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Study Warns of Internet Brownouts By 2010

Bergkamp10 writes "Consumer and corporate use of the Internet could overload the current capacity and lead to brown-outs in two years unless backbone providers invest billions of dollars in new infrastructure, according to a new study. A flood of new video and other Web content could overwhelm the Net by 2010 unless backbone providers invest up to US $137 billion in new capacity, more than double what service providers plan to invest, according to the study by Nemertes Research Group. In North America alone, backbone investments of $42 billion to $55 billion will be needed in the next three to five years to keep up with demand, Nemertes said. Quoting from the study: 'Our findings indicate that although core fiber and switching/routing resources will scale nicely to support virtually any conceivable user demand, Internet access infrastructure, specifically in North America, will likely cease to be adequate for supporting demand within the next three to five years.' Internet users will create 161 exabytes of new data this year."

60 of 318 comments (clear)

  1. yay free market by hlomas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    it will take care of itself eventually, demand for bandwidth will increase and money will be poured into infrastructure

    1. Re:yay free market by Urusai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've already warned about this. Nobody will invest in new infrastructure in the US because the investors know the US is facing an epic economic decline, or even collapse, in the near future. We've reached peak bandwidth in the US.

    2. Re:yay free market by NickCatal · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The money doesn't even need to be poured into infrastructure anymore. Back in the late 90s they laid so much fiber/conduits that we will be perfectly fine for quite a long time.

      Add on to that the lowering cost of long-range high-speed ethernet and I'm confident that there won't be a problem nearly as fast as people want to make it seem.

      What is really needed here, however, is a wider adoption of multicast and local cache technology. That is going to be very costly to do.

      --
      -nick
    3. Re:yay free market by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Actually the capacity for the bandwidth is there, if they light the fibre up.

      The article is just FUD.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    4. Re:yay free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      demand for bandwidth will increase and money will be poured into infrastructure

      Why? Why spend $137 billion to upgrade infrastructure just to keep up, when they could just spend $0, and use the weak infrastructure to justify collecting extra money from google, amazon, itunes, etc.

    5. Re:yay free market by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 5, Funny

      We can always invade someone and take their bandwidth.

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    6. Re:yay free market by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "We've reached peak bandwidth in the US."

      let me guess your applying the same kind of phony logic as "peak oil" advocates use.

      repeat after me everyone - there is no bandwidth crisis. The only thing lacking is the speed of the last mile, there's tons of fibre out there waitng to be lit up.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    7. Re:yay free market by mikael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The fibre is there, but what do you connect it to, if the incumbents are just standing there and keeping the door to the cable rooms locked, and not installing any new equipment?

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    8. Re:yay free market by Propaganda13 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've already warned about this. Nobody will invest in new infrastructure in the US because the investors know the US is facing an epic economic decline, or even collapse, in the near future. We've reached peak bandwidth in the US.

      I've been warning people for years too. That's why I've been stockpiling porn for years. One of these days, we just won't have enough bandwidth then these fools will come crying that they can't get enough porn to get by on. Well, I warned them.
      STOCKPILE PORN NOW!
    9. Re:yay free market by smilindog2000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I hate agreeing with a guy who can't understand the simple fact that oil production will peak someday (was I missing obvious sarcasm? If so... sorry), but...

      The doom and gloom Internet bandwidth projections I've read assume that many of us start sharing videos and watch on-demand HD, not cached locally with our service providers, but downloaded at random. That's a bunch of crock. Our ISPs will be quite happy to cache this data locally, easing the burden on the backbone. All we need is a few simple strategies to help enable it. I'm doing my part. We geeks will overcome.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    10. Re:yay free market by ppanon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Um, no. He's talking about the massive trade and government deficits the US has been running for the last 7 years. At some point the people who have been funding those (mainly the Chinese) may get tired of doing so. At which point, if they stop buying dollars to support the trade deficit and bonds to support the federal deficit, but instead start selling them, the dollar will be massively devalued, leading to a huge increase in the price of all imported consumer goods. Compared to 30 years ago, there's very little manufacturing that actually still creates goods in the US. Most of it has been outsourced to countries with cheap labour and poor environmental stewardship.

      That will be good for your trade balance, of course, but bad for your economy since the high increase in the cost of goods will probably lead to a severe recession - people will be buying a lot less when everything suddenly costs many times more. It may take a decade or more for the US to recover. On the other hand, house prices won't seem that ridiculous anymore after 150% or more inflation, but anybody living on a fixed income, like retirees, are going to be seriously screwed.

      And in case you think that isn't ever going to happen, apparently the Chinese have been making noise about shifting their ownership of foreign funds to away from currencies that have been showing recent weakness.

      Of course, when the US can no longer afford to buy foreign goods, especially basic items like steel, and all their manufacturing capacity has been dismantled, why that might just be a good time for the Peep's Republic to invade Taiwan.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    11. Re:yay free market by h3llfish · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, just like the free market has done such a great job of caring for the environment! And getting safe toys to our children! And improving the standard of living of the average citizen! And... the list goes on.

      You can't have a free market without free people. All of the competitors in the market must play by the same rules - that's Economics 1, day 1.

      With US and EU workers trying to compete with slave labor, we are doomed to fail. The massive trade deficit, among other factors, has begun to erode our way of life.

      We aren't going to have the money to pay for massive internet infrastructure improvements, thanks to all these "free" markets.

