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Court Blocks Controversial New Patent Rules

An anonymous reader writes "InformationWeek is reporting that a court in Virginia has issued an injunction against controversial new patent rules that were supposed to go into effect tomorrow. The court granted a motion filed by GlaxoSmithKline, which is suing the US patent office over the issue. Among other things, the new rules would limit the extent to which existing patent applications can be modified. The patent office says the new rules would speed up the patent process, but critics say they hurt inventors."

119 comments

  1. Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Having submitted several patents through my company, I can attest that they need to be rewritten all the time because patent reviewers are idiots. They take a one sentence claim, pick a two 'big' words out it and do a literature search. If those two words appear in any publication remotely related to the field related to your patent, they mark it as prior art.

    1. Re:Playing devil's advocate by cromar · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's interesting. You'd think "one click" would have turned up in their search.

    2. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll give you an example. If you claim you have discovered a novel way to screen for a cancer, say pancreatic cancer, in a tissue sample using some lab technique, say PCR, the patent clerk is going to hand you back the first published article that mentions pancreatic cancer and PCR, even when the paper is discussing something like a pathway involved pancreatic cancer and PCR is mentioned in the materials and methods section.

      I have had patents rejected in very similar circumstances.

    3. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not yours apparently...

    4. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Surt · · Score: 1

      The obvious key problem being that one is not a very long word. Even click at 5 letters is hardly a big winner for scrabble.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    5. Re:Playing devil's advocate by theantipop · · Score: 1

      Because pretending to play devil's advocate as a means to backup Slashdot groupthink gets you modded up. Questioning it gets you modded troll.

    6. Re:Playing devil's advocate by megaditto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't you think patenting PCR as a tool to screen for cancer is still insanely broad?

      You really should be trying to patent a sequence of your gene transcript (GATTACATACA...) as it applies to pancreatic cancer, and not the entire PCR technique.

      It's not exactly the breakthrough of the century these days that PCR might be used in some way to screen for cancer, you know.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    7. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 3, Informative

      I guess my point was that if you refer to common things (to those skilled in the trade) in your claims, you are going to get hit with prior art because the reviewer latches on to those things not understanding what they are. If in your claim you write "for example, pancreatic cancer", they tend to think that is to the focus of the claim when it isn't. The prior art is going to be the thousands of published articles that just happen to mention both those terms.

      Either way, you can take decades old technology and discover novel, patentable ways to use it. My example was contrived, sure.

    8. Re:Playing devil's advocate by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 4, Funny

      Having submitted several patents through my company, I can attest that they need to be rewritten all the time because patent reviewers are idiots. They take a one sentence claim, pick a two 'big' words out it and do a literature search. If those two words appear in any publication remotely related to the field related to your patent, they mark it as prior art.

      Hence the patent attempts for "rotational conveyance devices", whatever those are...

    9. Re:Playing devil's advocate by nwssa · · Score: 1

      shouldn't matter, the examiners are assigned fields or categories they are experts in.

    10. Re:Playing devil's advocate by ppanon · · Score: 1

      Either way, you can take decades old technology and discover novel, patentable ways to use it.
      A number of people would dispute whether that's an appropriate use of the patent system. For drugs that may only be approved by the FDA for a particular use and that need to go through significant additional testing for new uses, it's debatable that those new uses should be patentable to support the costs of the additional testing required by government regulation.

      But with most patentable items it's the creation of the tools and the refinement of a manufacturing technique that takes all the work. If somebody creates a manufacturing process for a novel variation for a tip on an AFM that provides new functionality, then they should be able to get a patent on it. If somebody finds a novel use for a stock OTS atomic force microscope (say writing things by moving xenon atoms around at temperatures near absolute zero), I don't see why they should be granted a patent for that use. But if they use an AFM to build a molecular scale structure to extrude arbitrary length nanotubes, they should be allowed to patent the tube-extrusion process.

      That may not be the way patents work now of course, but it's the way they should work. It shouldn't be possible to patent a novel method of using an existing tool.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    11. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing that you have never actually written a claim for a patent application, because "for example, X" is an almost guaranteed rejection under 35 USC 112 second paragraph as set forth in MPEP 2173.05(d).

    12. Re:Playing devil's advocate by schon · · Score: 1

      you can take decades old technology and discover novel, patentable ways to use it. ... on the internet for example?
    13. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Znork · · Score: 1

      Actually, it did. However, Amazon sent in several revised iterations with various unicode variants of letters that sorta look like 'one click', until, eventually, it didnt turn up.

      Think '0ne c1ick'.

    14. Re:Playing devil's advocate by EdelFactor19 · · Score: 1

      sounds like the real problem here is poor reviewing, and not that the patent itself really needs to be changed. More annoying i would imagine is that after you edit to get around this "stopping point" they finally will bring up the next one.. just a hunch

      --
      "Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
      EdelFactor
    15. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If by "one sentence" you really mean "one line" (all claims are "one sentence, even the long ones") then you deserved to receive exactly what you got. A "one line" claim would be obscenely overly broad and reallistically, the laws should be such that if an atty. filed something like that, that the atty. not only should the lose their licence to practice patent law, but they should lose their licence to practice any law whatsoever.

    16. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 1

      You are right, I have never written a claim. However they land on my desk for review. Usually I spend about 10 minutes going over the application and basically note items that stretch the truth. When they get rejected, I point those items out. I could give two shits about patents, but I am not going to blab on and on to the hand that feeds me about some some half wit notion that IP is bad. Because it isn't. And when you type your fucked up response about how IP should be free, please note that with every keystroke you are using patented technology invented by someone who is way smarter than you are. Why should I give a fuck if the inventor on my BIOS gets 3 cents royalty for every board sold?

    17. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what makes you think, based on my response, that I have fucked up opinions on how IP should be free. I don't think people with those beliefs would have much knowledge of the MPEP. Patents are how I make a living.

  2. Bad for inventors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    All I hear are the cries of patent trolls saying "Won't someone please think of the children^W inventors!"

    1. Re:Bad for inventors? by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's the number one way to fight for something that the facts tend to be against. If you're on the wrong side of the facts you can't exactly make an Argument from Logos. You may or may not be able to make an argument from Ethos, depending on how well known you are, patent trolls tend to be unknown or disliked, so they can't use that.

      They're left with just Pathos, trying to get people emotionally rallied behind an argument by asking them to think about what effect (insert strawman that's highly unlikely to happen but sounds like what the other side is arguing for) will have on (insert group that looks small and poor, someone whose life depends on the current system).

      It's the same system the RIAA uses, some argue the government does the same thing (I happen to agree), it's the last argument of those unable to argue from reason, as such it's used a lot by groups who are heavily disliked as they have nothing else to turn to.

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    2. Re:Bad for inventors? by megaditto · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Signature character limit? His seems to be exactly 120 chars without "e"

      No, I did not count them by hand: #wc -c

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    3. Re:Bad for inventors? by nwssa · · Score: 1

      Both sides voiced their opinions to the courts and small and independent software groups were victorious today, and large software companies were defeated (for now). Unfortunately the trolls give small companies a bad name in innovation and patents.

    4. Re:Bad for inventors? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, anything bad for the trolls is ultimately bad for the consumer. The trolls are what show how broken the patent system is at a fundamental level. Thus, patches that prevent the patent trolls may prevent some of the more egregious bad behavior, but do nothing to fix the underlying problem, making the real victims of the broken patent system essentially powerless to get anything done to fix it.

      Who are the real victims of the patent system as it stands? Innovation, consumer rights, human health and safety, and legitimate small inventors.

