Auto Mileage Standards Raised to 35 mpg

Ponca City, We Love You writes "The Senate just passed a bill that will increase auto mileage standards for the first time in three decades. The auto industry's fleet of new cars, sport utility vehicles, pickup trucks and vans will have to average 35 mpg by 2020, a significant increase over the 2008 requirement of 27.5 mpg average. For consumers, the legislation will mean that over the next dozen years auto companies will likely build more diesel-powered SUVs and gas-electric hybrid cars as well as vehicles that can run on 85 percent ethanol. Automakers had vehemently opposed legislation in June that contained the same mileage requirements and Fortune magazine reported that American automakers were starting the miles-per-gallon race far behind Japan and that the new standards could doom US automakers. At the time, Chrysler officially put the cost of meeting the proposed rules at $6,700 per vehicle. The White House announced the President will sign the bill if it comes to his desk."

Comments

Finally.

[MostAwesomeDude]

I own a Ford Escort from the turn of the century. It may not be very pretty, or very fast, but gets roughly 40 MPG. I can't understand how people are content with their goddamn SUVs getting 25 or less miles to the gallon. Oh well.

Re:Finally.

[vidarh]

I come from Norway. We drive normal cars, including lots of Japanese compacts, even when the snow is meter high, because we've actually heard of things like ploughs, and winter-tyres, combined with chains for the wheels if things get extreme. Somehow it's never a problem, so that's a pitiful excuse.

Re:Finally.

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Quebec, CANADA.

As you may know, we aren't as rich as the US and cars/SUV/Trucks are more costly than the US. If you come here, you'll see that the compact cars are very popular. Trucks and SUV is something you don't see often, except in construction. For the same truck, we can see a difference of 15 000$ US, some time more, between you and us, even if our dollar is near or at parity with the US dollar since two years.

Honda Civic, Pontiac Sunfire, Chevrolet Cavalier are best-selling cars right here, especially Civic. For your, the USA, those kind of car are sh*t. I went to the USA and it's very rare that I see those cars...

That being said, our winter is same or even worse than in the North of the US, and still, we manage to drive in the roads even in the big snow storm with the small car. You don't need a SUV if you know how to drive in that kind of conditions. For sure, it helps a lot, but did you know that among the accidents that happens because of the snow, it's the SUV that are often out of the roads, upside down. I'm not exaggerating, it's in the statistics of the Surete du Quebec (Our "state police").

The main reason (this is my own opinion) is that the driver is feeling too confident because he have a SUV. It's big, it has four wheel drives and the driver think he is better than the small cars, you know, those small sh*t that are having a hard time in the storm.

If you know how to drive with your car in all conditions, you won't have any issue even in severe snow storm, car or SUV or Truck, no matter what. Been there, done that. I sometime drive in those conditions, it's not easy (you know, that kind of server snow storm in the night that you cannot see more than 1 feed ahead of you with almost 10 inch of snow on the roads) but if you adapt your driving ability in all conditions, you will go everywhere with your car. Of course, I did it because I didn't have choice, otherwise I would stayed home.

We never put chains on our wheels, it's forbidden by the Law because it breaks the roads.

It's all the driver, not the vehicle.

Re:Finally.

[chuckymonkey]

You know, I lived in Northern Michigan for 18 years and never once owned a truck or SUV. I got by just fine with snow tires and two wheel drive. I would laugh at all these idiots sitting in the ditch with their truck because they somehow got the notion in their head that they were invincible because they had 4X4, ABS, and TCS. They key thing that they all seem to forget is that 4X4 is nice for getting up and going, you can't stop any faster, and when you lose control of a 4X4 no amount of fancy driving is going to save you. A front wheel drive however will usually pull out of a skid if you turn into it, the opposite for a rear wheel drive.

Re:Finally.

[JerkBoB]

In the US, is it required to take a slippery driving course to get a drivers' license? Or is it up to the individual states? Anyway, it is mandatory here (in Sweden)since some time ago, and it was quite interesting. You learned what to do and what to not do, as well as what happens if you do the wrong thing (such as turning and braking at the same time).