      I'm no commie - I just think that we should only trade with trade partners who play by the same rules that we do. Don't trash the environment and destroy species. Allow dissent and trade unions. Don't allow child labor or 80 hour work weeks. If you can't play by those rules, you shouldn't be invited to the game.

    12. Re:yay free market by pete6677 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Remember when oil production "peaked" in the 1970's? How many times will we have "peak oil"?

    13. Re:yay free market by penix1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And just what incentive do the providers have to install said hardware? In fact, there is every incentive NOT to invest shit into it and let "teh tubes clog!!!!111!!!" They will scream to Congress as they try to fight the tide of Net Neutrality. That's what I predict they will do. Lord forbid they actually have to invest in anything except marketing overselling what the technology can support.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    14. Re:yay free market by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At which point, if they stop buying dollars to support the trade deficit


      See, this is what people don't get: China doesn't want a worthless US dollar. All of the dollars that they received (as part of funding our national debt and trade defect) aren't good just sitting around. At some point, China is going to want to spend them, and if we see massive inflation (because our currency becomes worthless), suddenly China is left with a lot of worthless dollars (as are we). It's not good for either side.

      Compared to 30 years ago, there's very little manufacturing that actually still creates goods in the US.


      This is actually a myth. Manufacturing in the US has grown since 30 years ago. However, demand for consumer goods has grown faster, which is why we are importing so much from

      Of course, when the US can no longer afford to buy foreign goods, especially basic items like steel, and all their manufacturing capacity has been dismantled, why that might just be a good time for the Peep's Republic to invade Taiwan.


      That would be a particularly poor idea, considering that the US has dramatic naval and air superiority compared with China. Whether or not that will be true in 30 years is very much up in the air, but the PRC has a lot of catching up to do - particularly on the naval side.
    15. Re:yay free market by nasch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All it takes is once. I'm not saying I know when it's going to happen, but surely everyone here can see that eventually it will no longer be economically worthwhile to extract any more oil. We won't actually run out, but there will be so little left that it's too hard to get out. The only other possibility is that new oil is being created as fast as we're using it, and I've never heard anyone suggest that. So eventually, yes, oil production will stop.

    16. Re:yay free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, I shudder to think what Iraq must be costing the US. If you have to have a war, do it well, or lose it relatively quickly, develop an anti-war stance, and become an economic superpower like Germany & Japan.
      The cost of the war is in the order of $470,085,420,533... I'm sure you could provide a 100MB connection to every home in the USA for that... (about $4,500 per household)

      What gets me, is people don't seem to have a problem with their tax dollars paying for a war that is killing thousands of people overseas, yet you mention trying to pay for universal health care for the entire nation and you've got a messy argument on your hands. Start to talk about spending it on Internet Infrastructure and you've got allot of people complaining in comments on Blogs!!! (that is as bad as it gets these days as nobody riots anymore. Homeland security you see.)

      Instead of spending money on killing people, spend it on healing your citizens at home. NYTimes did a nice piece. Basically it's enough to double the research for cancer funding, provide care for ALL Americans suffering from heart disease and diabetes, rebuild New Orleans, Improve National Security, more schools and more teachers. This esitmate puts the cost of universal health care at $69b which is only 15% of the cost of the war.

      And don't get all *thats communism* on me... In a true democracy people with power use it for the benefit of the most people.... not the elite few.
    17. Re:yay free market by russ1337 · · Score: 2, Funny

      China doesn t want a worthless US dollar. All of the dollars that they received as part of funding our national debt and trade defect aren t good just sitting around. At some point, China is going to want to spend them
      Reminds me of the girl down the road who owed my mate 50 bucks. The money was no good... so some other favors came into play.....

      What else do you have to trade America? You sure got a purdy mouth!
    18. Re:yay free market by hdparm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are welcome to try ADSL in New Zealand. Should give you a good idea.

    19. Re:yay free market by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Remember when oil production "peaked" in the 1970's? How many times will we have "peak oil"?
      No, I don't actually. There was an energy crisis starting in the Nixon Administration (I always wondered why Carter is blamed for that), but there was no oil "peak". The energy crisis was based on the Arabian Oil Embargo, which artificially created conditions similar to what is projected for peak oil production. When peak oil production is discussed today, they are talking about all the oil that is produced everywhere.
    20. Re:yay free market by tie_guy_matt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Carter is blamed for it because he actually tried to do something about it instead of just ignoring it. Suggest I wear a sweater and switch to renewable energy? What are you crazy? Why in 20 years I am sure we will think of something else. If we ignore it then the problem goes away for a while and we can pretend it is someone else's problem (it will be someone else's problem -- our kids!)

    21. Re:yay free market by nasch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Certainly. I didn't say it would be a crisis, although if oil production becomes impractical too suddenly there will be significant disruptions. If it's gradual enough, other technologies will smoothly take over. At least somewhat smoothly. The open question in my mind is whether those technologies will replace oil at a higher cost, lower cost, or comparable. We'll definitely keep using more energy, but there's no natural law that says it has to be as cheap as it is now.

    22. Re:yay free market by Quino · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "M. King Hubbert first used the theory in 1956 to accurately predict that United States oil production would peak between 1965 and 1970."

      Are you confusing the correct prediction of peak domestic oil production vs. peak world oil production? (Of course, the latter comes later).

      In either case, we won't have long to see how well the prediction scales world-wide.

      You can read more here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

      I am not aware of other (presumably false) predictions of when peak oil will occur other than the Hubert Peak Theory, which seems pretty well grounded.

