New Nerve Gas Antidotes

SoyChemist writes "Scientists from Korea and the Czech Republic have discovered new drugs that can counteract the chemical overload caused by nerve gas. All of the experimental medications belong to a family of chemicals called oximes. Those molecules reactivate the enzyme that is damaged by the chemical weapons. Last year, the FDA approved the first combined atropine and oxime auto-injector for use by emergency personnel. Israel has been providing them to their citizens since the first Gulf War."

Comments

Combined, yes. But not new.

[lecithin]

"Last year, the FDA approved the first combined atropine and oxime auto-injector for use by emergency personnel."

I don't know the history, but in 1987(and certainly earlier) the US military had this for the 'troops'. It was in 2 injectors, not one.

atropine and 2 pam chloride (a oxime)

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[Nefarious Wheel]

In Australia you can get atropine inhalers for extraordinary cases of asthma. Good for snake bite too.

Although I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes.

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[Novae D'Arx]

Like you said - Pralidoxime and Atropine injectors are extremely old-school for the US military. Although I'm happy that there are new drugs for treating nerve gas poisoning, TFA makes it sound like the "new" drugs are still completely untested - only on petri dish models, if I read it correctly. So, while there is promise, there are no human or animal efficiency results yet, no toxicity tests - all kinds of things are needed to prove that these new molecules are appropriate to replace the old ones.

That's the thing about new drugs - they look wonderful and promising for a while in the lab, then you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out. Oops - back to the drawing board.

Anyway, I'm skeptical but hopeful. I've had biochem weapons training in the Army, and nerve gases are effing nasty. More power to providing more survivability...

better explanation

[wizardforce]

Pralidoxime has been used with Atropine for a long time it seems, Atropine lessening the effects of acetylcholine its self and Pralidoxime is sacrificed to reactivate acetylcholine esterase [which helps remove acetylcholine after it is done with its job]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralidoxime

Blah, blah, blah...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I saw this in that "Rock" movie about a bazillion years ago where Sean Connery pretended he wasn't British and Nick Cage pretended he could act.

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[Mr. Freeman]

The FDA isn't going to approve it without sufficient testing. Although there's no way they exposed a human to nerve gas and then used these drugs to see if it worked, there's no way that kind of test will EVER happen. The best they can do is what they've already done and that was sufficient to get it approved.

Also, these drugs don't need to be tested as thoroughly as other drugs that would be taken on a normal basis. For example, the Advil you buy at the store had better damn well be tested enough that you know what's going to happen when you take it, because you take it on a normal basis. But a drug to counteract a nerve toxin is only going to be taken if you've been exposed to the nerve toxin. At that point, it's either die from the nerve toxin or have at least some chance of survival by taking this new drug. If it kills you, you were going to die anyway, if it doesn't then you live.

Excuse to piss in public

[YU5333021]

I'm being serious here... In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.

???????

This was commonly done in WWI during nerve gas attacks. With lack of gas masks, the best way to protect yourself was to breathe through a cloth soaked in ammonia. Piss being the easiest source of it.

The modern gases may be way more advanced than what was used in early 20th century, so my approach may come across as dumb, but if they find my dead body sucking on a piss stained sock, I won't care much. I'll be dead.

Re:Excuse to piss in public

[Hunter-Killer]

Many nerve agents are absorbed through the skin, though getting a lungful won't do you any favors either. In the event of aerial disbursement, you'd have better chances with a poncho, rain coat, or even wearing a garbage bag. Unfortunately for you, in the event people are still able to move (and react), you would likely be knocked over and trampled in the resulting panic while trying to get your sock off.

Re:Excuse to piss in public

[ArcherB]

I'm being serious here... In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.

If you really worried about it, you could just carry around a water filter. They make small ones for sports bottles, although, I don't know how easy they are to breathe through. Either way, they seem to have the same stuff in them as modern gas masks. It may work in a pinch and no one runs over your ass while you are standing there DIH, too panicked to piss on a sock.

Re:Excuse to piss in public

[wizardforce]

ammonia was "effective" for preventing poisoning from previous gas attacks because a lot of these gases were acidic/electrophillic. Phosgene in particular would hydrolyze to CO2 and hydrochloric acid in your lungs thus causing you to drown in your own lung fluids. Ammonia is a base thus neutralizing a lot of the hydrochloric acid produced. Urine contains a number of nitrogeneous compounds one of which is Urea which hydrolyzes into Ammonia and CO2.

Re:Excuse to piss in public

[bagsc]

Piss won't help with any nerve agent. That tactic was partly effective against chlorine gas, which is soluble in water, so any water soaked rag will partly protect you. I say 'partly,' because even if your lungs and mucous membranes in the mouth and nose were protected in low concentrations of the gas, your eyes and skin are not. If it's a high concentration, you can see and smell it coming, so you get a chance to run. Of course, if you're stuck in a high concentration of chlorine gas, you're pretty much boned.

Oh, and the ammonia neutralizing chlorine is also not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_gas_in_World_War_I

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[theMerovingian]

then you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out

Military members are statutorily barred from suing the government for injuries arising in the line of duty. See here.

Government contractors are also immune from products liability suits, so long as the product in question was designed according to military specifications. See here.

Things the recruiter doesn't tell you... Hopefully the government tests carefully before using!

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[neapolitan]

Exactly - every doctor learned this back in medical school; atropine is a temporary fix (anti-cholinergic) and pralidoxime allows regeneration of AChesterase to some degree so your body can naturally remove it. It's a little bit of a juggling act, and needs monitoring for levels. Most (civilian) MDs see something like this with pesticide spray (farmer inadvertently sticks his hand in liquid "nerve gas" organophosphate bug spray, etc.) not chemical attacks, but we all get training in this (standard emergency medicine situation).

The new drug is also an oxime -- you can look at the compound and it "looks" like two pralidoxime molecules joined together with a short linking segment (compare this to this. The goal is potency -- I've never personally injected pralidoxime, but I understand its effects on regeneration are limited.

Interestingly enough, in the otherwise healthy individual atropine would "just" cause your heartrate to skyrocket. If I were Nick Cage in that scene, I would go ahead and inject it into a vein, not the heart. Intra-cardiac injection can be used, but only as a last, last resort (e.g. the person is about to go unconscious, they are the only ones who can deliver the medication, no IV to use / no way to reliably otherwise introduce the drug, etc. etc.) It makes for dramatic movie moments, though!

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[dirtsurfer]

Hey man, you want a hit of this? This stuff'll melt the testicles off a monkey

Re:Why does Israel continue to be a pariah in the

[Entropius]

The whole thing is a wonderful ball of insanity, as everybody thinks that their own interpretation of the Invisible Friend in the Sky wants them to occupy some particular patch of dirt.

If anyone's technically to blame for the problems in the Middle East, it's the Jews -- the ancient Jews, who were the first to invent the eternally-PMS'ing, cranky, smite-happy, horse-blinders-distributing warmongering Jehovah.

The world would be a much more peaceful place if the three Abrahamic religions vanished tomorrow.

Nothing new here

[mysterious_mark]

The US Military has been using Atropine auto injectors since the 70's, but there's no requirement for FDA approval. There's also a auto injector of Pam-2 chloride to be used to neutralize the toxicity of the Atropine. The Atropine and Pam-2 chloride injectors are issued in a box of two each that each soldier/sailor/marine carries when at 'MOPP' level anticipating a chemical attack or training for such. Anyone whose been through basic training or who has trained with a combat related unit probably has fond memories of long hours spent in MOPP suites, gas masks, and practice with the fake injectors for training. The only difference I see with this new antidote is that's its FDA approved for civilian use. Mark

Re:Combined, yes. But not new.

[budgenator]

A typical dose for atropine is 0.4 mg and is that very useful for colds and before surgery or dental work becuase it dries you up pretty good and ounces stuff isn't running down your throat; for nerve gas antidote that typical dose of atropine is 2.0 mg and it's not unusual for a second dose to be give 10 minutes later if the patients heart rate isn't at 120 and is very usful for keeping gallons of stuff from running down your thorat. We also classify nerve agent as reversable and irriversable i.e. a trversable agent is one where an antidote will reactivate the ACE denatured by the nerve gass, these oximes will only work with the reversables; if you get into something irreversable like VX the oximes are useless.