Slashdot Mirror


Dutch ODF Plan Could Sideline Microsoft

Yeti7226 sends word of a discussion coming up Wednesday in the parliament of The Netherlands that could result in mandated use of Open Document Format at government agencies there. If the plan is enacted, public-sector organizations, as well as the government, would have to transition to using ODF by 2010. Microsoft Netherlands has lobbied hard against the provision. Backers say it doesn't exclude Microsoft, because ODF can be produced out of MS Office via the use of plugins. A funder of the OpenDoc Society invited Microsoft to join that organization, saying: "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."

25 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. Open Data is also mentioned by Skinkie · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Dutch devision of OpenStreetMap also send in a letter to the commission about the need for Open/Free Data. Standards are important, but the reuse of existing government work is too.

    --
    Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
  2. Well no wonder by overshoot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."
    That's the problem now, isn't it?
    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Well no wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Luckily Microsoft keeps emailing letters explaining why they shouldn't switch using the latest .doc format, which no one can read.

    2. Re:Well no wonder by rucs_hack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      a bigger problem from microsofts point of view is that they made such a fuss about not being able to implement ODF in office, and now they may have to, showing their previous statements to be lies.
      (well, perhaps it won't be too hard, after all it happens so often :)

      Reliance on plug ins for office ODF compatibility would be crazy, either they implement it on the 'save as' menu, and allow it to be chosen as default, or they get sidelined by users as being too much work when compared to a simple and quick save operation.

    3. Re:Well no wonder by Palestrina · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But you can't implement all of Office's features in OOXML either. Macros, scripts, DRM, etc., are not part of OOXML.

  3. Very much about Microsoft by zooblethorpe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A funder of the OpenDoc Society invited Microsoft to join that organization, saying: "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."

    ... which actually makes it very much about Microsoft, since they have purposefully done so much to ensure precisely the opposite. Planned obsolescence and crufty undocumented file formats are perfectly in Microsoft's favor as a means of forcing MS Office users to pay the upgrade tax every few years, regardless of whether the new Office versions include any compelling new functionality, what with older versions suddenly no longer able to read the "same" .doc file format produced by the newer versions. With ODF, we know what we're getting -- and that's what scares the pants of Microsoft.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Very much about Microsoft by Sentry21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Planned obsolescence and crufty undocumented file formats are perfectly in Microsoft's favor For an example of crufy file formats in action, read about Word 98's classic security hole - including random chunks of data/disk into its files. Present in Office 98 for Mac, as well as Office 97 for Windows, and older Mac versions (As far back as 6).

      http://www.macintouch.com/o98security.html

      Then again, I suppose this sort of thing isn't guaranteed against with ODF, since anyone can write a terrible parser for any file format. Microsoft is just really good at it, that's all.
  4. MSFT makes a counter offer by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Funny
    A funder of the OpenDoc Society invited Microsoft to join that organization, saying: "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."

    MSFT countered saying that it has nothing against its users ensuring perpetual availability of their data residing in their machines and it would gladly join the organization if Microsoft's right to perpetual profits could be guaranteed.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  5. Bluff? by calebt3 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How likely is it that these people have figured out that ODF pushes Microsoft's buttons and are using it to secure better deals?

    1. Re:Bluff? by risk+one · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's important to consider the structure of Dutch government in this case. The Netherlands have a system of many parties. There are some big ones, two of which usually make up the government, with a third smaller one. But the Dutch congress (which can veto bills, and bring up points of discussion) comprises all parties that got some minimum number of votes. I suppose most parliamentary democracies work this way, but the difference with countries like America and the UK is that in the Netherlands there is actually great diversity of parties in congress, many of which are small enough to really care about the issues. And a common divisor between all the parties that aren't in government is that none of them will care much about how great a deal the government is going to get from Microsoft (especially when there are free alternatives).

      Don't get me wrong, we don't have a magnificent government at the moment, but the parliament usually works pretty well. The one party that would be most sympathetic to Microsoft here is the liberal VVD, and one of their prominent politicians is the Eurocommisioner that managed to give Microsoft a kicking in the recent antitrust suit. There is some hope for this one.

    2. Re:Bluff? by Yeti7226 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As one of the authors of the parliament motion that started this policy track back in 2002 and someone who had the oportunity to advise the minister personally I can categorically state that this is not the intention of the plan. It is also not the intention to ban any specific product or any vendor. If certain public institutions wish to use a proprietary word processor that is fine. They just have to store their documents in a neutral format so that others remain free to use the tools of their choosing. This is about the freedom to choose, both for government organizations and citizens who wish to access government documents.