      The real debate seems to be whether we're at the peak now, or will be in another 10-20 years, and whether the effects will be catastrophic or underwhelming.

      Of course, peak oil has zero to do with the topic at hand ...

    23. Re:yay free market by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Funny

      that's not what will happen. People can only download so much data. I mean really, there's only so much that I can possibly download before I run out of things I want to download. Plus there's the whole hard drive capacity thing. Yes I know internet cache is wiped out repeatedly but besides youtube and stuff, that's all insignificant compared to 2 GB video files. Speaking of that, the high res youtube is gonna crash the entire internet for a while lol.

      --
      Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    24. Re:yay free market by ppanon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The hard part was bootstrapping their economy and infrastructure. They have 1 billion potential customers compared to the USA's 350 million, but those 1 billion didn't have jobs or disposable income. As modern factories and infrastructure are getting built in China, and their own people are increasingly rich consumers, the importance of the US market decreases.

      Sure losing competitiveness in the US market would hurt, but if they still sell relatively well in Australia, Asia, the EU, as well as to the domestic market, they won't hurt anywhere near as much as the US will. Those Taiwanese multi-billion dollar cutting-edge fabs are a mighty tempting prize. Control over that would give them control over a huge portion of semiconductor production critical to Western nations (and the US military). The only thing that comes close in capacity is South Korea and Japan, and one of those has a northern neighbour that could become much more belligerent with very little prodding.

      Control of Taiwan will give China an immediate seat with the "big boys" in the technology game and when they think the time is right, they'll take it.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    25. Re:yay free market by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Which is, what many seem to be getting close to without hitting the nail on the head, is that no one in the US thinks beyond the short term anymore. Businesses use to be build up their infrastructure when their profits were good. Now all we have is the mega corps who can't see beyond the quarter. This is why I believe the US will eventually end up a second world nation. Everyone else will invest in their highways,electrical,internet,and other infrastructures while the US, which has become a nation of corps which only care about the quarter and "how much profit can we maximize if we didn't spend a dime and layoff everyone but the barest staff?" will just keep falling behind until we are like the USSR in the late 70's, with a huge military that rumbles across roads that have grass growing through the giant breaks in it.


      It is truly sad to see my country fall apart like this. And I don't honestly see any far sighted thinkers left in my country, either in the private or government sectors. Instead we will get rationing until what is left of the Internet infrastructure until it finally breaks down and by then the cost to rebuild will most likely be beyond our means.


      And finally if anyone has doubts to that happening, fell free to come to AR and see our horrible road system and then realize the guy responsible for cutting off funding for every improvement while we maintained record surpluses is now running for president (Mike Huckabee). Just the thought that Huckabee might even have a chance scares me even worse than President Hillary, and I never thought anyone would scare me that bad!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    26. Re:yay free market by pokerdad · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Remember when oil production "peaked" in the 1970's? How many times will we have "peak oil"?

      If you mean how many more time will people predict it - many many more. If you mean how many peaks will there actually be - just one.

      A mathematician whose name escapes me at this point demonstrated decades ago that humans will use up a finite resource on a curve not unlike a bell curve. Of course, countless people want to be able to say they correctly predicted when the peak happenned, though reality is that we probably won't be sure the peak was in fact the peak till five or ten years after it happens. (and also in addition to those who want the ego boost of being right, you have those who regularily predict that peak oil has been reached in order to spread fear and push their agendas)

      An issue of Scientific American from the early 90s applied the curve mentioned above to convential oil production and (if I recall correctly) predicted a peak around 2012. But it is worth noting that since then oil sands have gone from being an interesting bit of R&D to being an industry worth tens of billions of dollars; so even if SA was correct, consumers may not feel the pinch on that date because from a consumer's standpoint it doesn't really matter what process was needed to get the oil to you. (it mattered in the early 90s when it cost more to produce a barrel of oil from bitumen than the price of oil, but now that problem is long gone)

    27. Re:yay free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The free market will doom us. If our oil supply declines to 1970, or even 1980s levels in the course of a year, it will be too late to build the infrastructure other energy sources require without severely damaging the economy. Not only that, but building the infrastructure will be costlier then, since construction requires a lot of energy.

    28. Re:yay free market by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes and no, there is the last mile problem, but there is also the problem of 3/4 of the existing bandwidth being used by spammers and crackers.

      I don't personally support adding capacity to the net, until the other problems that are limiting the usability are dealt with.

    29. Re:yay free market by Plaid+Phantom · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, call me idealistic, but then we light up the fiber ourselves; start some sort of co-op, I dunno. Span the US with fiber and Wi-Max. Google has to be planning something with all the fiber they own.

      If something like that were to happen, and a 'second internet' spring up independent of the current infrastructure and grow reasonably, then one incumbent will start playing along. After that, they'd start falling like dominoes.

      Of course, I'm being ridiculously optimistic about the chances for success of such a project, not to mention the willingness of a group of people to let go of their own money to do it. There's a high initial cost and it would take a long-term commitment to see real results.

      --
      All comments are properties and trademarks of the voices in my head. Not like I'm gonna claim them.
    30. Re:yay free market by bitrex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reason some of the technologies you mention are not being used extensively is not only a question of cost, it's also a question of running up against technological difficulties and the laws of physics. Solar panel efficiency is still stuck at around 15% on average. Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy carrier - one needs to use some other energy source to produce it. Battery technology restricts the use of electric powered vehicles. Even if all of the U.S. corn crop were converted to ethanol, it could only power 20% of vehicles on the road, and thats assuming farms still use the hundreds of thousands of tons of petroleum based fertilizers currently applied to make crop yields what they are. Crunching the numbers on all these things is difficult, but from the research I have seen it is easily apparent that even if we used all available alternative energy sources that we know of to maximum efficiency using current technology, the world would still fall short of fulfilling its CURRENT energy demands by a wide margin.

