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Microsoft Deprecating Some OOXML Functionality

christian.einfeldt writes "According to open standards advocate Russell Ossendryver, Microsoft will be deprecating certain functionality in its Microsoft Office Open XML specification. Ossendryver says the move is an attempt to quiet critics of the specification in the run up to the crucial February ISO vote. The Microsoft-led industry standards group formally offering OOXML confirms in a 21 December 2007 announcement that issues related to the 'leap year bug', VML, compatibility settings such as 'AutoSpaceLikeWord95' and others will be 'extracted from the main specification and relocated to an independent annex in DIS 29500 for deprecated functionality.'"

14 of 138 comments (clear)

  1. deprecated but widely used by MS software? by mr_mischief · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If MS deprecates it but makes support for the deprecated features the default option in their software, they'll still be contributing to people spewing incompatible files that don't render correctly in software following the standards. It'd be better to just rip out the parts that shouldn't be there and resubmit the standard. Having to recognize and either support or report lack of support for a maze of twisty little semi-standard features for sake of backwards compatibility is not going to help the situation much,

    1. Re:deprecated but widely used by MS software? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you actually believe windows developers actually want to touch OO?
      Being a Windows developer (I also develop on other platforms, but this is irrelevant) I can tell you that I don't want to touch OOo or Microsoft Office. If I want to generate a document, I want the ability to do it myself if need be and so on. So far, OOXML is not really the solution I've been lucking for. The documentation is appalling, what is considered a very simple document and 'correct' in the specification does not work with Microsoft Office. It's annoying.

      But in the end it makes development easier.
      Honestly, generating odt, ods documents is easier.

      Microsoft takes care of developers.
      I don't agree. The MSDN is one huge example. It's great that it has such a vast knowledge base. Unfortunately a third of the documentation contains the wrong behavior and possibly the worst workarounds I have ever seen for a problem with lots of empty promises to fix issues in the future that haven't been fixed. That is how well Microsoft takes care of the developers.

      Developers are the ones who make this who software word turn around.
      I disagree. Microsoft has been buying out software companies that are a threat, launching extremely anti-competitive campaigns against 3rd party software developers that rival their own products and so on. Microsoft are the ones making the software world go round because they are manipulating everything, not the developers or the consumers.

      It's about documentation, support and tools.And face it...that is a field where microsoft has no competition.
      Have you even seen Microsoft's support? Staying on the telephone for hours on corporate support to report a serious bug, only to get a idiot who doesn't seem to even grasp Microsoft's own products (and this has been on every occasion I have tried to do anything with the enterprise support). Microsoft does not even provide direct support options to consumers, never mind small-time developers.

      Let's see what the Linux side does.

      Do they have corporate support? Yes.
      Does Microsoft? Yes.
      Do they have 24/7 corporate call centers and fast pick up rates? Yes.
      Microsoft does not have 24/7 corporate call centers.
      Do they have people who know what the hell they're talking about on the otherside? Yes -- I have even got a kernel developer at one point when it came to a serious issue.
      Does Microsoft? Well, in my experience - never managed to talk to anyone who seemed to actually know.
      Does the regular consumer get support? Yes - obviously paid support is better but there are a lot of free alternatives that appear to be just as good (despite the people who perceive Linux support is 'rtfm').
      Does Microsoft? There is a community that provides support on issues, but there is no paid support options offered at all.

      Googling up for solutions and looking them up in forums(do i hear linux users trying to say smth?) is not acceptable.
      Try researching the subject a little before opening your mouth next time.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    2. Re:deprecated but widely used by MS software? by BlueParrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      despite the people who perceive Linux support is 'rtfm


      Well, to be fair, Linux man pages is actually useful support, as compared to: "Did you remember to turn on your printer? Did this help? If not, contact your system manager..."
  2. Smoke and Mirrors by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The result of Microsoft's manipulation should be ISO banning MSOOXML from participating in the standards process.

    It's abundantly clear now that the format is critically flawed and cannot be implemented by anyone, not even the Office team themselves.

    ECMA 376 is a bomb disguised as a standard. It redefines functions and components just to retain ties to the undocumented legacy formats. Therefore a number of things that should be fixed by now, thanks to better engineering, and existing ISO standards, are left not only unfixed, but even perpetuated by ECMA376. The fact that Microsoft continues to push this fake "standard" shows how little they care about their customers and how much their business is predicated on lockin.
    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    1. Re:Smoke and Mirrors by ozmanjusri · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It is no more a "fake" standard than any other standard.