Sadly, no. That would be a really great idea, but here in the States, driving is seen as a right, not a privilege. Any monkey can take the written part of a driving exam, and the road portion simply requires basic driving skills (i.e. don't drive off the road; don't run red lights; try to remember to signal before turning; demonstrate marginal ability to parallel park).

Personally, I have been messing around in the snow for years, and have learned the hard way a few times what can and can't be done. Driving a 20-year-old beater for my first few winters helped. But I suspect that most people don't bother to try and push the snow-performance envelope of their vehicles. So, they don't understand what happens when they take a turn too fast, or try to stop on ice, etc.

I live in Maine now (as far Northeast as one can get in the States), but I grew up in central Pennsylvania (mid-Atlantic state). It still amuses and amazes me that the kind of snow we get here on a routine basis would be cause for emergency (literally) and panic in PA. Here, they don't even bother shutting the schools down unless it looks like there's going to be at least half a foot. In PA, a light dusting of snow results in car accidents and other hilarity.

Re:Finally.

[Alioth]

I saw the results of this lack of driver training with most chortlesome results.

I was visiting friends in Utah, and as normal, we were going up to Alta for some skiing. In the 2wd Jetta TDi. In the snow. We were making good (but very careful) progress - the roads had the worst type of slippery compacted snow you usually get, and going up the mountain, you have to be careful to maintain traction.

Then a 4wd SUV roared past us.

Three hundred yards later, the same SUV was stuck in a ditch, back wheels in the air. It was still there when we came back down the mountain later that day.

My friend there had in some ways a downturn in fortune (divorce) and now drives a 16 year old Civic. We still go up the mountain in the Civic. Never got stuck. We still see SUVs stuck in the ditch from time to time. Never cars, always SUVs.

Ugh

[DavidShor]

Why exactly is Corn Ethanol a good thing? Haven't we caused enough food riots and inflation worldwide with this policy?

And I'm not really thrilled with the other provisions of the bill, namely requiring 15% of every utility's power from every state to come from non-renewable sources. This is going to draw a lot of capital away from Nuclear energy, and in the states without wind or clear skies, will likely prompt a lot of wasteful programs(Apparently, burning Forests for energy counts as renewable energy).

And the CAFE standards? I don't care enough to fight about it(mainly since it seems the market is heading that way anyway), but I would prefer more specific mandates that don't smack of populism. CO2 emissions are pretty poorly tied to gasoline consumption, and regulation on tail-pipe CO2 emission would make a lot more environmental sense(And cost a lot less money), at least until a carbon credit scheme is implemented.

The funny thing, is that nobody is even considering implementing CAFE standards for the military and other government agencies. The Government's massive purchase of fuel inefficient cars, since agencies have very little incentive to save on gas costs, has a surprisingly discretionary effect on the production decisions of American Car Makers. We've all seen police drive around in SUVs.

Instead of saddling American consumers with extra costs, why don't we mandate that all agencies that receive money from Congress must not use cars with a MPG below 35? This includes charities, police departments, the Military, and even foreign governments.

35mpg isn't great...

[Gordonjcp]

... but it's a start. If my car (big old 80s thing) was getting through that much fuel I'd check that it wasn't on fire.

Except that this was left out of the Senate Bill

[Chmcginn]

And I'm not really thrilled with the other provisions of the bill, namely requiring 15% of every utility's power from every state to come from non-renewable sources.

I'm going to assume the 'non-' was a typo... but since that whole section of the bill was dropped from the Senate version anyway, it's a moot point. I will agree, though, that passenger-sized vehicles owned by the government should adhere to the same standards as passenger-sized vehicles sold to individuals. There's no reason for anything from a police car to an government-owned sedan to be more of a gas hog than a new Mustang. (Since military vehicles are usually a bit larger, I can see them going by the standards for commercial vehicles, such as buses and tractor-trailers.)

