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NASA Snaps Mysterious "Night-Shining" Clouds

coondoggie writes to tell us that NASA has captured some pretty impressive images of the Alluring noctilucent (or "night-shining") clouds. These clouds are made up of ice crystals and dust and are formed at high altitudes near the poles. "Very little is known about how these clouds form over the poles, why they are being seen more frequently and at lower latitudes than ever before, or why they have been growing brighter. AIM will observe two complete cloud seasons over both poles, documenting an entire life cycle of the shiny clouds for the first time. 'It is clear that these clouds are changing, a sign that a part of our atmosphere is changing and we do not understand how, why or what it means,' stated AIM principal investigator James Russell III of Hampton University, Hampton, Va. 'These observations suggest a connection with global change in the lower atmosphere and could represent an early warning that our Earth environment is being changed.'"

19 of 198 comments (clear)

  1. Heh... by Otter · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ...stated AIM principal investigator James Russell III of Hampton University, Hampton, Va. 'These observations suggest a connection with global change in the lower atmosphere and could represent an early warning that our Earth environment is being changed."

    That may well be entirely true, but I recognize a cousin to the "...and therefore may lead to new treatments for cancer." that molecular biologists ritualistically slap at the end of every grant application.

    1. Re:Heh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      > > ...stated AIM principal investigator James Russell III of Hampton University, Hampton, Va. 'These observations suggest a connection with global change in the lower atmosphere and could represent an early warning that our Earth environment is being changed."
      >
      > That may well be entirely true, but I recognize a cousin to the "...and therefore may lead to new treatments for cancer." that molecular biologists ritualistically slap at the end of every grant application.

      ...and the "and may enhance the delivery of warfighting, logistics, surveillance, and security capabilities" that shows up on every grant application for any technology R&D project.

    2. Re:Heh... by moderatorrater · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disagree. I look at Global Warming as the cause like I look to the latest code change as the cause of a never before seen software bug. The chances that a new phenomena is occurring in the atmosphere that's never occurred before being completely unrelated to another widespread, unprecedented phenomena is relatively low. They're not just tacking on a buzzword, they're drawing the obvious link.

    3. Re:Heh... by huckamania · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was going to mod some of the other posts...

      First, Global Warming is passe, try Global Climate Change. That's a better term for your crowd because when it snows in April you can relate it to Global Climate Change. It has the added benefit of being completely true since no one is going to argue for Global Climate Stasis.

      Second, science is about confirming links, obvious (to you) or not. Not that this study is going to actual confirm anything. Studying something for 2 years will not allow them or you or anyone to draw any conclusions about whether Global Climate Change is the cause.

      Third, the conclusion that this is a new phenomenon is on shaky ground. Same can be said for the ozone hole. A better label would be a phenomenon we've never noticed before. I'm sure one of Newton's contemporaries probably labeled gravity as a new phenomenon, as if everyone was floating around in zero G before the apple fell on Wayne's head.

    4. Re:Heh... by Otter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These clouds aren't unprecedented. What's novel (besides the imaging of them) is that their location, timing and density are supposedly changing. That may in fact have to do with global warming, or be the result of some other human-caused process, but if you're going to make the assumption that anything variable in the atmosphere is necessarily related to climate change -- that pretty much makes my point.

    5. Re:Heh... by Planesdragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When people say temperature decreases are part of global warming it is a cop out for global warming proponents who really don't know what is going on which makes them right no matter what happens. Convenient isn't it? Scary. Not convenient.

      The "Climate Crisis" interpretation is that, due to the sudden rise of atmospheric carbon, we're in danger of not just a few degrees of warmth or sea level jumping a hundred feet, but a cascading series of feedback loops that will render Earth wholly uninhabitable.

      We know the temperature is going up. We know that carbon in the air is going up. We know that we're tossing an awful lot of carbon into the air We can see a clear correlation between temperature and carbon going back a few thousand years.

      Don't YOU think that's enough to, I don't know, stop tossing carbon into the air and see what happens? If it turns out to do nothing, we can just let you burn dinosaurs again. I know I'd rather lose my next paycheck than die.
    6. Re:Heh... by Markus+Landgren · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You make the flawed assumption that the global warming is all about absolute levels. It is not, it is all about rates of change. Sure, the Earth's climate has bounced all over the place. But it hasn't changed on time scales as short as we are seeing now. And it's the fast changes that makes the planet less habitable, moreso than the target values.

  2. Best quote ever! by LingNoi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is clear that these clouds are changing, a sign that a part of our atmosphere is changing and we do not understand how, why or what it means,
    That has to be the first honest answer I have read from someone on our climate, ever.

    We hear too often from these climate "experts", finally someone is ready to admit that our climate is so big and complex that we don't know exactly how it all works.
    1. Re:Best quote ever! by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i don't believe it's even "clear" that it's an indicator our climate is changing. in TFA they don't even consider that maybe they are just getting better at knowing where to look for them, hence they see more.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Best quote ever! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ask any atmospheric physicist how things like that work and they will almost certainly tell you: We don't know.