      Perhaps there will be continued innovation in more efficient alternative energy technologies; perhaps others will be discovered. It's also possible that neither will happen, or neither is possible. By believing that the free market will automatically rectify the inevitable decline in world oil production with alternative fuels one is essentially betting that both possibilities will come about in time to avert an energy crisis, while the status quo is maintained for the foreseeable future. This seems to me like a dangerous gamble.
    31. Re:yay free market by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The doom and gloom Internet bandwidth projections I've read assume that many of us start sharing videos and watch on-demand HD, not cached locally with our service providers, but downloaded at random. That's a bunch of crock. Our ISPs will be quite happy to cache this data locally, easing the burden on the backbone.

      You mean, like newsgroups?

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but come on, man! This is NOT A DIFFICULT PROBLEM. It was thoroughly solved well over a decade ago. The only reason we aren't using it more is because of legal considerations. Newsgroups solved the problem of distributing large amounts of content over slow connections and caching the data on an as-needed basis. Your "NetFS" struggles (and fails) to be anywhere near as efficient.

      But if your ISP took the top 50 movies and cached them in a cheap-ass 1U newsgroup server at your neighborhood head-end equipment, the top 500 movies in 4U at your city colo, and the top 50,000 in a nice rack at their datacenter, with one superglobalworldwide archive with everything ever made, they'd have a system that would be incredibly efficient. Build each tier to failover to the one above, and you'd have incredible reliability. Even if the superglobalworldwide data center went down for an afternoon, only maybe 5% of everybody would even notice. And the superglobalworldwide datacenter might only cost a few million. Peanuts!

      See, half of everybody wants the top 10 movies. Half of what's left wants something released within the last year or so. The next 20% or so gets pretty tough to cache, and the last 5% is just impossible - some artsy film from 1948 filmed in southern France.

      With very little expense, your ISP could serve basically every movie ever made.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    32. Re:yay free market by Brickwall · · Score: 2, Interesting
      On the other hand, house prices won't seem that ridiculous anymore after 150% or more inflation, but anybody living on a fixed income, like retirees, are going to be seriously screwed.

      Spot on. I'm a geezer myself (51), and I remember in the 1970's working for a company that did tax returns for farmers (and former farmers) in Canada. I must have done returns for over 100 widows whose husbands had sold their farms, moved into town, and died shortly thereafter. These women were left to live on the capital generated by their farm's sale, which was usually invested in government bonds. Now, in 1970, in London, Ontario, you might have been able to eke out a living on $4,000 a year along with your Canada Pension, but by 1979, after a decade of government-induced inflation, these women were, to all intents and purposes, destitute.

      What made it truly heartbreaking was the fact that they treated me, a commercial salesman, as an honoured guest. They would make dinner - steak for me, chicken for them. They would show me pictures of their children and grandchildren, and tell me stories about their families. They possessed a quiet dignity that would not acknowledge their diminished station, and I had no heart to break their illusions. At the end of dinner, I would thank them, sincerely, for their hospitality, and tell them that they were truly "ladies", in all the best senses of that word. I had no higher compliment to bestow. Some were Stoic; some allowed a flicker of happiness; some smiled outright. Inwardly, I wept for all of them.

      Inflation quietly destroys lives. I'm only a Canadian, so I have no influence, but the only person running for US president who seems to understand this is Ron Paul. To my American friends: please support him, so that your parents and grandparents will not suffer these indignities.

      --
      What was once true, is no longer so
    33. Re:yay free market by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "... allowtrade unions. Don't allow child labor or 80 hour work weeks. If you can't play by those rules, you shouldn't be invited to the game."

      Ahh yes but freedom means freedom to break the rules, and to do just anything... and that also means be crook. There is almost no distinction between a theif and a business man these days. Business practices can't be enforced because it would take probably upwards or close to half of the population monitoring the other half, or an orwellian society. We allow people to make their own choices, but... not all people are created equal, therefore not all minds, thoughts, and ideas, and their subsequent choices will be created equal either... and thus is the state of the world.

      The fact is the culture of greed is nourished by the concept of money, it is in fact us who is doing it to ourselves, if resources are finite and limited, and they efficiencies only increase in bursts or jumps (i.e. taking a finite resource, and then being able to use less of it doing the same thing), then it follows that: We have done it to ourselves.. i.e. every time you invest in a company that is destroying the environment, you are in fact just as much responsible as the company for that effect. Companies don't exist without money, don't give them money and eventually they will go out of business.

      The problem is of couse we no longer produce our own necessities, therefore we are indentured servants to one another. That may sound "luddite'ish" but it is the truth. If you don't own your own productive property and are dependent on someone else for basic necessities, then you are in a struggle for power with the person that provides you those necessities.

    34. Re:yay free market by Retric · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wind is cost effective right now. Hydro is cost effective right now. The best solar to electricity systems are about 45% efficiency but still pricey for now. However coal is cheep and we have a large enough supply that it should last 100 years with zero problems. We can run nuke plants for 10,000+ years. So energy is not a problem.