BS threats by auto industry

[edwardpickman]

There were cars getting better than that average in the late 70s and all that took was the threat of people refusing to buy gas guzzlers because of the oil shortage. The problem is they just spent 15 years convincing people they needed to drive tanks and now they have to figure out either how to make the tanks get good gas mileage or convince people they no longer need SUVs. With hybrids I'm sure they can reach those standards. The real problem is trying to figure out what the mileage is on a rechargeable hybrid. They'll either try to overstate the mileage to offset the gas sucking giants or they won't want to produce them unless they get to take additional credit for the extra mileage potential. I can't see they not trying to use it as a barginning chip. Unless it directly benifits profits or numbers of cars sold the auto industry has a history of resisting change.

destroy the US automakers ?

[savuporo]

I dont think US automakers like Tesla Motors or Phoenix Motorcars will cry much about this. They are aiming for complete zero emissions vehicles anyway.
Look, the crying from automakers is silly, like the DaimlerChrysler announcement that "we cant make it". Well, tough luck. Innovate or die. Its a market and competition, you dont have any birthright to sit there and dictate things.
Auto industry is long overdue for some serious shakeup, and the ones that get with the future sooner will likely survive.

Confusing units...

[bdraschk]

At least for me as a German reader, i had to read TFA to get an idea what "mpg" means in the first place, than had to use google and xcalc to compute the unit we use to measure how much cars spend. 35 mpg is about 6.7l/100km, which does sound pretty good to me.

But still do not know under which circumstances these 6.7l shall be attained. City traffic, highway, or total mix? I have trouble keeping my moderately motorized car on 7l/100km in city traffic, it can do much better on the autobahn (if i don't push it too hard).

Re:It's about damn time

[MadUndergrad]

The Wankel is old news. http://www.starrotor.com/

They get around the seal issue by not having one. By making the rotors with tight tolerances, and by using the Brayton cycle rather than the Otto cycle, thus allowing lower compression ratios, they reduce leakage to a negligible level with no seals to deal with. I've got my eye on this company for the next few years. As for nutating engines, the seal issue probably will get the best of them, but it's still a neat concept that may see limited use.

Re:Why aren't they doing this /anyway/?

[vidarh]

People in Norway manage fine with small cars. People in the Northern parts of Russia manage fine with small cars. Snow really is no excuse for large cars unless you are actually going to drive off road or your local government can't do their job properly and keep the roads clear.

Mazda 626 1988 running 45% ethanol no problems

[superswede]

"For consumers, the legislation will mean that over the next dozen years auto companies will likely build [...] vehicles that can run on 85 percent ethanol."

Bah, in Sweden I've got a Mazda 626 from 1988 and that run perfectly well on a mix of 50% gas (==95% petrol and 5% ethanol) and 50% "E85" (==85% ethanol and 15% petrol), that is, effectively 55% petrol and 45% ethanol.

In Sweden, almost all gas already got 5% ethanol mixed in, and I think old as well as new cars handles that perfectly well. So, next *dozen* years, sounds like a really slow progress in order to reach a 15% mix in.

Re:Why aren't they doing this /anyway/?

[fprintf]

Your SUV argument is bullshit. Really. I live in the Northeast, and have in various states around here for the 25+ years I have been driving. *Even* if you live in Vermont, NH, Maine or upstate NY there is very little need for an SUV. There is maybe once per year, if that, that an Audi Quattro, Subaru AWD or anything else could not navigate with ease. All have ground clearance of 6+ inches, and you'd really need a dumping of 8+ inches *and* very poor planning in order not to make it home. In fact, most of these cars handle the snow better than SUVs due to their lighter weight and lower center of gravity. Take a look around hill country and you will see people managing quite well with used AWD cars - particularly the Subarus as they are cheap and seem to last forever.

I have lived in the lower Northeast, Mass and CT, for a long time now, where the snow levels are lower than hill country. I used to drive a Miata for 7 years and never, ever got stuck. Now I drive a Mini Cooper S and have yet to get stuck. I will say that for the first time, this year, I installed some snow tires I was given (versus the previous 15+ winters without them) and am quite happy with the results. As long as the difference in height between the ruts and the snow level doesn't reach 6 inches I can navigate just fine - if it does get that high, then the front airdam will act like a snowplow. But this has not happened locally for many years, and yet still the suburban environment here is packed with SUVs. My opinion is that the snow argument is not a rational one, but has been a very strong part of the sales pitch for these vehicles nonetheless.