      If there's one thing I learned during my Atmospheric Physics course at university, it's that we only have somewhat good ideas, or decent approximations of how some of these things work in the best case, and vague approximations or no fricking clue in the worst cases.

      This is why it bothers me so much when people talk about global climate change as if they know what is going to happen. Is it happening? Yeah! Is it probably not good? Yeah! Do we even know enough to be crying end of the world? No!

    3. Re:Best quote ever! by samkass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it happening? Yeah! Is it probably not good? Yeah! Do we even know enough to be crying end of the world? No!

      Will we ever know enough before it's too late? Probably not! Can we do some good things now to give us more time to learn what's going on? Not if everyone has your attitude...

      If you continue to analyze until you completely understand everything, the time for effective action is probably long past.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    4. Re:Best quote ever! by domatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does this mean we can randomly diddle the knobs of a complex system we don't understand and expect no consequences? No!

  3. It's all about knowing how to get the dollars by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Global warming is the big scare in the climate world right now, so it is how you get money for environmental research. You write a proposal to study some owl that isn't endangered but might become so that nobody gives a shit about and you get no money. However you change it up and talk about how you want to study the impact of global warming on it, bam you gots money.

    Same shit with terrorism in other areas. Can't get money for an anti-crime initiative? Just make it an anti-terror initiative! You get money thrown at you. Hell, ConEd did that with their new superconducting power line. They wanted government help building the thing so they spun it is being resistant to terrorist attack. Maybe true, but that isn't why they are doing it. They are doing it because the old system failed due to overload, not attack.

    It is sadly common in the world, and research is no different. You find what is hot in a given field and you'll see all kinds of shit that shouldn't be getting tied in to that to try and get money.

  4. Interpreting the data to fit with the times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Very little is known about how these clouds form over the poles, why they are being seen more frequently and at lower latitudes than ever before, or why they have been growing brighter. AIM will observe two complete cloud seasons over both poles, documenting an entire life cycle of the shiny clouds for the first time."

    "These observations suggest a connection with global change in the lower atmosphere and could represent an early warning that our Earth environment is being changed."

    * It could also suggest that documentation has been poor in the past (ref. quote 1) and that the higher rate is because more effort is spent on registering the climate in general.

    * It could also suggest a _purely local_ non-human-related change. After all, the middle ages warm period has been discounted by climatologists as a purely half-a-hemisphere local phenomenon. There is hence no reason why the climate should not change in one region of the world alone.

    * It could also suggest a _purely local_ human-related change, e.g. if it is related to soot in the atmosphere, or NOx

    * It could also suggest a _cyclical_ event, either globally or locally, which the expressions used ('is being changed') alludes away from.

    Simply saying "The observations could suggest that XYZ" is an unprofessional statement. All observations could suggest a large number of things - so if it is just a suggestion and you are a professional, do not make a statement on it, while if it is very likely to be, then say that it is likely instead.

  5. Re:These Clouds are Filamentary by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Despite their 'proximity' to space, they are still deep within the atmosphere and at a pressure considerably above that typical of plasmas. Looks can be decieving.

  6. Because you are looking for them! by dotancohen · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Very little is known about how these clouds form over the poles, why they are being seen more frequently and at lower latitudes than ever before, or why they have been growing brighter. They are being seen more frequently now, because you are looking for them now! Just like those big waves that were denied existence until you went looking for them, and what do you know, they're all over the place. NASA needs to collect at least 100 years data before they can start generalizing about pattern and changes.
    --
    It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  7. Re:Accuracy? by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful
    you linked to wikipedia for EVERY fucking source.

    you lose.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  8. Re:Accuracy? by scottishfae · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And of course there is also the evidence that this warming trend in our environment today is simply a part of Earth's cycle. It's a natural phenomenon, possibly helped further along by humans technological progression, but also just as likely helped by, you know, things like...volcanic eruptions, which can spew more CO2 in the air than most large cities and their car-driving occupants. The thing is, they've documented similar trends in the environment before, not in recent history granted, but if there is anything we've learned from observing the world around us, it should be that things work in cycles. Hell, I remember it every time I point and laugh at the women walking down the street in hideous clothing brought back from the 80s.

    I do want to point out that I'm not saying that holding big corporations responsible to try and keep their production "clean" is bad, but at the same time, I think most Global Warming Activists are sensationalists who try and use scare tactics to try and get their message across. And when that happens, you're simply no better than Bush and his current administration.

  9. Re:"steamed hams"? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    could represent an early warning that our Earth environment is being changed
    It amazes that people are still looking for warnings, as if the actual warming of the earth's atmosphere, and the fact that there is more agreement among climate scientists on this issue than almost any other issue in all of science, just isn't enough.

    I mean, I understand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but do we really need to wait until the house burns to the ground before we'll agree that the bitch is on fire? Isn't the smoke rising through the floorboards enough? It's amazing the number the oil companies and the right-wing media have done on us. Every other developed country in the world is at least sitting down and agreeing to try to minimize carbon emissions except the US. And we act all shocked and hurt when the rest of the world thinks we're total assholes.
    --
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