      You may not see a pattern here. I suspect may others will.

      • Maybe we could define the APIs so that they work well with NT and not the others even if they are open. Or maybe we could patent something related to this. - William Henry Gates III on ACPI, 1999
      • Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language. - Prashant Sridharan, MS Visual J++ Product Manager, 1997
      • The first obligation that the ICPs undertook was to distribute Internet Explorer and no "Other Browser" in connection with any custom Web browsing software or CD-ROM content that they might offer - US District Court of Columbia on proprietary HTML extensions, 1999
      • OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new ones, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market. - Vinod Vallopillil, ex-MS Engineer, 1999
      • The first type of conduct found to constitute an abuse consisted in Microsoft's refusal to supply its competitors with interoperability information and to authorize them to use that information to develop and distribute products competing with its own products - EC First Instance Court, 2007
      • We [Microsoft] are OASIS members but since we didn't have an interest in ODF we didn't participate in its development. - Brian Jones , MS Office Program Manager, 2007
      This isn't a battle between OOXML and ISO. It is a battle between having document standards and not having them.

      Microsoft is trying to wreck the concept of standards and interoperability to a point where those concepts are useless.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  3. Deprecated means forever by filbranden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In another move to spread more FUD, now they're trying to hide the UGLY part of the specification. But, what use is hiding it? They claim the deprecated features will be used only for the migration of old binary formats, and that they should not be used by new documents... But considering that the whole point of this document format standardization effort is to be able to open any document in 20 or 30 years time, and if the old binary format documents will be converted using deprecated features, that just means that any software implementing the standard will have to support the deprecated features anyway...

    Although they keep manipulating, manipulating, and manipulating more, I still think their format stinks, they're only using it to spread FUD over other formats, and I really hope they can't pull this stunt.

    1. Re:Deprecated means forever by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They claim the deprecated features will be used only for the migration of old binary formats, and that they should not be used by new documents...

      Someone help me out here, for real. I think I'm missing something. What is the point of those ridiculous "backward compatibility" tags? Word's never been good enough for pixel-perfect rendering. For example, printing the same document on different printers hasn't ever been likely to give the same output. So, what on earth is the justification for maintaining a "renderLikeWord95" tag when that was never well-defined to begin with?

      If the <foo> attribute originally meant "centered, bold, double-spaced", then just make the importer translate it to something like "<textblock align="center" weight="bold" height="200%"> text goes here </textblock>". Forget bug compatibility. That's a dying horse and needs killed now before we end up with something like the loose HTML parsing nightmare that browser designed are stuck with. Who cares how the document originally displayed on the original machine? MS never did before today.

      Don't hide those tags - delete them. There is no rational explanation other than lock-in for having them, and as long as they're around, the IT world will know this is a joke.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  4. This is an unsurprising move by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just like with Vista, they just drop features until it's "releasable."

    Here's the obvious problem:

    They will claim a feature is deprecated, or not part of the spec, but their software will continue using it. Meanwhile, other programs that try to read and write OOXML format following the "official" spec, will result in the documents created or edited by other programs not being fully compatible with MS Word. This will be seen by the user community as a deficiency in the alternative software and no as a problem with Microsoft's software.

    We have seen this before and we continue to see it. People think that because a web site works with MSIE and doesn't work with Firefox that there's a problem with Firefox... Microsoft continues to damage the competition in this way and will persist in the same. I hope that the voters in the ISO decisions are aware of this potential problem.

  5. Sneaky? by PhotoGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This seems sneaky to me. Remove controvesial stuff from the standard, but put it in an Annex, that MS will implement and people will rely upon left and right, so it will become a de-facto microsoft embrace-and-extend standard.

    I really try to fight the kneejerk anti-microsoft sentiment around here, but lordy, all of their moves seem so calculated and evil. It's not just single actions, it's a pattern of actions. Humans are great at recognizing patterns. And even with good moves and bad moves, one can generally see a positive attitude behind Google, for example (some may disagree, but I think the general consensus is that they're not dastardly.) But with MS, every move seems like a piece of a puzzle showing a nasty, calculated, aggressive, anti-competitive entity. Everything seems consistent with that. The way the US rolled over on everything for political reasons is shameful. Hopefully the EU will right some of those wrongs, at least in part of the world.

    I guess to try and find the bright side, one could say "at least it's documented" (without an exorbitant fee and crazy restrictions, like SMB et al.)