      • Innovaction: You can't come up with much of anything in the computing field without stepping all over patents. I'd imagine it is the same in every technical industry at this point. The result is that innovation that typically occurs by bringing new players into the field can no longer occur, or at least can only occur after protracted legal battles. (See AT&T v. Vonage, Verizon v. Vonage, etc.)
      • Consumer rights: Big companies routinely patent things not because they are actually designing things for the consumer, but rather to prevent their invention by third parties. The result is that we pay more, get less, and have no idea what we're missing. Again, see the lawsuits against Vonage for a prime example of this.
      • Human health and safety: Big pharmaceutical companies have no incentive to cure disease; they can make more money by treating it forever (or at least until the patents expire, at which point, they miraculously find something wrong with the treatment and pay out a huge settlement that is tiny compared to the amount of money that they made.... Rinse and repeat). As a result, it seems that on a fairly frequent basis, we hear stories of potential cures for diseases that are announced, then bought by major pharmaceutical companies and buried. Then, there are the AIDS drugs that are heavily patented and priced so high that countries in Africa who are plagued by the disease can't obtain them. There are countless other issues as well.
      • Legitimate small inventors: Again, it is almost impossible to create anything new in most industries without running afoul of hundreds or even thousands of (mostly frivolous) patents, most of which are held by large corporations that could sue you into oblivion without batting an eye.

      I'm not sure what needs to be done to fix the patent system, but it is in need of a very massive overhaul, and every time I see a story about patches, I get nervous. The only thing tilting the balance towards big corporations seeing the brokenness of the system and lobbying to fix it are these incessant patent trolls that sue the big corporations. As long as we live in a heavily corporate-run state (which we do, sadly), those corporations are the only entities that can reasonably push to get this heinous crime of a patent system fixed.

      What we need are more patent trolls---hundreds of times more. We need every company to start seeing patents as a liability just as independent inventors do now. Only then will we start to see any real reform... hopefully ending with tort reform....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:Bad for inventors? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Oh, yeah, and not just AIDS drugs. There have been some rather significant patent disputes causing the potential for life-threatening delays in developing and deploying Smallpox vaccines, Anthrax vaccines, and so on. I almost forgot about the "terror-related" patent issues. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:Bad for inventors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An intelligent man thinks that all men are intelligent. A pious man thinks all men are pious. You are a rational man.

      You're right, but for the wrong reasons. People use Pathos because it works. Doesn't matter if there really is a logical argument for what you are advocating. Take smoking. While I'm not big on how far people take smoking witch hunts, it is worth pointing out that the surgeon general's warning on packs of cigarettes started in the early 1980's. And had no effect whatsoever. People didn't listen to the entirely rational argument of "This is bad for you".

      Now, as soon as people began trotting out tearful children, like so many circus ponies, bemoaning how Daddy died because of smoking, and how they miss him *so* much*, then we began to see an impact.

      That's just one argument- there are others. Many, many others. Look at politics in general. Why make a point and defend it when it's so much easier to get people to hate the enemy tribe? Anyone seen the new wave of Meth commercials in the U.S.? Advertising in general- why claim a product actually does something? Especially since then you might be held responsible for actually delivering a product that meets those claims. Far easier to pay some empty headed, spoiled brat of a teenage pop star to claim that your product is cool. More effective, too.

  3. Please... by iamacat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Name at least one genuine inventor who put in the hard work, personally received at least 10% of license revenues and did not take advantage of other people's work by patenting vaporware and waiting for someone else to build an actual product. Current patent system only benefits large companies by driving startups out of business by requiring prohibitive legal costs to ship any product. Lets cut the crap about benefitting the little guys.

    1. Re:Please... by TheMeuge · · Score: 2

      Jan Vilcek -> Remicaid.

    2. Re:Please... by iamacat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While he certainly financially benefited from his invention, is it really fair to patent something created on taxpayer dime, student tuition, university equipment and probably work of many (post)graduate students who were not in any way compensated for their contributions?

    3. Re:Please... by steveshaw · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I personally know of dozens of "little guys" for whom the patent system has provided massive benefits. I know because I drafted their patents and helped them with the sale/licensing. Ask most any patent attorney and they will have the same report.

      Please stop believing all the /. FUD regarding patents and IP in general.

      On another note, from the perspective of a patent attorney, these Proposed Rules are a nightmare. This Preliminary Injunction was a great thing, and anybody who has any thought of ever filing a patent application should be glad they've been stopped.

    4. Re:Please... by iamacat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ask most any patent attorney ...

      That's my point about legal costs. Can I afford your services to patent a dozen inventions and then get Microsoft to license one they are infringing on?

    5. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, let's see... you:

      1) have avoided the question by not naming even one such person/patent as the parent requested

      2) have a huge vested interest, as you depend upon the existing patent system, and your experience in navigating its legalities, to make a living

      Why should we take your entirely unsubstantiated assertion as anything else?

    6. Re:Please... by steveshaw · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Can you afford not to patent your dozen inventions and watch as you release your product(s) and Microsoft simply incorporates them into their latest product(s) without paying you dime 1? The vast majority of companies will not even look at a product for potential licensing unless patent protection is at least an option. Before you even start negotiating with a company, they are going to want to see that you have either filed one or more patent applications or done a prior art search (bad idea, by the way).

      What's your alternative? Should I work for free? Abolish the patent system? What are your ideas for reform? Have you ever filed a patent application?

      Legal costs are simply part of doing business in a civilized society that uses courts of law to protect rights and enforce standards of conduct. You seem like a smart guy, draft your own patent applications if you can't afford my expertise.

    7. Re:Please... by vertinox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you afford not to patent your dozen inventions and watch as you release your product(s) and Microsoft simply incorporates them into their latest product(s) without paying you dime 1?

      Not if you don't have enough money to pay for patent lawyers to outlast their patent lawyers. If it is Microsoft we are talking about, I bet they could drag the case out for years without paying a dime while you're burning away my life savings paying a lawyer. You might win, but then they'll keep appealing and try to get you to settle.

      The point of this issue is that when you have that much money to kill you can get your way no matter what.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    8. Re:Please... by steveshaw · · Score: 1
      Well, let's see...

      1. The identity of my clients is protected by attorney/client privilege; and

      2. I don't practice patent law in my current position, so I don't have a vested interest in it to make a living.

      Any other completely asinine comments you wish to make that have no real relation whatsoever to my original post other than to serve as a pathetic attempt to discredit the messenger?

    9. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please stop believing all the /. FUD regarding patents and IP in general.
      There are plenty of examples where the current system is failing to do its job. That isn't FUD, it's reality. There is something very wrong with the way patents are being issued/approved that makes it far too easy to prevent innovation because of an overly vague patent claim. That of course, is contrary to the purpose of a patent. To give an inventor extra incentive to innovate; this is null and void if an ultra-broad patent claim encompasses all conceivable combinations none of which were discovered by the owner of the patent.
    10. Re:Please... by steveshaw · · Score: 1

      If it is Microsoft we are talking about, I bet they could drag the case out for years without paying a dime while you're burning away my life savings paying a lawyer. You might win, but then they'll keep appealing and try to get you to settle. The point of this issue is that when you have that much money to kill you can get your way no matter what.

      But that isn't limited to Patent law. It's true for all areas of the law, but I can tell you from experience that it isn't as pronounced a problem in Patent law as it is in general civil litigation.

      The Proposed Rules (which are the point of the article, after all) have absolutely nothing to do with your (valid) concern.

    11. Re:Please... by immcintosh · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure whether most people complaining around here care whether it's the little guys or the big guys reaping the benefits of a broken patent system. I'd be willing to wager good money that if, say, some Joe Schmoe patented something absurd/pointless/obvious and proceeded to sue Microsoft over it, aside from the outliers the majority of /. would come down on the side of Microsoft.

      Pointing out that, "Hey, this little guy made big bucks from the patent system," is something of a non-sequitur from the arguments I generally see being made. Or, to put it another way, One-Click patented out of somebody's garage is just as ridiculous as out of a major company like Amazon.