So I think we will survive just fine without the SUVs. As for the water crossings in the midwest and southeast, I'd bet that is potentially part of 1/1,000,000 people's lives. Most people I know there are smart enough not to try to ford a stream that has flooded the road as the current can quickly surprise and take vehicle and/or life with it.

35mpg...is that all?

[norite]

My diesel has been getting around (US) 50mpg. Since I adapted it to run on vegetable oil, I've started doing some experiments using acetone. The results so far seem interesting. I appear to be getting better mileage with vegetable oil. I've just been trying sunflower oil, both with acetone and without acetone, (1.5ml per liter of fuel) and my mileage went up to (US) 60mpg. With corn oil, it was around (US) 55mpg...

35mpg....come on!

Still quite lax

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

European regulation requires car manufacturers to average 100 kilometers on 5 liters, which is roughly 47 mpg. This is in 2012, not 2020!

Stop Blaming Detroit!

[Detritus]

Stop blaming Detroit for the poor choices of you and your neighbors. There is no conspiracy to prevent people from buying efficient cars. They just don't sell that well in America. I can walk out into any parking lot and see large numbers of SUVs and trucks owned by people who will never use them for their intended purpose. For many of them, it's a fashion statement. People like driving over-powered land yachts.

If we were really serious about cutting gasoline consumption, we would take a serious look at land use and zoning, so that people didn't have to drive such long distances to get to work or shop.

Re:Why aren't they doing this /anyway/?

[Pharmboy]

They already make cars that get this kind of mileage. I drive a 1998 Cadillac Deville that gets 31 MPG on the highway on the interstate, mainly at 70-75MPH. I drive 110 miles per day to and from work. It is a 4.6L FWD V8 that has 275HP and will flat out 'shit and git'. I bought it used because I wanted something comfy to drive 2 hours each day in. I also wanted good gas mileage, and this beats the average import.

If I can get 31MPG in a car with heated, leather seats and tons of room for 6 people, and enough power to tow a boat, I'm pretty sure they can make a mid sized car with a V6, plenty of power and comfort, that can squeeze out an extra 4 miles per gallon. What they fear is that people won't want them.

The recent sales of SUV's boil down to two factors: Soccer moms wanting to feel safe, soccer dads wanting more horsepower. Even the Hummer is EXCLUDED from the CAFE standards because its GVWR is "too high", same as the 2500HD Chevy truck I also own (this also means excluded from pollution testing, which is stupid). I couldn't get published ratings for my 2500HD for gas mileage anywhere: they don't have to publish it and they won't, and it doesn't count toward CAFE standards either since it is a "work truck". (it gets 13MPG, no matter how I drive it or where, 6.0L, etc.)

All you have to do is LOOK at what Detroit is putting out to see they are chicken shit and not willing to take any risks, be it in design or for mileage. They have been so far behind the pack for so many years, and I don't expect them to catch up anytime soon. Fortunately for them, they are good at importing Japanese technology (1980s Nova was really a Toyota) or just ripping it off eventually. Detroit has not made it easy to "buy American" over the years, that is for damn sure.

Why the US uses MPG and not L/100km

[BennyB2k4]

If a company sells one pure electric car, which get infinite miles per gallon, the fleet average will be infinite miles per gallon!

one electric car at 0L/100km doesn't do anything to the average if it's a big fleet.

Re:It's about damn time

[WhiteWolf666]

Actually, in terms of build quality, the latest American cars are quite good.

Consumer Reports has put Buick above Lexus in terms of reliability, and a few other GM brands are up there, too.

American cars developed a really bad reputation in the 90s, and its taken forever to turn it around. On the other hand, I don't understand the fascination people have with European cars. German cars, in particular, really suck these days.

A Mercedes, or a BMW, is really a piece of crap, poor build quality, design flaws, and serious maintenance issues. I know, I've seen dozens of them fall apart.

Buy Japanese, or American; but the European garbage isn't worth the exorbatant prices right now.

Re:It's about damn time

[arivanov]

German cars, in particular, really suck these days.

Spot on. Every single piece of German equipment I have bought in the last 8 years has arrived with a factory defect and/or broke down within the next year after the warranty expired. For example the German washing machine was marked with a crayon on the side that it is defective and needs to be returned to the factory line and it was shipped none the less. Cars are the same. I used to have an Astra and it was the same story. German cars (and especially the ones built in Germany) suck. There is a reason why Germans are at the bottom of the reliability league tables (with only the large French cars ahead of them). The underlying cause is the German workforce (same as with French). When your workforce has grown slacking on the job and knowing that the union will not allow it to be fired no matter what, you get a "quality" product.

As far as the fascination especially with the German cars it dates from the days when the German cars were not actually German. In the days when their build quality was stellar and ahead even of the Japanese they were built by Turkish gastarbeighters. In those days (late 60-es and 70-es), German build quality was unrivaled. Guess why - non-unionised workforce working its arse off and doing everything it can not to make a single mistake in order not to get fired.

Back to German cars and the subject of the article. It is not just german manufacturing that sucks worse and worse. German engineering has joined it. The Germans are the only country in the world where the average fuel consumption of new cars has actually increased over the last 10 years. In fact year on year a German car is on the average less fuel efficient than the last year model: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7095299.stm. Even the US car industry does better.

Re:Gas is too cheap!

[mrchaotica]

But for most families it's still less than their cable bill.

Holy shit! How much do these people pay for cable?!

I'm single and I drive an economy car. Up until last month, I'd been doing a typical Atlanta commute (Gwinnett County to downtown via I-85; about 30 miles or 45 minutes -- yes, this is typical for Atlanta). I was spending at least $150/month for gas alone, which is larger than any sane cable bill by itself. An actual family, with at least one member doing about the same commute but in a 15mpg SUV, must spend at least $250/month around here.

Re:Here is what is going to happen

[cayenne8]

Yeah, but, mileage, pollution (and insurance) is what killed 'fun' cars in the early 70's too.

*Sigh*.

Guess it is time to buy another Corvette in the near future...while they still MAKE a fun, high powered sports car.

Why doesn't the govt. try a different route, rather than dictating what car companies have to do....why not give them tax breaks and incentive, to build more efficient and alternative fuel cars? Then, let the market sort things out.

I mean, with gas prices now....people, at least the poorer ones, are gonna start shedding those SUV's pretty soon anyway. This is another area we don't need the govt. involved in. By the way, what constitutional power enumerates the govt. regulating private businesses like this? I forget.....

Bitch and Moan, Then, Bitch and Moan

[sherriw]

Let me get this straight. For the last 10 or more years, the big three have been lobbying and fighting tooth and nail to block tougher emission standards, begging for government handouts (out of taxpayer pockets) to help them 'compete' with foreign car makers, they've stuck their collective heads in the sand while Toyota et al. innovate cars that consumers want, streamlined manufacturing processes and cleaner running and hybrid cars. Basically ignored the OBVIOUS path that the auto industry has been on, and as a result they are now far behind.

Then, surprise, surprise, emission standards are tightened (really, who didn't see this coming??) and they are now bitching and moaning to the government that, no shit, they are behind the foreign car makers?

I live in one of the most automotive-dependent cities in North America, and I could see the obvious signs of what steps that GM, Chrysler and Ford and their unions should have been taking all along to stay competitive. They refused to do so, or if they did a bit it was half hearted at best.

If you fail to stay ahead of your industry. If you watch your competition take a direction that consumers are jumping all over and you refuse to take it seriously, or think you can lobby the problem away, then I'm sorry, you deserve to lose market share. Even though my own home town would take, and is taking a serious knocking as the domestic car makers bleed profits... I'm secretly praying they either shut-up and get to work, or go out of business completely. These dinosaurs are keeping us behind.