      If because of this someone can get a good deal on licenses than that's less cost for the taxpayer so that also a 'good thing'.

      Arjen

  6. Misleading Title on the Article by pilbender · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The article title talks about getting rid of Microsoft but it's really about doing the right thing to serve the people. The article content has nothing to do with the title. There's no need for a title like this. I hate to see this nonsense. It diverts from what really matters.

    Governments *MUST* do this. Public documents are public domain, not Microsoft's (or any other company's) hostage.

    We need to continue to have articles posted (even though they get old sometimes) here that push these issues and lay them out for people because they are so important.

    --
    Fresh horses and more whiskey for my men.
    1. Re:Misleading Title on the Article by dwandy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Public documents are public domain, not Microsoft's (or any other company's) hostage.
      The problem is that most people believe that MS Word is a public data-exchange format (ie: that if you write something in MS Word that anyone can read it, edit it etc.)

      So the fundamental issue is that most people aren't even aware that there is a problem to deal with.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    2. Re:Misleading Title on the Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      The article title talks about getting rid of Microsoft but it's really about doing the right thing to serve the people.
      Same thing?
  7. Don't you believe it! by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It *IS* all about Microsoft.

    I say this jokingly, but also quite seriously. Jokingly because technically, it isn't about Microsoft... it could easily have been about Word Perfect if they were still the dominator in document formats. Truly, it is about perpetual access to data through the used of non-proprietary and fully documented formats. "ODF" isn't here to stay... it might last another 10, maybe 20 years at most before something far superior comes along. But ODF is fully documented and could be translated into whatever the next great format standard will be.

    But seriously, it *IS* about Microsoft because Microsoft has lost the trust of their users and customers. They have done this with amazingly consistent and persistent erosion. With every new release, with every security problem, with every denial, with every DRM addition, with every copyright protection service, with every Genuine Advantage(r), with every BSA audit, with every criminal conviction, with every attempt to evade or forestall punishment, with every shameless act for which they have become quite notorious in the IT community... the ignorant public has started to notice what upsets their nerds ever so much. And now they are starting to re-think the way they store their data because at any moment, they want to be able to change their operating platform. They trusted Microsoft for at least the past 10 years with their operating systems, applications and data. Microsoft had their, our and even my personal trust for quite some time. The trust is gone or disappearing and now people are taking action.

    And is it really the best way for Microsoft to handle this problem? I mean to lobby and complain? Why not attempt to save their business by changing their course and direction!? What is so bad about change?! Is actual competition too much for Microsoft to handle? Can't they just make a "better product" instead of playing all of these government games?

    Perhaps the Microsoft apologists would care to suggest a possible reason why they can just serve the interests of their customers rather than fighting to save their business model? The customer wants ODF. Why shouldn't Microsoft provide that to them?

    1. Re:Don't you believe it! by el+cisne · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "And is it really the best way for Microsoft to handle this problem? "
      It is the only way they know how.

      "I mean to lobby and complain? Why not attempt to save their business by changing their course and direction!? "
      They can no more change this course and direction than we can change our own DNA (excluding retroviruses, etc). Besides, they'd have to want to change. And they don't. They pride themselves in this method and culture and approach.

      "What is so bad about change?!
      It hurts. It is unfamiliar. The outcome is not certain. Like Dell now trying to do retail. Don't think that was the first thing on their list. They are having to play in a game in which they are newcomers.

      "Is actual competition too much for Microsoft to handle? "
      Yes. They don't know how to compete the normal way. With an actual salable product, on the merits.

      "Can't they just make a "better product" instead of playing all of these government games?"
      This IS their product. It is what they do, what they are best at. What they do better than anyone else. Software is just the arena. They are not so much a software company as they are a "protect windows and office at all freaking costs" company. That is the bottom line to everything they do.

  8. Good by wijsneus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    As a dutch web-developer who has to adhere to the Dutch Guidelines for the accessibility and sustainability of government websites. I can finally meet the requirement to:

    [...] use (open) standards - if available - for structure, meaning, representation, identification, presentation, storage and access. [...]
    Which means no more PDF hell. As most PDF-formats have proprietary extensions, or have accessibility issues, currently I can only officially/legally use PDF/A-1a. As you can imagine, this is a royal pain in the back for my customers who have to export all their documents and get the PDF settings juuust right. In the future they can just upload the documents and link to them. (Yaay for us!)
  9. "Free!" (TM) (c) [Pat. Pend.] by zooblethorpe · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since when is free equal to $130 or whatever MS Office is at now?