      On another note, from the perspective of a patent attorney, these Proposed Rules are a nightmare. This Preliminary Injunction was a great thing, and anybody who has any thought of ever filing a patent application should be glad they've been stopped.
      Sorry to be blunt, but realistically as a patent attorney I imagine you're interested in cramming as many patents through the system as you can find clients to charge for them. I would definitely argue that the convenience of patent attorneys and everybody who's got an idea they just really think is great is not something the public should be overly concerned about. There are bigger issues at stake.
    12. Re:Please... by rmerry72 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Legal costs are simply part of doing business in a civilized society that uses courts of law to protect rights and enforce standards of conduct. You seem like a smart guy, draft your own patent applications if you can't afford my expertise.

      The fact that an ordinary smart guy can't draft their own patent applications - as you imply - demonstrates the fallacy that this great society is so civilised. If an ordinary "smart" Joe can't file the appropriate paperwork to protect his efforts and concerns of being swamped then I put forward the system has failed.

      The fact that an ordinary nuclear family "needs" a financial advisor just to get them through the hurdles of our financial system in order to get ahead, demonstrates a large failure of our financial system. Think of it as a computer system that needs a large number of sys admins and programmers just to keep the thing running and how poorly designed we all know them to be (how many of them have we bemoaned). Good systems run themselves providing efficiencies of scale with minimal overheads. Civic systems are the same else they are of little good to the little guy.

      Who would own a car if you needed a mechanic to spend an hour a day performing maintainence on it for you and a driver to operate it? Not the ordinary person. Only rich folk and corporations would use them - as they once did in the early days.

      Patent system is the same. If it's harder to file a patent claim then it is to invent new technologies and products then there is little money to be gained from releasing your invention into the wild. That's why I build systems for myself, my family and friends. Somebody else can come up with their own ideas for the rest of humanity.

      --
      We do not inherit the Earth from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
    13. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Any other completely asinine comments you wish to make that have no real relation whatsoever to my original post other than to serve as a pathetic attempt to discredit the messenger?"

      Considering how asinine your original post was, and its refusal (which you prolong) to answer the question to which it pretended to reply, you're in no position to feign the high ground.

      As the first poster expressed, the patent system as it exists is primarily to the benefit of the already wealthy. He/she asked for a counterexample, which you were unable to provide despite being, apparently, extremely eager to dismiss the concern as "FUD."

      As for your current reply to my #2, I apologize for incorrectly accusing you of being a self-interested patent attorney -- as you now state that you are no longer one. Nonetheless, when you claim to have a certain authority in order to lend your statements credibility, you must expect to have that claim stand as it was expressed; otherwise you must correct it as a misleading claim, or you must admit to some hypocrisy.

      The fact that you have presented yourself as a former patent attorney (in an appeal to authority, hoping it will give your arguments more force) is particularly damning since absolutely nothing in your argument follows from that by necessity -- except, of course, your unsupported and meaningless claim to 'personally know of dozens of "little guys" for whom the patent system has provided massive benefits.'

    14. Re:Please... by steveshaw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry to be blunt, but realistically as a patent attorney I imagine you're interested in cramming as many patents through the system as you can find clients to charge for them. I would definitely argue that the convenience of patent attorneys and everybody who's got an idea they just really think is great is not something the public should be overly concerned about. There are bigger issues at stake.

      Well, you would be wrong about what I was interested in when I drafted and prosecuted patents, but I don't expect you to take my word for it. I turned away many people who wanted to file patent applications on ridiculously obvious inventions and inventions that were clearly anticipated by other patents. You're basically calling me a charlatan, a rip-off artist who will take anybody's money regardless of the benefit to my customer. I know lawyers are scum and all, but I never wanted to take money from somebody unless I genuinely believed they were getting good value for it.

      Back to the point of the article, why these Proposed Rules are a bad thing, from a Patent Attorney perspective and the perspective of anybody who deals with the USPTO, boils down to this: they will not solve the problem they are meant to address, which is relieving the backlog of applications.

      In a nutshell, they will basically take some pressure off of the Examining Corps at the USPTO and shift a greater burden onto the Appeals division. It will cost patent applicants more money, take more time, create more uncertainty, and not improve patent quality one bit (which is a goal I support).

    15. Re:Please... by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      The point of this issue is that when you have that much money to kill you can get your way no matter what.

      That doesn't seem to have worked against Eolas yet.

      Generally though I agree; in any non-trivial case, victory often goes to the side with the deepest pockets. That's true of more than just patent disputes though, and is a problem with your legal system, not your patent system.

    16. Re:Please... by steveshaw · · Score: 1

      The fact that you have presented yourself as a former patent attorney (in an appeal to authority, hoping it will give your arguments more force) is particularly damning since absolutely nothing in your argument follows from that by necessity -- except, of course, your unsupported and meaningless claim to 'personally know of dozens of "little guys" for whom the patent system has provided massive benefits.'

      You mean except the claim that is both directly relevant to and directly answers the question you accuse me of ducking, namely, "Name at least one genuine inventor who put in the hard work, personally received at least 10% of license revenues and did not take advantage of other people's work by patenting vaporware and waiting for someone else to build an actual product?"

      That claim, that I know of at least 1 such person? The one that follows by necessity, that I know these people because I was their Patent Attorney and helped them personally receive at least 10% of license revenues and know that they did not take advantage of other people's work by patenting vaporware and waiting for someone else to build an actual product?

      If you don't believe me, that's fine. Just admit that you're trolling me simply because you have an ulterior motive, such as you despise attorneys and/or hate the patent system, and not because I declined to list the names and addresses of people satisfying the initial question.

    17. Re:Please... by nwssa · · Score: 1

      show me a little guy that without patent protection can develop & market something truly innovative and not be quickly copied-pasted into the next release of a larger company product with the marketing muscle.

    18. Re:Please... by nwssa · · Score: 1

      Not if you don't have enough money to pay for patent lawyers to outlast their patent lawyers. If it is Microsoft we are talking about, I bet they could drag the case out for years without paying a dime while you're burning away my life savings paying a lawyer. You might win, but then they'll keep appealing and try to get you to settle. This is inherent to the american judical system. If you have a valid patent then you have several options:
      • settle out of court (most often best option for both sides anyways)
      • fight them in court
      • admit defeat and abandon
      If you decide to fight them in court then don't forget there are law firms that will work on contingent basis anyways (sure at non-trivial percentage and that's why I suggest option #1 is usually better route). Patents help the smaller guy innovating and improving civilization. Otherwise explain to me why overwhelmingly it was the larger software companies standing behind these new rules?
    19. Re:Please... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Um, what? Your whole post reads like a non sequitur. I mean, a few hours a year with a professional finance guy or getting a patent lawyer isn't equivalent to an hour a day and a driver for a car. You probably spend more on your car in a year than you would pay for filing a patent, which according to a friend of the family, that is a patent attorney, most of the cost is searching existing patents to make sure it hasn't already been filed.

      I don't understand how your mention of "building systems" is even relevant. It's not that special of an idea. You screw together a few parts, none of those parts are anything you could possibly make on your own.

      If it's really easier to make an invention than it is to file its patent, I think a lot of Slashdotters would argue that it's probably not that patentable anyway.

    20. Re:Please... by nwssa · · Score: 1
      Actually any ordinary smart guy can draft their own patent application (or at the very least a Provisional and test the market).

      Patent system is the same. If it's harder to file a patent claim then it is to invent new technologies and products then there is little money to be gained from releasing your invention into the wild.

      Sure there needs to be a balance between protecting the small guy from the big companies that without a patent system would just lie and wait for the truly innovative competitors to emerge and then copy-paste them and release in their own next product version.

    21. Re:Please... by bigpicture · · Score: 1

      And what actual benefit (making life better for someone) were these patent designed products to anyone besides the patent holders. Were these patented "pet rocks", or "stuffed elephants" or "stretchy candies".

      You are taking the usual Lawyer position, please don't make my job redundant. If people were actually not selfish and greedy, and of high character what actual use would we have for Lawyers. Could we pretty not reach amicable agreement about everything?

    22. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean except the claim that is both directly relevant to and directly answers the question you accuse me of ducking, namely, "Name at least one genuine inventor who put in the hard work, personally received at least 10% of license revenues and did not take advantage of other people's work by patenting vaporware and waiting for someone else to build an actual product?"

      That claim, that I know of at least 1 such person? The one that follows by necessity, that I know these people because I was their Patent Attorney and helped them personally receive at least 10% of license revenues and know that they did not take advantage of other people's work by patenting vaporware and waiting for someone else to build an actual product?

      Do you understand that you presented this claim when it had absolutely no bearing on the actual dispute -- except to introduce an unverifiable assertion, like almost all such assertions of the patent system's value to "little guys"?

      And do you understand my accusation? It is that you were using your misleading statements to trick the audience into giving your arguments more credit than they deserve. If you reread your original post, you will see it directly implied that you are a currently practicing patent attorney. Never did you mention that you're no longer a patent attorney, until you found it useful to further distract from the main argument in your response to my #2 point earlier.

      The fundamental argument, which was presented by the first comment in this thread... and which you have managed to sidestep so swiftly in every post... is about whether there are any actual examples of genuine inventors who personally received at least 10% of license revenues, were not patent trolls, and were not already large companies.

      If you don't believe me, that's fine.

      It's not a question of whether I believe you or not; it is a question of whether your argument is based on logical reasoning from the facts. It is clear that you cannot disclose any facts you might have available, for reasons of attorney/client privilege, but you must see that the sword cuts both ways; you cannot then use this secret information to bolster your position, as you have tried to do.

      Just admit that you're trolling me simply because you have an ulterior motive, such as you despise attorneys and/or hate the patent system, and not because I declined to list the names and addresses of people satisfying the initial question.

      An "ulterior motive" like my disagreement with you? Yes, I disagree with the current patent system, and I think I've made that clear in my posts. Calling that which is blatantly clear "ulterior" only betrays a profound distrust of dictionaries.

      "Trolling" as in stating clearly, with attention to each point raised, why I disagree with your support of the patent system and your dismissal of its criticism as "FUD"? If anyone is being trolled here, it's me.

      So, once again, back to the original question which you refuse to answer, and yet which you keep pretending to have answered with each successive post: are there actual examples of genuine inventors who personally received at least 10% of license revenues, were not patent trolls, and were not already large companies?
    23. Re:Please... by nwssa · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure whether most people complaining around here care whether it's the little guys or the big guys reaping the benefits of a broken patent system. I'd be willing to wager good money that if, say, some Joe Schmoe patented something absurd/pointless/obvious and proceeded to sue Microsoft over it, aside from the outliers the majority of /. would come down on the side of Microsoft.
      Well for starters you said it yourself "around here". That wraps up the lopsided view held by most slashdotters, I'm sorry but it's the truth - anyone pro-patent is modded down and anti-patent is modded up. The validity or real insightfulness is directly related to the side taken.

      Regarding whether it's the little guys or big guys, which is worse - giving the big companies virtual control (without patent protection for little guy), or giving the small guy a fighting chance (with patent protection)?
    24. Re:Please... by rmerry72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You probably spend more on your car in a year than you would pay for filing a patent.

      I'd bloody well hope so, but then my car is a valuable tool I - and most other people in the free world - use daily to go about our lives. A patent is not.

      I don't understand how your mention of "building systems" is even relevant. It's not that special of an idea. You screw together a few parts, none of those parts are anything you could possibly make on your own.

      It's the KISS principle, mate. Any moron can screw together a few parts that others have built. That just leads to piles of mess. Screwing together the right parts in the right way leads to new technologies and can lead to effecient, useful, systems that benefit all, including the common man.

      I've seen lots of the former and few of the latter. One of the ways of distinguishing between them is the amount of overhead and specialists required to use the system on a day to day basis by ordinary folk. High overheads are bad.

      The patent system, our financial system and most certainly our legal system (which underlie both) have very high overheads especially for the people that they are supposed to support - the common man. They both require more and more time of specialists - more overheads, wasted time and expense. The point of my post is that our civic systems are supposed to support the common man. As soon as it is required to spend hours/days/weeks and thousands of dollars on a specialist to use that system then the system is not able to be used by the common person effectively.

      If common folk can't use it - or it becomes a large burden - they won't. Then its just a game played by the corporates and specialists. That's a failed civic system and should be thrown away and rebuilt.

      --
      We do not inherit the Earth from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
    25. Re:Please... by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      There are many more examples of how the patent system worked. We don't trash something because it has failings, regardless of the cries of the Slashdotters. Most of whom, it seems, are interested in trashing the patent system because they like using other people's work for free.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    26. Re:Please... by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      So if only people weren't people, everything would be perfect?

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    27. Re:Please... by nwssa · · Score: 0

      I'd bloody well hope so, but then my car is a valuable tool I - and most other people in the free world - use daily to go about our lives. A patent is not.
      Today's average car is built with over 14,000 parts, a non-trivial amount of those parts are covered by patents, and the money was invested in innovating those parts because the investors had patent protection guarantee.

      As far as your ramblings on our financial and patent having high overheads - it may not be perfect but it's the best system in the world.
    28. Re:Please... by bigpicture · · Score: 1

      No, if people were perfect people, everything would be perfect.

    29. Re:Please... by greenbird · · Score: 1

      There are many more examples of how the patent system worked.

      Only if, as per your own examples, you believe the purpose of the patent system is give to a single individual long term extraordinary rights because he had an idea once. But unfortunately the (US) Constitutional purpose of the patent system is suppose to be to promote innovation which the current system is not just failing miserable at but is actually doing the opposite. I would challenge you that I could either discredit examples you provide where you claimed it served this purpose or provide a counter example for every example I couldn't easily discredit.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    30. Re:Please... by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      I am very sure there are any number of little guys who were helped by the patent system. And for that matter, big corporations, and even patent troll style IP firms who have benefited from it legitimately.

      I am equally sure, that were we to go tit for tat, with one side naming good results of patents, and the other naming bad ones, that, at least for recent years, the bad ones would easily be the majority. The problem is not the lawyers or corporations per se, but the lack of (affordable) controls for dumb, obvious, and compatability patents.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    31. Re:Please... by salesgeek · · Score: 1
      Should I work for free?

      No. Some processes like patent applications, incorporation and taxes feel to the average citizen as they are artificially difficult to the extent the government is using regulation to create a service industry. It's nothing personal, but why should I need a lawyer to tell the government about my invention and ask for the government to issue a patent? Why should I need a lawyer to dispute if a patent is obvious or to invalidate a patent because the patent is not new or novel?


      Abolish the patent system?

      I don't think many people really want patents to go away. Many people do see where perhaps the application and dispute process are artificially complex and not very do-it-yourself friendly. They also see things being patented that are painfully obvious. People also see patents being used to the detriment of mankind (patents for medications, high yield crops, etc...).


      --
      -- $G
    32. Re:Please... by Ox0065 · · Score: 1
      • IP exists to bring knowledge into the public domain, by granting the sharer of knowledge special privileges.
      • Written work is protected be copyright, not patents. I don't see how patenting software is different from patenting the content of an e-book in short-hand (other than that a lawyer/judge probably more readily recognises short-hand as written word)

      Whether or not you agree, given (assuming) the above:

      • getting a patent should be trivial (see, on topic) and
      • getting IP protection for software should involve publishing source, whether you view it as a mechanism or a written work. Yes, yes, innovation. If they refuse to share, why should we care? Why grant the special privilege? Why should society support their development of trade secrets, if they refuse to support society's development of knowledge?

      I'm annoyed by this American re-framing of IP, to obsess over supporting innovation with complete disregard to combating guilds and trade secrets.

      --
      thx e
    33. Re:Please... by stiggle · · Score: 1

      Trevor Baylis (clockwork radio).
      James Dyson (Ballbarrow - wheelbarrow with a ball as the front wheel, cyclonic vacuum cleaner).

      Both have developed ideas into products from their own companies after other companies rejected or tried to steal their ideas.

      But they're not American, they are British.

    34. Re:Please... by mavenguy · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've heard that this would not take pressure off examiners, but just the reverse. Current continuation practice (I lump in RCEs with continuations) effectively give examiners more time to work on a given disclosure since the continuations give the examiner the same two counts plus the benefit of an already developed prosecution history; properly used this enables the examiner to devote more time on the application. I read about one experienced examiner who counts on this and allocates her time to do a more thorough search and first action, leading either to allowance on the second action or a justified final rejection. If the applicant wants to present a claim which has not been vetted beforehand, or is not clearly allowable without a further search, or might require a new rejection not of record, entry is refused, applicant files an RCE and so the prosecution continues.

      Take away the supply of RCE "counts" leaves the examiner to have to make up production just on new applications meaning there is less time, on average, to learn the case, make the search, etc. The result will be less effective time to work on each disclosure as the harsh production requirment starts to bite, leading to less quality.

      This rule change (Along with the IDS changes that are due Real Soon Now) will not have any improvment on patent quality, and will even drive lesser quality if examiners are effectively forced to spend less time per application, not to mention the administrative fallout of more rules and proceedures to follow that don't contribute in any meaningful way to patent quality

    35. Re:Please... by bloobloo · · Score: 1

      I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. I drafted a patent application (WO/2007/039764) - the key point is to make sure everything is written as clearly and unambiguously as possible. This is through my employment rather than doing it individually but the principle is the same.

      The problem is that every country has its own patent system, so you need several applications, with different rules for each. For example, in the US and only in the US the applicant can't be a company but instead you have to apply for the patent and then after that it is transferred to the company (generally for one dollar). Each country charges its fees and carries out an examination. Now, if you are interested in small scale work in your own country it would be eminently doable, but in a business such as the one I'm in, all your customers are international and so you do need the international protection. As with any international legal work you can't know the individual rules of every country unless you're a specialist.

      As one of the earlier posters said, examiners aren't experts and so bring up apparent prior art which to the skilled man IS different. They raised any previous patents involving spirals and catalysts even if the concept was completely different (such as being used as an Archimedes Screw to lift pellets - an idea that's thousands of years old!)

    36. Re:Please... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      No. Those parts were invented because they are useful. Useful things
      will continue to get invented for the simple fact that people have
      work do do. The lack of a "carrot" in the form of some egregious
      state sanctioned monopoly will not eliminate the need that genuinely
      drives innovation.

      Necessity is the mother of invention, not avarice.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    37. Re:Please... by torokun · · Score: 1

      Everyone agrees that _excessive_ complexity is a bad thing, but in some cases, complexity is good. You wouldn't argue that all software should be simple enough for the ordinary person to understand the _code_ would you?

      Writing a patent is like coding in many ways. You need to figure out how to describe the important features of an invention with the proper scope, and how to describe the important connections between the elements of the invention. It is not easy for most ordinary people to do something like that. Even engineers have a hard time until they become experienced in what sort of thinking is required.

    38. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You argue against yourself. Most people *cannot* maintain their own systems. They have /. geeks in the family to come and wipe the crud out of their systems and get them working. Most people have no idea where a spark plug goes, much less maintain a car themselves.

      You want stuff for free. Plain and simple. Own up to it. Commie. Everyone else's work and effort, bah, that's easy. Of course, whatever it is you do, I'm sure you're getting just or not enough compensation.

      It's the same old meme here. People do not value others' work in general, and to get any respect from the "That's nothing, I could do that, probably better" /. group of toppers would likely require coming up with a solar powered teleporter that cures cancer and provides immortality and is given out to /. members for free. No doubt some genius here will complain it doesn't come in a color he likes, and he could have done it better anyway, because look, he put neon glow lights in his.

      The division of labor in this world, while not perfect in and of itself, has allowed all of us to better concentrate on our specialties. I don't pretend to say that all financial planners are just a sap on the world, or lawyers or anything else. They have expertise. Many of them spend life times collecting it. That's what it often takes to get through life. I know you might prefer a life where you only need the teletubby levels of experience to understand and navigate through every aspect of life, but that's not the way it works.

      Yelling at the Sun for not making it somehow simpler for us to enjoy free fusion energy is not too far off from what youre espousing. Granted, all the things you mention can stand improvement. Here's a news flash, almost everything in life can stand improvement. Hopefully you won't mind if I don't pay attention to analysis on topics from those that have no depth of experience and actually listen to people in the field where they do have experience.

      Yea yea. Those people are all shills that want to make the world die, and apparently only you and the rest of the clucking /.'rs that rail against everything are intelligent enough to spot that, filter that, and present it to the rest of the unwashed idiots. How kind.

      Get sober. Somethings are complex and that's not a bad thing. Some systems need to be complex, and you need competent people that can handle and thrive in that complexity to move humanity forward. Computer folks deal with complex systems. They make these complex systems achieve great things. Not everything is reducible to a Steve Jobs/George Jetson single button push to "do what you want." And I'd argue, many of the greatest things were tackled by groups of people that thrived on managing complexity. From the landing on the moon, to making various Unices, to creating communications systems, to creating power systems, to managing inter-relations between various sovereign countries with greatly differing cultures/ideologies/goals, advances in medicine, etc. etc.

      So while I'm not advocating it's good to have some Byzantine tax/legal/financial systems, I am not so Pollyanna to think that its a bad thing in an of itself. The super range of financial vehicles is a good thing. It lets capital flow more freely. It lets people with different needs invest differently. So the fact that you might need a financial planner who has experience/knowledge of the wide array of options that benefit many people is *not* a bad thing. Just because you don't want to pay them for their advice, doesn't make it a bad thing. And just because you cannot learn in a week what they learned over years does not make it a bad system. /. readers suffer from the american disease of "if I cannot get it down in a sound byte, it all must be bs." Some times that's true. Many times it's not. When you mistake the situation, you suffer the consequences. And when you do not heed the opinions of professionals (of course with sacks of salt and common sense thrown in, in gauging their self interest) and push forward an agenda having no experience in an area, you may be marching towards a situation of "be careful what you wish for."

    39. Re:Please... by imgunby · · Score: 1

      Who would own a car if you needed a mechanic to spend an hour a day performing maintainence on it for you and a driver to operate it? Not the ordinary person. Only rich folk and corporations would use them - as they once did in the early days.

      hahahaha... you've clearly never owned an MG

    40. Re:Please... by rmerry72 · · Score: 1

      No. Those parts were invented because they are useful. Useful things will continue to get invented for the simple fact that people have work do do. The lack of a "carrot" in the form of some egregious state sanctioned monopoly will not eliminate the need that genuinely drives innovation.

      Yes, the probably would have been invented as they are useful and would have been needed by some smart guy. Or even just wanted or stumbled upon. But the "carrot" of patenting is the ability to make money of the invention, and that's what's needed to encourage smart guys to tell other people about there invention and allow others then to mass-produce and market it. Bragging rights and ego only go so far. Without that the average person never sees the invention, and so others don't buld on that invention and invent more complicated stuff and society doesn't advance.

      The smart guys will always invent new stuff to solve their problems. All throughout history many have done this. With think of them as "ahead of their time". In reality, everybody else is just behind.

      --
      We do not inherit the Earth from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
    41. Re:Please... by rmerry72 · · Score: 1

      Everyone agrees that _excessive_ complexity is a bad thing, but in some cases, complexity is good. You wouldn't argue that all software should be simple enough for the ordinary person to understand the _code_ would you?

      A good point and I agree. Excessive is the key word.

      For maintaining software I'd expect a suitably skilled software engineer with enough domain knowledge should be able to make at least small changes to the code base with enough confidence that things won't break. And how many systems need "the guy that wrote it"?

      For using the software then any person with training in the concepts that the software is designed for should be able to use it. CAD should be usable for any architect or mechanical draftsman, office software for any office worker, without the need for a software engineer pushing the mouse for you.

      Let the lawyers, patent experts and politicians maintain and fix the patent system. But the patent system is for the ordinary inventor, and if they can't use it fairly effectively without masses of specialists. then I'd argue the system is excessively complicated.

      --
      We do not inherit the Earth from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
    42. Re:Please... by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Ballbarrow sounds legit, but where exactly is innovation in the clockwork radio? It is a trivial combination of two concepts widely used before and any reasonable person would come up with the same design given the task parameters (crank-powered radio, no batteries or capacitors).

    43. Re:Please... by rmerry72 · · Score: 1

      A -1 rated Anonymous Coward post so I shouldn't even consider this as a worthy comment, but then again...

      People do not value others' work in general, and to get any respect from the "That's nothing, I could do that, probably better" /. group of toppers...

      You're right in a sense here. I don't value other people's work in general. Most of the jobs I see around society I probably can do better than those that are doing them, given proper training. Most people are lazy, prepared only to do the minimal amount of work at any given task, with little thought for tomorrow or how it makes other lives easier or harder. They aren't prepared to think about what their doing, and certainly can't be bothered inventing better ways of doing it nor tools that could be used.

      Most people never create anything in their whole lives. They simply buy it from a store or ask a family friend to build/fix/create it for them. They don't want to invent or create - they want to use. Give 'em all big screen TVs, a comfy couch and an internal drip and they'd be happy to live out their existence never budging.

      The Matrix had it right. Most of humanity really are nothing more than chemical batteries. And most of humanity don't read /. (thank fuck)

      So the fact that you might need a financial planner who has experience/knowledge of the wide array of options that benefit many people is *not* a bad thing.

      Yes it is. Money is an overhead. Manging money is an overhead. It interferes with achieving. Fact is its a necessary overhead due to the nature of humans. People should be encouraged to build and create as a way to improve their lives and society, rather than focussing on the value of their assets.

      Managing finance in this day and age is a more massive overhead then it should be cause the financial system is far to complex. Its so easy to do nothing more than work that system - be very wealthy and buy all you want - and achieve nothing in your entire life. Why build anything, when if you know and work the money system you can simply buy it? Let others do the hard work, eh, while we just watch our big screen TVs?

      --
      We do not inherit the Earth from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
    44. Re:Please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure anything will change patent quality as long as horribly ambiguous languages, such as english, are used to express them. Patents should be expressed mathematically with a grammar that does not resemble natural language. Then we could better compare two patents. Of course they'd be even harder to read and understand but at least they'd be unambiguous.

      Naturally the lawyers won't go for this because lawyers love ambiguity. Also I bet that, with the exception of arithmetic, most lawyers have stopped using their math skills (gotta be able to count the money).

      IANAL. IANAM.

    45. Re:Please... by nwssa · · Score: 0

      Trevor Baylis (clockwork radio).
      James Dyson (Ballbarrow - wheelbarrow with a ball as the front wheel, cyclonic vacuum cleaner). Exactly, you've just shown 2 tiny examples with limited potential $revenues. If he hasn't been copied yet it is because the larger companies have lower hanging fruit to grab at.
  4. A much better explanation of this case: by KiahZero · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2007/10/surprise-pto-co.html

    Interesting that there were no amicus briefs for the Patent Office.

    --
    I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
  5. Capitalism requires clear ownership by whoever57 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of the tenets of the capitalist system is clear ownership of property. How can one invest if the ownership can be taken away.

    Yet, the current patent system dies exactly this. The abuses that are possible under the current system allow for someone to develop a product and later, through the monopoly granted under the patent system, effectively have that intellectual property taken away.

    The problems are many: submarine patents, the fact that the possible award of punitive damages discourages searches for pre-existing patents, the over-broad patents that may or may not apply. Uncertainty kills investment and the current patent system provides plenty of uncertainty.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:Capitalism requires clear ownership by schon · · Score: 1

      One of the tenets of the capitalist system is clear ownership of property. How can one invest if the ownership can be taken away.

      Yet, the current patent system dies exactly this. So... you're claiming that the current patent system is broken because patents expire, and therefore the Constituion (on which this facet of patent law is based) is wrong?

      Yeah, good luck with that.
    2. Re:Capitalism requires clear ownership by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Shhhh! Don't give them any ideas! They're already trying to do that to copyright....

      :-D

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:Capitalism requires clear ownership by shentino · · Score: 1

      "Yet, the current patent system dies exactly this. The abuses that are possible under the current system allow for someone to develop a product and later, through the monopoly
      granted under the patent system, effectively have that intellectual property taken away."

      Um, shouldn't that like count as "prior art" or something?

      No, of course not. The court wants your evidence and it wants it now, or else you lose even if you are right. Worse yet, you don't even get to appeal, even if someone else ruined your case. The legal system is swamped...and worse yet I wouldn't put it past a megacorp (like microsoft for instance) to bribe a judge or jury.

  6. I'm curious... by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The new rules are intended to speed patent reviews by the chronically understaffed USPTO. Among other things, they limit so-called "continuing applications" through which inventors can modify existing patent applications. Murphy said the new rules would "severely limit the level of patent coverage you can get for an invention" if they are allowed to take effect.
    so basically the argument that is being made is that if company A patents a technology/drug whatever and finds a new use for it they can extend the patent to include that finding? To what end?

    The drug manufacturer contends that it, and other companies that invest heavily in research and development, needs the freedom to broaden their patent claims when new applications for their inventions are discovered.
    so if someone other than them discovers a new application of their drug, who gets the rights to that finding? the company that developed the drug in the first place or the one that made use of it in a compeltely new way?
    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    1. Re:I'm curious... by steveshaw · · Score: 1

      If you're genuinely curious about this, feel free to shoot me an email. The explanation is beyond the scope of a /. post, at least it is for me right now.

    2. Re:I'm curious... by Janthkin · · Score: 3, Informative

      so basically the argument that is being made is that if company A patents a technology/drug whatever and finds a new use for it they can extend the patent to include that finding? To what end?

      Here's the 10 cent version: continuations are used when:
      a) your inventor comes up with a new way of extending his invention (continuation in part);
      b) you disclosed multiple distinct inventions in the original application, but only filed claims at one of them (continuation);
      c) the patent office is being dense, and you have to argue your claims repeatedly (request for continuing examination); or
      d) the patent office grants some of your claims, and you want to get an issued patent AND continue to argue about the others (continuation).

    3. Re:I'm curious... by wizardforce · · Score: 1

      Here's the 10 cent version: continuations are used when: a) your inventor comes up with a new way of extending his invention (continuation in part); b) you disclosed multiple distinct inventions in the original application, but only filed claims at one of them (continuation); c) the patent office is being dense, and you have to argue your claims repeatedly (request for continuing examination); or d) the patent office grants some of your claims, and you want to get an issued patent AND continue to argue about the others (continuation).
      ok I get that part, so would I be correct in saying that if Compay A patented something and Company B discovered a new use for company A's invention, it wouldn't be eligible for a continuation from Company A in regard to the patent? that in this case Company B could if they wanted, file a seperate patent detailing a new use/product etc. based in part on the first patent?
      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    4. Re:I'm curious... by wizardforce · · Score: 1

      thanks. I think by the looks of it, I'll need to do a lot more research. -wizardforce

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    5. Re:I'm curious... by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 1
      I am not a lawyer, but my take on this is:

      Here's the 10 cent version: continuations are used when:
      a) your inventor comes up with a new way of extending his invention (continuation in part);
      That sounds to me like it should be a completely new patent application.

      b) you disclosed multiple distinct inventions in the original application, but only filed claims at one of them (continuation);
      That too sounds like you should have to file a new application for the new inventions.

      c) the patent office is being dense, and you have to argue your claims repeatedly (request for continuing examination); or
      That sounds reasonable.

      d) the patent office grants some of your claims, and you want to get an issued patent AND continue to argue about the others (continuation).
      If the accepted claims and the rejected claims were closely related, this sounds reasonable. If the rejected claims were rejected because you were trying to patent the kitchen sink and all its contents, then I say go back to the end of the line and file a new application.
    6. Re:I'm curious... by proxy318 · · Score: 1

      What the hell does how you use something have to do with what it IS? Just because I use the vacuum cleaner I bought for cleaning carpets to clean my car as well doesn't make it a different device.

      --
      Saying your "phone ran out of batteries" is like saying your "car ran out of gas tanks".
    7. Re:I'm curious... by CajunArson · · Score: 1

      The short answer is that finding a new use for an invention has never meant that the invention itself could be patented for longer. However, a new patent for the method of using the item could be patentable.

      Example that I am dredging up from my (sometimes inaccurate) memory of the MPEP: A shoe polish compound that is well known in the prior art is discovered to have a new use in repelling insects that was not previously known. Since this is an inherent property of the shoe polish the discoverer cannot get a patent on the compound. However, say there is a specific method that you need to do in order to get the compound to actually repel bugs. This method of using the compound may be patentable if it meets the novelty/non-obviousness requirements needed for any patent.

          No... this is NOT official legal advice.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    8. Re:I'm curious... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      this sounds like it's directly to address what guys like lemmelson did. They would create an over broad, but unrealized application, then manipulate the patent later to include what they see other people doing that's only tangent to the original patent. That defeats the purpose of publishing the patent for other people to build from if those future inventions that might be "clean" can be "stolen" when they change the published patent after the fact.

    9. Re:I'm curious... by russotto · · Score: 1

      e) You come up with a new claim based on technology which is not novel at the time you come up with the claim, but want the benefit of the filing date of your original application.

    10. Re:I'm curious... by Dan+Berlin · · Score: 1

      The problem is there is no limit on the number of continuations or RCE's you can file. Only fees for doing so :) The new rules limited the number of each you could do. Drug companies in particular, are well known for wearing down the patent office by filing continuation after continuation until they get all the claims they want for a particular drug, issued into patents. Hence the reason they are so vehemently against these rules. (It's humorous to read the argument GlaxoSmithKlein made that the "public" is clearly against these rules, by pointing out that amicus briefs were only filed on their side of the argument.)

    11. Re:I'm curious... by Janthkin · · Score: 1

      I am not a lawyer, but my take on this is: I am, but (of course) none of this is legal advice; get your own damned lawyer in your own jurisdiction if you want legal advice.

      a) your inventor comes up with a new way of extending his invention (continuation in part); That sounds to me like it should be a completely new patent application. Can't be, and here's why. If you file an application, your own disclosures in that application can still be used as prior art against you in other applications. Say, for example, I invent the chair. A little later, I realize I can put wheels on my chair. If I didn't file as a continuation in part, my original disclosure of a chair could be used as a portion of a 35 U.S.C. 103 rejection, finding a chair-with-wheels to be obvious. (Also, my new application would not get any of the benefit of the filing date of the original chair application, meaning any chair-related prior art which appeared after my initial chair, but before my chair-with-wheels, could be used against me.)

      b) you disclosed multiple distinct inventions in the original application, but only filed claims at one of them (continuation); That too sounds like you should have to file a new application for the new inventions. Again, you can't. Anything you disclosed in your original application needs to be claimed in that application, or in a continuation of that application. If I filed my parent application and disclosed two inventions in the specification, but only claimed one of them, my own application will block me from later filing an unrelated application claiming that second invention.

      The continuation system was put in place to allow an inventor to make improvements and refinements on his invention, e.g., as continued testing or development further defined the parameters of the invention. An inventor, via continuation, can get a patent on a development of his idea that someone else would be barred from patenting as being obvious over the original invention (e.g., invent chair, CIP for chair with wheels, whereas a second party may be barred from chair-with-wheels as being obvious over chair). In most cases, such refinements ADD limitations to the initial invention, meaning CIPs ofter have narrower claims.

      RCEs, so far as I can tell, are there to let the PTO bill you every other office action. Often, the first two office actions are spent educating the examiner, who has completely missed the novel feature of your invention, and sent you a rejection based on inapplicable prior art. Examiners are scored based on accomplishing certain goals: the first office action in a case and FINAL office actions are among them. Non-final subsequent actions aren't, which gives them an incentive to issue final rejections whenever they can. Unfortunately, not all final rejections are of the highest-possible quality.
  7. Really? by Angst+Badger · · Score: 1

    The patent office says the new rules would speed up the patent process, but critics say they hurt inventors.

    Inventors? Or just multi-billion-dollar transnational conglomerates?

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Really? by The+Empiricist · · Score: 1

      The patent office says the new rules would speed up the patent process, but critics say they hurt inventors.

      Inventors? Or just multi-billion-dollar transnational conglomerates?

      Multi-billion-dollar transnational conglomerates tend to hire a lot of inventors. Some of them do use patents as a key part of their business model. It is likely that efforts that undercut such business models would mean that such companies would be less effective at capitalizing on the innovations produced by their inventors, which could mean that they would hire fewer inventors or hire them at reduced salaries. Some small companies also use patents, sometimes to collect money for sales lost to powerful players and sometimes just to deter competition and potentially become a big player too. Undermining these business models can also lead to reduced demand for inventors.

      Eliminating or minimizing the drawbacks that come with a patent system may create enough opportunities for inventors to maintain demand, but it can also shift money away from inventors towards craftsmen and marketers. After all, if you can't make more money by protecting something that's new, why not just make something that's old better and invest in branding it to artificially stimulate demand?

  8. Intellectual property is not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Property, I mean.

  9. Root cause... by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

    From TFA: "The new rules are intended to speed patent reviews by the chronically understaffed (emphasis added) USPTO"

    It's easier said than done, but couldn't they just hire more folks since patent issues are among the hottest in the country?

    1. Re:Root cause... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are. But the job is so dreadful that not many stick around.

    2. Re:Root cause... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are, 1000 a year for 5 years. Accept they have a 15% attrition rate per year on new examiners. The GAO did a good report recently on this and stated even with current hiring numbers they will fail to help patent pendancy.

    3. Re:Root cause... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      couldn't they just hire more folks?

      They're trying. It doesn't work all that well when people who learn how to do the job can make twice as much money as patent lawyers or corporate IP managers....

  10. Which Inventors? by pembo13 · · Score: 1

    What percentage of patent filers in the last few years were by inventors? 10%? Any intelligent guesses?

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Which Inventors? by hacksoncode · · Score: 1
      100%. That's the law. Only inventors can file patent applications.

      Oh, did you mean "What percentage of patents rights were *assigned* to individual inventors?" Probably a lot less. How many individual inventors received compensation for this patent right assignment beyond their salaries? Somewhat more.

      What, exactly, is your point?

  11. True, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > One of the tenets of the capitalist system is clear ownership of property. How can one invest if the ownership can be taken away.

    One might think that a clear definition of "property" (say, one including the words "rivalrous goods" in it somewhere) would also be a part of the capitalist system, such that people might recognize when things, particularly government-granted monopoly rights, but not "property" in any meaningful sense, get deliberately misnamed with intent to cloud certain issues.

    1. Re:True, but... by notamisfit · · Score: 1

      The government grants me a monopoly right to my house. If someone else tries to live in it, I can call the police and have them thrown out. I can even shoot them with government permission if they refuse to leave. Does that mean it's not property?

      --
      Jesus is coming -- look busy!
    2. Re:True, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it is property, because while that other guy's living there, you can't. And even without any government, you could deny future access to it through force.