    --
    Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    1. Re:Sneaky? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Humans are great at recognizing patterns.

      Whether or not the pattern so recognized actually exists.
  6. Re:How about a better description? by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Deprecate" is also technology jargon that means "to mark as obsolete." How you could be a Slashdot reader and not be familiar with that usage, I cannot understand.

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  7. Re:The big problem with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I won't join your site, but I have a problem with the Introduction and its restatement later in the Goals section. Feel free to quote, copy, take credit for, or in any other way use, disuse, or fail to use, the following as it is now in the public domain.

    Introduction
    The goal is to enable the implementation of the Office Open XML formats by the widest set of tools and
    platforms, fostering interoperability across office productivity applications and line-of-business systems, as well
    as to support and strengthen document archival and preservation, all in a way that is fully compatible with the
    large existing investments in Microsoft Office documents.

    The stated goal is to create a standard compatible with a single vendor's single product. I'd say that alone disqualifies it as a standard. Even if they change the wording, they would have to explain why they included this verbiage in the first place. Note the rewording under the Goal:

    2.1 Goal
    The goal of this clause is to define conformance, and to provide interoperability guidelines in a way that fosters
    broad and innovative use of the Office Open XML file format, while maximizing interoperability and preserving
    investment in existing files and applications (4). By meeting this goal, this Standard benefits the following
    audiences:

    • Developers that design, implement, or maintain Office Open XML applications.
    • Developers that interact programmatically with Office Open XML applications.
    • Governmental or commercial entities that procure Office Open XML applications.
    • Testing organizations that verify conformance of specific Office Open XML applications to this
      Standard. (Note that this Standard does not include a test suite.)
    • Educators and authors who teach about Office Open XML applications.

    Two things. The goal mentioned in the introduction is reworded from "existing investments in Microsoft Office documents" to "existing files and applications", which sounds more interoperable but it really isn't. Also, by meeting this goal, this standard benefits.... drumroll... people who are forced to use Open XML. This goal could be achieved simply by using the standard proposal as documentation of the file format, and forgo the whole OOXML standard because its stated goal has already been achieved.

    To summarize: unless there are other unstated (hidden) goals, which most likely would benefit Microsoft, there is no outside benefit to having this be a standard. If there are other, more beneficial goals, they should be discovered and listed.

    If the goal truly is to "support and strengthen document archival and preservation", it would make more sense not to just deprecate AutoSpaceLikeWord95 or the other black box definitions, but to actually create definitions which specify the exact behavior, as has been noted elsewhere. Otherwise the standard does not meet its own stated goal. And an added benefit would be to wrap this spacing definition in some sort of grouping to show that these measurements and behaviors are all one entity - in other words, if you remove or ignore this spacing information, you should do it as a group, not just ignoring one part of it because your application does not implement that section. There is simply no way to "support and strengthen document archival and preservation" by leaving such definitions undefined. That is exactly the opposite of its stated goal.

    One other part that bothers me is "in a way that fosters broad and innovative use of the Office Open XML file format". Not for convenience or clarity, but to make more people use the Microsoft format. In other words lock-in, or the transition between embrace and extend.

    The only reason that ODF cannot be a direct replacement for OOXML, and why ODF cannot serve to achieve the stated goals for OOXML, is that ODF does not support some of the features of Of

  8. Tax data standards by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No one is holding a gun to your head to use any standard. If you don't use the government's pet standard to file tax documents, then the local counterpart of the Internal Revenue Service will hold a gun to your head.
  9. Re:Now the waiting game... by wtansill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Please point out my obvious troll! I made a serious point. A lot of people on Slashdot only hate the idea of OOXML because Microsoft wrote it. Now, are you going to discuss it or hide behind the moderation system?
    No, we hate it because:
    1. It is not meant as a specification to be implemented openly by others -- it was only introduced to quash a competing, already ratified standard so as to maintain Microsoft's Office Monopoly.
    2. It is not an open standard -- it does not promise to be patent unencumbered.
    3. As provided, it cannot be implemented by anyone other than MicroSoft, since it relies on other specifications that are not open, and that are unavailable to other implementers.
    4. That MicroSoft has made some things "deprecated" is a smokescreen. Many things in, say, Java, or C are "deprecated". That does not relieve a developer of the need to implement those features anyway in order to maintain backward compatibility with older documents/programs.

    Aside form the above and a few other things, it's a great standard... </sarcasm>
    Now -- would you care to tell us who you are and who you actually work for "Anonymous"?
    --
    The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster