Is It Time for a 'Kinder, Gentler HTML'?

jg21 writes "Via the Web 2.0 Journal, a worthy link to Yahoo! Architect and JSON inventor Douglas Crockford's latest ideas to fix HTML. He's categorically not a fan of HTML 5, which is still just an Editor's Draft and not endorsed by W3C yet. Crock puts forward ten ideas that in his view would provide extensibility without complexity, adding that the simplification of HTML he is proposing would reduce the cost of training of web developers and incorporates the best practices of AJAX development. From the article: 'The problems with HTML will not be solved by making it bigger and more complicated. I think instead we should generalize what it does well, while excising features that are problematic. HTML can be made into a general application delivery format without disrupting its original role as a document format.'"

Comments

Re:Not Impressed

[AKAImBatman]

Seeing as you seem to be involved with the HTML 5 proposal

If you count arguing on the mailing list a few times and coming up with a new Canvas adapter (still WIP) for IE, then I suppose. :-)

When will HTML 5 be finished?
It is estimated that HTML5 will reach a W3C recommendation in the year 2022 or later. This will be approximately 18-20 years of development, since beginning in mid-2004.

Reading that FAQ entry in its entirety helps clarify the issue; at least for me. The WHATWG is being pragmatic about how long it will take them to both get a 100% complete standard (it has continued to evolve, even after being submitted to the W3C) and get everyone on board with it. People don't realize quite how long it took to get the variations of CSS, DOM, and HTML4 standardized and implemented. They've been available for over a decade, but we're only reaping the benefits of these standards now.

That being said, the W3C does expect parts of the specification to be implemented sooner rather than later:

The details are still being worked out, but the plan is to indicate the maturity level on a per-section basis. Sections like the Link Types, which is relatively simple, isn't going to take long to become interoperably implemented. In fact, Mozilla is already implementing the new autodiscovery features for Firefox 3.0, and it shouldn't take long for places like Technorati, Bloglines, etc. to implement follow.

In result, it really doesn't matter when the HTML 5 standard is fully realized. We will be (and already are) reaping the benefits of it long before it's 100% complete.

Of course, they did get it submitted to the W3C ahead of schedule. And the W3C is taking it more seriously than originally expected. So don't be surprised if they're ahead of schedule on completion. ;-)

Re:Hmmm

[AKAImBatman]

I like the getElementsByCSSSelector() idea.

I think it's kind of self-defeating. On one hand he advocates custom-tag creation, then he advocates elements by tag selector. Encouraging one or the other is fine. But offering both will only confuse developers and undermine both options. Going with custom tags is probably the better solution as it encapsulates the semantic information a programmer would be looking for while still being unique enough to style with CSS.

That being said, if you really want that feature try this script:
http://simonwillison.net/2003/Mar/25/getElementsBySelector/

I want javascript access to the css parse tree just like with the DOM.

I think you want to read the DOM Level 2 Style Specification. The short answer is: Yes, the CSS is accessible through DOM APIs. The long answer involves lots of shouting and complaining about Microsoft and their stranglehold on the market. :-)

Re:Not Impressed

[alan_dershowitz]

I am so informed it would blow your mind. Setting font properties at the body doesn't cascade for all elements that result in a font onscreen. Try it. With regards to the default stylesheet, that is different than "unstyled." Without using CSS at all you still have margins, there is still a default font size for different elements, there is spacing, things like links have colors, underlines, and hover/selected attributes specified. I am saying there should be a way to tell the browser to disable ALL styling so that there are no margins, no spacing, no default font family, size or weight. ALL of this would have to be specified in your stylesheet at that point.

Basically, there is a reason that CSS RESET stylsheets have been created, and it is to get the browser back to a simulated "unstyled" state. It is stupid and should be unnecessary. It's a workaround for a deficiency in current browser tech. I say fix the tech. Part of the problem with CSS is that your selectors have to assume that each browser has a different baseline, when the baseline should itself be a stylesheet that can be turned off (I am not talking about user-specified stylesheets, which should still override. Not the same as a browser baseline.)