      These are two of the many ways that property is entirely unlike information, and why "intellectual property" is, being information, entirely unlike ACTUAL property.

    3. Re:True, but... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      but if your house is exactly like somebody else's you've never seen the govt can't TAKE it away from you... IF you used somebody's patent in your new house YOU bought and paid for, then that's EXACTLY what happens... with software that happens a LOT.

  12. What really needs to happen is to remove..... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ...the fraudulent support for software patents, as software is in no way material of patentable character.

    Once that is done, the patent office will have more time to spend on patent applications that do have patentable material.

    Software is of abstract ideas, natural law and physical phenomenon, and of this a sub set is mathematical algorithms of which all four of these areas are universally considered NON-PATENTABLE!

    see Abstraction Physics for the fundamentals.

    1. Re:What really needs to happen is to remove..... by nwssa · · Score: 0, Troll

      Once that is done, the patent office will have more time to spend on patent applications that do have patentable material.

      Great thinking, then the small guy can stop focusing on innovating and just go work for large software companies and look for innovations coming from either 1) the idiots left who continue to innovate without patent protection or 2) look to foreigners who innovate in their country. Then copy-paste those innovations into the large companies next product release. Hey why even spend the effort looking for and copying-pasting the innovations - we could just outsource that too and sit at home all day collecting our paycheques

    2. Re:What really needs to happen is to remove..... by sssssss27 · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. People would have a copyright on their software. So while you could implement it in your own fashion, you couldn't copy it directly.

      The biggest problem with the patent system is they are allowing ideas to be patented instead of only solutions.

    3. Re:What really needs to happen is to remove..... by nwssa · · Score: 0

      Not sure how many investors would fork over their $cash for somebody that says they plan to protect their software using copyrights.
      Another problem with copyrights is the lack of teaching what the invention is.

    4. Re:What really needs to happen is to remove..... by The+Empiricist · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. People would have a copyright on their software. So while you could implement it in your own fashion, you couldn't copy it directly.

      The biggest problem (at least in the U.S.) that existed when it seemed that only copyright protection was available for software, but patent protection was not, was that people would make outright clones of innovative works (using the same ideas, but not the same code), the innovators would then sue the cloners, and then courts would push the doctrines of what copyright could protect.

      Copyright protection is much easier to get than patent protection. All you have to do is write down something original and you have a copyright while patent protection requires an adversarial problem. The validity of copyright protection is harder to attack than the validity of a patent (it just takes one publication, anywhere in the world, any language, with all the limitations of the claimed invention, 12 months before the U.S. filing date or before the invention was conceived to invalidate a patent). And the scope of patent protection is defined by a patent's claims. What is the scope of copyright protection for a software application? Patents, which expire 20 years from the date of filing, are relatively short in duration. Copyright protection duration seems to be on a path to eternity.

      There are problems with software patents. Patent protection for software "is too much, too long, and too late." But, eliminating software patents altogether won't solve these problems. People who invest in innovations will always try to find the most cost-effective ways to maintain a competitive advantage. For technologies that are easy to clone (which, today, seems to be just about every technology), there will always be pressure on the boundaries of whatever intellectual property rights are available. Eliminate the most appropriate protections and the pressure will cause warping of the protections left behind.

  13. You clearly don't know what rivalrous means. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    > The government grants me a monopoly right to my house. If someone else tries to live in it, I can call the police and have them thrown out. I can even shoot them with government permission if they refuse to leave. Does that mean it's not property?

    I think you totally misunderstood what a "rivalrous" good is. Rivalrous is what your house is. Think of a shirt: two people can't wear it at the same time and three is right out. That's why it's rivalrous: multiple users interfere with each other.

    The monopoly rights are an attempt to make something non-rivalrous into something rivalrous: we can't both have exclusive monopoly rights to an invention. But it's natural state is non-rivalrous: we both CAN make the same invention, and let the better of the two win in the marketplace. These patents prevent one of the two from getting to the market to begin with merely because someone patented it first.

    Lastly, calling your house a "monopoly" right is just plain silly. It doesn't keep people from owning other land, nor other people from owning other houses, therefore it cannot rightfully be called a "monopoly."

    The sheer amount of confusion you have about what these words mean disturbs me because it means that you're both ignorant and strongly opinionated. I've yet to see a case where that was a good combination. Alas, it does make your username true. You are certainly not a misfit...

  14. I don't know why the court would get involved .... by Usagi_yo · · Score: 1
    Why oh Why are the courts involved at all?

    As the Constitution clearly enumerates Patents and Copyrights are the exclusive domain of Congress. Ostensibly they can grant patents, take them away, and establish an agency with congressional oversight to regulate the patent process.

    If this isn't a judge specificaly appointed by Congress to Adjudicate the Patent process, I have a hard time believing this injunction is going to last.

  15. Re:I don't know why the court would get involved . by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why oh Why are the courts involved at all?

    Checks and balances again. The courts are involved because Congress, once again, dropped the goddamn ball.

    You know, when dogs get rabies, becoming irrational and dangerous to humans, they are taken out and shot. Congress may or may not have rabies (although some its members often act like they do) but they have certainly become irrational and dangerous. What are we going to do about them? Shoot votes at them?

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  16. Re:I don't know why the court would get involved . by kansas1051 · · Score: 1

    The Patent Office (executive branch) created rules that were contrary to the laws passed by Congress (legislative branch). The laws passed by Congress (the Administrative Procedure Act) state that the remedy in such a situation is to file suit against the agency (Patent Office) in federal court (judicial branch). The problem here is that the Patent Office overstepped the authority granted to it by Congress. Congress could change the law if it wanted to (and it might, see the Patent Reform Act of 2007), but the Patent Office can't change the law on its own.

    This injunction will certainly last, the Patent Office clearly violated the law in promulgating these new rules.

  17. Fixed. by RingDev · · Score: 1

    The patent office says the new rules would speed up the patent process, but critics say they hurt investors. -Rick
    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  18. Key Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >the key point is to make sure everything is written as clearly and unambiguously as possible..

    No, the key point is to spend a year reading a well rounded universe of recent CAFC patent cases in order to be knowledgeable about issues such as enablement, claim construction (specification and prosecution history effects upon claims), claim construction in general (claim construction 101), best mode, inequitable conduct, obviousness (especially in light of KSR), the list goes on....

    I am not saying that it is not possible to obtain this body of knowledge. but, your best bet might be to do the initial work and then get a good patent prosecution attorney to fix things for a somewhat less but still significant amount of $$.

    Or, if you are planning to file applications on many new innovations, it might make sense to immerse yourself in patent law and then, if your are intelligent, you can get it 98 % there and then pay minimally to get another set of eyes to reinforce the quality of your efforts.

    Its complicated because any attempt to achieve justice as related to the intersection of innovation and law is inherently complicated. Our society would definitely be improved if the individual innovators were empowered with the knowledge to navigate this intersection because we would then be closer to the ideal regarding patent protection that the constitutional framers intended.

    BTW, I am not a lawyer but I have been there and back on this subject.

  19. Re:Please... But that's not an inventor by MickLinux · · Score: 1

    {snippety quip = "An inventor is someone who "invents" an idea (as in writing fiction), and then "invents" that they are the inventor, and then "invents" lawsuits against anything that comes on the market and is fairly similar.

    Hard work is out."} Obligatory snipety quip {/snippety quip}

    {joke= "Aside from that, I can personally atte... OW! OW! OW! Those laws HURT!"} Obligatory joke {/Joke}

    {sig = "

    --
    Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
  20. No wonder by He+Who+Waits · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Isn't GlaxoSmithKline the company that patented Prilosec? And then when the FDA would no longer let them charge inflated prices for Prilosec "to cover their development costs", didn't GlaxoSmithKline then repackage Prilosec in purple capsules and re-patent it as Nexium, for which they could in turn charge inflated prices? Gee, why would GSK be concerned about greater patent scrutiny?