    See, that's the beauty of " Free! " (TM) (c) [Pat. Pend.] [All rights withheld by Microsoft, 2007] -- you can " Freely! " make anything equal anything else! What convenience, what ease of use, what utility! A few examples: Winter is the new summer, Stay the course, Up is down, Copyright is good for the consumer! Rinsema is simply worried that not enough people know about this Fantastic! New! Opportunity!, and is trying to make sure everyone knows that " Free! " is actually equal to $130 or whatever MS Office sells for.

    It's all perfectly logical, really.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  10. Re:Of course... by Rocky+Mudbutt · · Score: 4, Informative

    I for one will buy the first iPod-clone that supports Vorbis. Rockbox (GPL) supports Ogg/Vorbis and many other codecs on a number of platforms. I have thouosands of hours of Ogg music on my iPod running Rockbox. Never use the Apple software, it's not useful to me. I don't miss iTunes.
    So what's preventing you from freeing yourself from proprietary software? Certainly not the hardware.
    --
    Ethics II Axiom 2. "Man thinks." B. Spinoza
  11. Dutch tradition by starfishsystems · · Score: 5, Informative
    The Netherlands has a strong tradition of liberal democracy based on a sense of people taking care of each other. And it has given the world some great thinkers in Computer Science as well.

    Intitiatives like this one are likely to succeed here because they will be widely seen to make good sense.

    There is nothing to prevent Microsoft from being part of the solution. Or it can be part of the precipitate.

    --
    Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
  12. Behavioral Psych 101 by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Reliance on plug ins for office ODF compatibility would be crazy, either they implement it on the 'save as' menu, and allow it to be chosen as default, or they get sidelined by users as being too much work when compared to a simple and quick save operation.
    They tried playing chicken in Mass. and it worked. My bet is that they want use of ODF to be as painful and damn-well-useless as possible so that (in their wet dreams) people stage riots in the streets and halls of Parliament demanding MSOffice.
    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  13. No, it's true... Microsoft did a proof: by CaptainPatent · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since when is free equal to $130 or whatever MS Office is at now? Since Microsoft released their mathematical proof showing that all Microsoft products are free:
            * Step 1: Let a = b.
            * Step 2: Then a^2 = ab ,
            * Step 3: a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab ,
            * Step 4: 2a^2 = a^2 + ab ,
            * Step 5: 2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab ,
            * Step 6: and 2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 - ab .
            * Step 7: This can be written as 2(a^2 - ab) = 1(a^2 - ab) ,
            * Step 8: and canceling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides gives 1=2.
            * Step 9: We then subtract 1 from each side which gives us 0=1
            * Step 8: then multiplying by x where x is the price of the Microsoft suite you are investing in... you will note that x=0 and thus Microsoft is completely free!
    --
    Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    1. Re:No, it's true... Microsoft did a proof: by CaptainPatent · · Score: 4, Funny

      Substituting step 2 into the equation at step 7 gives us 2*(0) = 1*(0) ... which is true, but then step 8 which reads "canceling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides" is actually a divide-by-zero error on both sides which is where it all goes awry. Shhhhhhh!
      This is Microsoft, there's no error!
      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
  14. Re:Microsoft whining in the press by grahamd0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The funniest thing about the whole situation is that if Microsoft just shut up and added ODF support to Office, they could turn around and say, "Buy your Office 2008 licenses! It's got ODF support, you NEED ODF support!".

  15. Liberal as in conservative by DrFruit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At the risk of sliding off into OT territory, some points made about the Dutch political system probably need clarification. The Dutch consider their liberal party VVD to represent a conservative or capitalist point of view and do not view them as left wing or bleeding heart; quite the opposite. Our 'liberals' would likely vote Republican in the States.
    Mrs Kroes, the commissioner who made MS bleed, is all the more effective as an antitrust fighter because she knows from past experience how board rooms operate. Apparently, it is possible to be a capitalist and believe that corporations should behave properly.
    I agree that our system, imperfect though it may be, seems to at least resemble something like a democracy.