      The real issue is we like our hydro carbons in easy to transport containers and oil is going up in price, but there is still a lot of oil out there in tar sands etc. Now we could manufacture oil, all it takes is energy CO2 and H20 but that seems like a bad idea. So we talk about hydrogen, or ethanol etc but right now oil is still cheep so it's up in the air.

      In many ways we are drunk on oil and it's going to our heads, so some things will probably change. I walked to work today, other people telecommute, some took trains etc, but the millions who drive 30+ miles might need to find another life style. Some change could be good from an energy stand point I could walk 2 blocks to the mall, but it's easer to just go to amazon.com. That's right from an energy standpoint home delivery is cheep.

      Think of it like this trains can transport one ton of stuff 400 miles on a gallon of fuel, but we still send truckers all over the country because it's fast and cheep. But at some point other methods could be the new fast and cheep.

      PS: Corn to ethanol is a bad idea just like corn to fructose is a bad idea.

    35. Re:yay free market by encoderer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry, but your post shows a complete ignorance of how macro economics and monetary theory actually work.

      1. The Chinese (or anyone for that matter) does not "buy dollars" to "support the trade deficit." !!!!! They produce GOODS which we BUY from them in DOLLARS. You probably heard how they have a few hundred billion dollars or whatever in their Central Bank and you just ran with it. Perhaps some of their USD reserves were investments/speculations but the VAST MAJORITY were sent to China in exchange for the shoes and DVD players and shit that we Americans just LOOOOOVE.

      2. The Chinese (or anyone for that matter) aren't buying T-Bills out of the kindness of their hearts in order to support our deficits. They're buying T-Bills because they MAKE DECENT INTEREST and they're the most rock-solid investment vehicle ON THE PLANET. The chance of default is SO LOW that it's non-existent. This would be like saying that eventually Investors will get tired of funding Google's R&D and stop buying their stock. They won't. Because they don't give a fuck about googles R&D. They own the stock because it's a good investment vehicle.

      3. As somebody else said, China (or anyone else for that matter) has NO INTEREST in seeing the US Dollar decline in value.

      ---First, China pegs the Yuan to fluctuate with the dollar!! So if the dollar falls, their currency falls as well. This artificial-pegging is one of the big economic beefs that the US has with China. It eliminates the normal controls of the free market. If they didn't do this, in theory, the Yuan would have gained on the dollar over the past 7 years, making Chinese goods more expensive, making US manufacturers more competitive. But that hasn't happened because of the way the Chinese Gov't manipulates their currency.

      ---Second, China's number one trading partner is the US! They are a wealthy country right now primarily because of the US! Why oh why would the slaughter the goose that's laying their golden egg?

      ---Third, If china began selling off their stockpile of dollars quickly, it would they would lose out! If they have $1TN in USD's (they don't have that much, just an example), and they sold off the first $500bn, the second $500bn would be worth much less. Why would they do that?

      ---Fourth, Even if china sold off every one of their USD's, the USD would rebound. Simple supply and demand! It will flood the market, push down the value, and then it would reach a point low enough that it becomes a huge buying opportunity, so other Central Banks would move-in and speculate on the dollar and make a shitload. As they buy dollars on the free market, the dollar would rebound, end of story.

      4. The only premise under which China could consider this would be a US-Sino war. WHY? WHY? WHY? Why would either side of that fight ever decide it was worthy? Bill Clinton was wrong about free trade in many ways, but he was right about a few things. Among them: Free trade stops wars. Our relationship with China is symbiotic. They need us. We need them. For all the talk of China rising-up they have a LONG LONG way to go before they reach parity with the US. Sure, their (costal) cities look modern, but the vast majority of the country is not yet modernized. No highways and bridges and dams and homes and sewer and water and gas. No subways and bus stations and airports and seaports and spaceports. Outside of the major cities, it's a very backwards country and it's going to take TRILLIONS of dollars to modernize it. They NEED us. We NEED them.

      5. AND HERE'S THE BIG ONE: Adam Smith solved this problem almost THREE HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO when he wrote the book that's become the bedrock for modern economic theory. In "The Wealth of Nations" he proposed for the first time the idea that trade is universally good. His theory is simple: What can China ever do with that money except buy things from us? (Or from other people, who eventually buy things from us)?? Money is just a way to keep score. It has no intrinsic value. It's value is limited to the fact that it can be exchanged for something you need.

    36. Re:yay free market by Retric · · Score: 2, Informative

      High energy radio active waste is an energy source. The vast majority of this so called waste is fuel. We extract around 2% of the available energy because that's the cheep part but the idea of high energy waste is silly if it's really hot then we can extract energy from it. If it's going to be around for million's of years then it's safe.

      Read up on breeder reactors and take a real look at this issue.

      The other issue is the extreme levels nuke plants are regulated. For an idea just how silly this is: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DA1F3AF935A15751C1A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

      http://www.uic.com.au/ral.htm

      PS: I seem to recall an issue where the concrete was producing more radiation than the "acceptable dose" before the plant went into operation. I can't find the details but background radiation is often well above the "acceptable" level inside a power plant and nobody bothers to tell people living in the area.

  2. TCP/IP protocols? by or-switch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A while back I read about different options for internet communications protocols that were much more efficient than the current protocols. I think the early research showed you could get a HUGE scale-up in data transmission rates using conventional hardware if the protocol was altered. That was several years ago and the same protocols are still being used. Getting a large number of vendors/users/software/etc. to change off of an inefficient protocol for a better one is very difficult, but maybe it's less expensive than upgrading the worldwide internet? I wonder how much bandwidth we'd get back if spam was stopped somehow. Hmm.

    1. Re:TCP/IP protocols? by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Eliminating spam somehow probably wouldn't solve much. How many spam e-mails do you get per day? Let's be generous and say that on average you get 1000 spam e-mails per day. How many minutes of video on average (per day) are watched by internet users? I don't have any exact numbers, but I know some people who watch hours of video per day, but the majority of people do not watch any. Let's settle on 3 minutes. Factor in websites, video gaming, VOIP, business VPN, FTP, everything else... 1000 e-mails equates to maybe 3MB of data per day (most of my spam comes in plain text... then again I haven't looked at them in quite some time). So you're looking at 10-15% max. Even if it were 50% it wouldn't change much (it would shift the timeline a few months). These internet backbone "problems" (I personally don't believe anything is going to happen... but let's pretend that they are right) are caused by a very very steep increase in internet usage per year. The amount of data transfered goes up exponentially every year. A few years ago I heard that it doubles every 9 months... I'm not sure if that's still the case... I wouldn't be too surprised if it's rising even faster than that due to the recent increase in video watching, but then again the internet is becoming somewhat mature, so eventually the growth should slow down (not any time soon... but perhaps after we're all streaming HD videos 24/7 to 20 different locations in our homes there will be a peak somewhere...).

  3. Just throttle the biggest content--Oh, wait. by Sowelu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't know if I'm trolling or joking or what, but I'm in the unfortunate position of saying: If people start seeing brownouts because there's too much video on the 'net, I'll happily switch to a service that throttles the heck out of your content as long as I can still use my low-bandwidth telnet stuff. Does that mean I'm supporting or opposing network neutrality? I don't even know anymore.

    1. Re:Just throttle the biggest content--Oh, wait. by WK2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Does that mean I'm supporting or opposing network neutrality?

      Neither. You support QOS. QOS is throttling based on protocol/bandwidth/latency needs. Neutrality is under attack when ISP's throttle or block based on content/source. Sometimes the line between QOS and Neutrality is blurry, but your example is clearly QOS.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    2. Re:Just throttle the biggest content--Oh, wait. by homer_ca · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Correct. An example of QOS would be prioritizing all VoIP packets. Non-net-neutrality would be prioritizing the packets of the ISP's own VoIP service and degrading a competitor's VoIP traffic (say to Vonage). This article sounds like more fear mongering to promote a tiered Internet, i.e. non-neutral Internet.

    3. Re:Just throttle the biggest content--Oh, wait. by shadow_slicer · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's why you don't make VoIP work "better" than bittorrent, you make it work "different" than bittorrent. With QoS your VoIP (Real-time streams) would get say, a fixed 9kb/s or whatever of "Guaranteed Low Latency" (TM). And your bittorrent (BULK Traffic) would get what ever is left over, but makes no guarantee of when your packets will arrive. The point is that if you make bittorrent act like VoIP, it will be limited to the real-time rate which should be slower than the BULK rate.

      Of course the gotcha there is the "should be". If the telco's are cheap and don't upgrade, then even QoS can't stop the brownouts. But then again if the telco's don't upgrade, there'll be brownouts anyway...

  4. Three things to consider by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1. For Net users in the Americas and Europe, it would be fairly easy to establish bridge portals to not include Africa and Asia and solve the whole problem.

    2. For Net users beyond the Americas and Europe, going to IPv6 would solve this problem - and installing throttle content managers to bridge the gap.

    3. Just because you can link all devices to the Net, doesn't mean you have to.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  5. This study brought to you by... by Starteck81 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... your local monopoly telco. I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon, AA&T and their ilk paid for this study so they could go cry to congress about needing more subsidies so the internet doesn't "brownout".

    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
  6. What about improving the way the internet works by urinetrouble · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://mr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12356.html

    From an article in discover magazine:

    John Doyle is worried about the Internet. In the next few years, millions more people will gain access to it, and existing users will place ever higher demands on our digital infrastructure, driven by applications like online movie services and Internet telephony. Doyle predicts that this skyrocketing traffic could cause the Internet to slow to a disastrous crawl, an endless digital gridlock stifling our economies. But Doyle, a professor of control and dynamic systems, electrical engineering, and bioengineering at Caltech, also believes the Internet can be saved. He and his colleagues have created a theory that has revealed some simple yet powerful ways to accelerate the flow of information. Vastly accelerate the flow: Doyle and his colleagues can now blast the entire text of all the books in the library of Congress across the United States in 15 minutes.

    I haven't actually read the whole article in a while but from what it seems, this guy has a pretty good solution to this whole problem that I don't see discussed a lot.

  7. Bandwidth "brownouts" are nothing new by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Informative

    The most glaring one I can remember was on the morning of September 11, 2001, but its not the only one that has occurred, and undoubtedly won't be the last. Also, the same thing happens with any other limited communications service (POTS systems can be -- and have been -- overloaded during major events!), and with (and where we get the name) electrical grids.

    So, yeah, by 2010, internet brownouts "might" happen. They already do happen. And we all survive.

    Aside from pushing a meaningles scary buzzword ("exaflood"), this is an unsurprising study by a largely telecom-industry-funded lobbying group favoring tiered internet services and other telecom-friendly policy that, surprise of surprises, finds that with the current, mostly-neutral internet, the whole system is about to collapse, and it will be used to sell the idea that we have to abandon that model, let telecoms charge additional fees to get data delivered even though they already charge each end for every byte transferred, etc.

    1. Re:Bandwidth "brownouts" are nothing new by greengrass · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the UK, there are five brownouts per week, Monday - Friday, from 18:00 onwards.

      --
      The MS "no sue/patent deal" with Novell/Xandros is like the Pope blessing a Jewish wedding
  8. More alarmist bullshit by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bet you 10 slashbucks if you do some research behind where this study came from, it is companies who claim to have the fix for this.

    I highly doubt the Internet is headed for a meltdown because, funny thing, as usage grows so does available bandwidth. Turns out that we can activate more fibre connections, we can upgrade to new, faster technologies, etc. I'm quite sure the Internet of 1997 would have ground to a near total halt were it subjected to today's traffic. However turns out we aren't dealing with that Internet, ours is faster, better.

    I also hate when people throw out bullshit numbers of how much something will cost to fix. Ok well that might be impressive assuming we weren't spending anything now. But we are. Companies are investing in new infrastructure all the time (I know we are where I work). If it is insufficient, ok, but let's not pretend that there is no development going on and all of a sudden we have to find a big wodge of cash.

    If it comes down to it, and there's more demand than supply and supply is too expensive to grow based on current pricing know what happens? No not a melt down, but that magic shit you learned back in Econ 200: Prices will rise such that demand will match supply. Of course those rising prices will give more money to upgrade supply and so on.

    In reality I imagine things will go just fine. As far as I can tell bandwidth is getting cheaper at the high end, and supply is mostly limited by demand. As there's more demand for it, the infrastructure necessary for it will be purchased.

  9. Actual link to the report. by argent · · Score: 4, Informative
  10. Why does spending level off ? by mbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I must admit, my BS detector went off when I heard of this study. In my experience. the Internet backbones tend to be in the best shape, even in the US, and the most straightforward to extend. Our troubles tend to be on the edge.

    While, I cannot find any real problems in a quick read, people should look at FIGURE 7: GLOBAL INCREMENTAL OPTICAL INVESTMENT, where the investment peaks in 2008 after exponential growth in both spending, capacity and use. It is not too surprising that a couple of years of exponential growth in usage later, and with flat spending, they predict problems. The real question to me is, how realistic is that that investment will peak next year ? I must admit that this sounds dubious to me.

  11. Sounds like anti-neutrality FUD to me by niola · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some of the points made in this report seem to eerily echo the talking points of the big comm companies against neutrality, and for allowing them to tier pricing.

    If you recall they said in the past that video is using up a substantial percentage of the bandwidth and that unless they can charge the big users more (ie Google, Youtube, etc) that they won't be able to upgrade the infrastructure to keep up.

  12. Been hearing this since 1996 by jjohnson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The collapse of the infrastructure is like the end of Moore's Law--always a couple years over the horizon.

    As a general practice, I ignore any news story that relies upon "could", "may", "might" or "possibly" in its central premise. It always means that another lazy journalist is being willingly spoonfed a story by a PR flack.

    --
    Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  13. Didn't we give the telcos money for this? by Unlikely_Hero · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well telcos, I guess you have to upgrade the network now like you promised for the tax cuts clinton gave you between 1996 and 2000! What was it? 200 billion?

    This is the telcos fault, screw them.

    --
    Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
  14. exchange rate by oliphaunt · · Score: 5, Funny

    US $137 billion. how much is that in hard currency, like 500 Euros?

    --




    Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
  15. There is actually a surplus of capacity by viking80 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am sure there is a lot of poor equipment that needs to be upgraded, but otherwise this sounds more like ISP crying that they need more revenue.

    Backbone fiber: the fiber cables contain 768 non-dispersion shifted cable. This, and the last mile, is the big and expensive part of the network. Each of these fibers can, with end equipment upgrade, carry at least 10Gb * 135 colors = 1.35Tb, so the cable carries 1Eb/s.
    Now, an x264 encoded HD video is 50mb/s, so this cable will carry 20 million HD channels.
    (So one cable covers northern california. There are at least three)

    A 40GB edge router can support about 1k users, and costs $10k. Thats $100/user. Estimate the same cost /Mb for the core. Factoring 5 year lifetime on equipment you end up with $4/user/month for 50Mb/s.

    My house is already connected with fiber(GB Ethernet choked down to a few Mb/s) , and you can probably (soon) get 50Mb/s over DSL, so the last mile cost is at least incremental, and probably similar to the above estimate of $4, so the urban part of us should get it for $8 + ISP profit and administrative cost.

    So $10/month for 50Mb/s should be the cost to support this upgrade.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  16. Bogus estimate of amount of Video creation? by termigan · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Did anyone else blink an eye at TFA's estimate of how much data CREATED this year? From TFA:

    Internet users will create 161 exabytes of new data this year, and this exaflood is a positive development for Internet users and businesses, IIA says. An exabyte is 1 quintillion bytes or about 1.1 billion gigabytes. One exabyte is the equivalent of about 50,000 years of DVD quality video.

    So, 70.5E9 Hours of video? So, 1 billion people each created 70.5 hours of video worth of data? That's pretty impressive, to the extent that I question the 161 Exabyte figure for internet users. If they include scientific data collection, I'd buy that number, but that doesn't effect our internet; have their own internet, internet 2. Anyone else have a way to explain the data creation figure they quote?

    --

    Today is all we really have. We should all live it well: it is our stepping stone to all of our tomorrows.

  17. Don't believe it,... They're lying to you by JRHelgeson · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I worked for Cisco Systems in the late 90's and through the dot-com bust. Starting in 1995, there was a MASSIVE undertaking to lay out fiber across the nation and throughout the world. When they pulled fiber, they didn't just pull one strand. Fiber is cheap, it is the manual labor that is incredibly expensive to bury the cables and hook them up, certify them, etc. When they buried the cables, they ran 128 pair, 256 pair. TO THIS DAY, we have MORE DARK FIBER than we have lit fiber. There is enough fiber spanning this planet to support a quintupling of bandwidth and we'll STILL have dark fiber to spare.

    Why are they 'warning' of impending bandwidth crisis? It's pretty simple.

    I was just at a customer site last week (a city government). They had a DS3 and were going to get a second one. I asked him why on earth he was getting a DS3 which is OLD telco technology. I went up to his demarc point and showed him that Qwest had a fiber cable coming into their facility that provided 100mb to the net, that they then fed into a Fujitsu FL4100, then passed it off to a DS3 mux and passed off to the customer as a copper coax connection. They had a wall filled with equipment JUST TO SLOW DOWN THE CONNECTION to a DS3 speed. Oh, and the City was paying for the electricity for all the telco equipment.

    I told him to call up Qwest and tell them to come get their crap out of his server room, take the fiber and plug it directly into his switch. And he was only going to pay $2000 a month for the 100mb connection to the internet or else good luck ever getting a permit to dig up another sidewalk in this town.

    It worked. He didn't even have to resort to the threats. Qwest knows that they NEED TO CREATE A PROBLEM IN ORDER TO CHARGE FOR THE SOLUTION. In 100% of the cases I've dealt with telco's, I've told them what the speed and feed was that I wanted, and what I was going to pay for it. Never have I had an issue. Now, I do live in the Twin Cities Metro Area, where there is plenty of bandwidth to go around, and I'm not demanding that they give me priority QoS all the way to their tier 1 core backbone, but this game they're playing is ridiculous.

    Another customer was paying $12,000 per month to get a 200mb connection to the net. I got on the horn with Qwest and told them to give us a gig connection for $10,000 per month or they can come get their gear because we weren't going to pay for the electricity for them any more. They gave us a gig connection.

    It costs $100 to provision a 10mb connection port. Heck fiber optic modules are CHEAP. Want to know how much it costs to reconfigure that link for 100mb? Same Price. It is also the same price to bring it up to a gig connection.

    They will bring in equipment for the sake of bringing in equipment, they will spend tens of thousands of dollars in gear just to slow your connection down, just so they can charge to speed it up.

    Don't fall for it.

    --
    Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
  18. That is where that sub comes in by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Remember that story from a while back, with a chinese diesel-electric sub surfacing right besides a US carrier? A clear signal by the chinese that the US is a lot more vulnerable then previously thought. It was believed that with its carriers the US could project its military power pretty much anywhere, with little fear of counter-attack. (There is a flaw in this, but I will get to that)

    IF China were to flex its military muscles it would want to pull a SUCCESFULL Pearl Harbour. That is, it wouldn't want to knock out the US or get dragged into a long war with the US, it would want to knock down US military capacity quickly, so it can move freely and then from a new position of strength try for peace. The idea of an ALLOUT US/China war is silly, neither side wants that and neither side has the capacity to fight such a war right now. China can't invade the US and the US can't invade China.

    With this submarine, China showed the US that its military power on the oceans is not as absolute as it might think. I have no idea how much of this move was due to sloppy training and the taskforce in question being on peace duty, but in theory, if the chinese had wanted it, they could have knocked out the US carriers fleets and drastically reduced the US capabilities to interfere in Chinese operations.

    This is more then just a signal to the US, it also tells countries like South-Korea, Japan, Taiwan that its US ally is not nearly as invincible as previously thought. The question these countries have to ask now is, if we offend China too much, can we count on the US to be able to protect us in time before the Chinese have overrun us? With the carriers destroyed, does the US have the capacity to stop an invasion?

    Don't underestimate just how much of US military strategy in that area of the world is based on the carriers.

    Offcourse, the question now becomes,why did the sub surface. It didn't have too. If China wanted to actually start a war, it would hardly want to give away the fact that it has subs this capable.

    No, this was all just a loud bark. China really has no interest in invading China, just like it hasn't clamped down too much on Hong Kong (became part of China recently but is still allowed a lot of freedom compared to mainland China). It just also doesn't want to appear weak. Basically the message was,"today I let you life, tomorrow who knows". A threath, to stop Taiwan from becoming too independent, South-Korea from becoming too cocky and Japan from thinking it can become a military power again. And last but not least, to stop people in China from thinking China is weak. They seen what happened to the Soviet Union. They don't want it too happen to them.

    The entire idea that China wants to invade Taiwan is flawed. It would gain nothing but a lot of trouble for it. BUT that does not mean China wants to appear weak. In a way that is part of the reason for the Iraq/Afghan war the US is in. What else could it do? Had the US not invaded it would have been a huge sign of weakness. For all the bad press the US has gotten, the message is still clear, piss them off and you will pay the price.

    But you are right, the chinese don't seem to want a war, what would they gain with it? But part of not wanting a war is making sure the rest of the world knows that they are going to get an ass kicking if they start a war with you.

    That is what most people forget, if you want peace, make sure the other guy knows that war is not an option because they would loose.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  19. Brown-outs by dintech · · Score: 3, Funny

    First the internet was a series of tubes.
    Then the tubes were full of bees.
    Now the bees are stuck in poo?