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Long Live Closed-Source Software?

EvilRyry writes "In an article for Discover Magazine, Jaron Lanier writes about his belief that open source produces nothing interesting because of a hide-bound mentality. 'Open wisdom-of-crowds software movements have become influential, but they haven't promoted the kind of radical creativity I love most in computer science. If anything, they've been hindrances. Some of the youngest, brightest minds have been trapped in a 1970s intellectual framework because they are hypnotized into accepting old software designs as if they were facts of nature. Linux is a superbly polished copy of an antique, shinier than the original, perhaps, but still defined by it.'"

23 of 676 comments (clear)

  1. bullshit by Uksi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just look at Java opensource software. Eclipse, Spring and Hibernate are some of the most innovative opensource projects, massively used by the biggest corporate giants to boot.

  2. Sure, right, yeah... by palegray.net · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Open wisdom-of-crowds software movements have become influential, but they haven't promoted the kind of radical creativity I love most in computer science. Everybody knows there's not a shred of original code or thought on such sites as SourceForge. Nobody ever visits sites like Apple's development center. After all, they despise open source developers, right? And let's just completely write off sites like Open Source Alternatives, because they've never listed any software that showed promise or included innovative new features. Microsoft and companies like them are the only true source of innovation on this planet, and always will be.

    Yes, I'm keenly aware I'm preaching to the choir. This article is the most flame-baiting piece I've seen on the front page in a long, long time. I have to admit, it'll be good for driving traffic, and unfortunately the author is probably going to make a bunch of money on it. He won't get my clicks, though... I flatly refuse to read TFA.

    1. Re:Sure, right, yeah... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Everybody knows there's not a shred of original code or thought on such sites as SourceForge.

      And what is the innovative code?

      And let's just completely write off sites like Open Source Alternatives, because they've never listed any software that showed promise or included innovative new features.

      And again, WHAT IS IT? Sure, there is a LOT of code out there. But show me the OSS software out there that screams, "Wow! That's unbelievably clever!" And sure, there's some *popular* OSS software, but as I pointed out in another post, popular does not mean innovative.

      So far, I haven't seen any posts with a long list of examples of OSS innovation. Just screaming that there "just has" to be a lot of innovation... look at all the lines of code!

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    2. Re:Sure, right, yeah... by dangitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right, you only list a handful. Only two of them are actual desktop productivity software, and only one is widely used. The rest are back-end stuff, and a protocol. The bittorent applications that people actualy use are often closed-source. I'm not sure by what definition bittorrent itself is an "application."

      Firefox is the only one that is widely seen by end users. Poen Office is not widely used. Or perhaps your fingers are too tired to type out the names of the FOSS applications that are used as much as Microsoft Office, iTunes, Adobe Photoshop and Acrobat by the average user?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  3. The Author is a Fucktard by Aardpig · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why did the adored iPhone come out of what many regard as the most closed, tyrannically managed software-development shop on Earth?

    What, the same closed, tyrannically managed software-development shop that built a complete, adored operating system around BSD?

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    1. Re:The Author is a Fucktard by bmartin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      FOSS doesn't spur creativity because FOSS isn't inherently creative. HUMAN BEINGS ARE CREATIVE. software is written by people. Knowledge-sharing is natural. Being secretive about knowledge implies that you want leverage over others.

      FTA: "So Richard hatched a plan. [...] He would instigate a free version of an ascendant, if rather dull, program: the Unix operating system. That simple act would blast apart the idea that lawyers and companies could control software culture. Eventually a kid named Linus Torvalds followed in Richard's footsteps and did something related [...]. His effort yielded Linux, the basis for a vastly expanded open-software movement."

      I have a lot of questions about this quote: What is dull about Unix? Is the author so ignorant that he really believe Linus was following in Stallman's footsteps, rather than challenging Andrew Tanenbaum's MINIX microkernel design? There are some pretty fundamental differences between the philosophies of Stallman and Torvalds in regards to FOSS, the GPL, etc. For example, the Hurd kernel is (or will be) a microkernel, and Linus is keeping Linux under the GPL v2. Almost all modern operating systems are modeled after Unix... GNU/Linux, OS X, AIX, HP UX, MINIX, etc. Why reinvent the wheel?

      The author has a lot to his credit; he's a very influential person, coined the term "virtual reality", and has taught at several Ivy League colleges. However, this article makes unsound claims and smells of anger and dejection. It's not worth sending him an email or flaming him, as he encouraged in the article. Let him vent. He's allowed to find FOSS boring. Software like Blender, Firefox, MythTV and Python will hold my attention for a very long time.

      The article seems to be lacking in insight. For example, here's a quote attributed to him (from wikipedia.org):
      "If we start to believe that the Internet itself is an entity that has something to say, we're devaluing those people [creating the content] and making ourselves into idiots."

      This is analogous to our belief that books have something to say, which devalues the people who wrote them and make us into idiots. There's nothing dehumanizing about reading what others have written. It's simply a form of communication. /. didn't write this comment; a person did. The fact that you obtained the information from my comment by reading this site doesn't devalue me or make you an idiot.

      --
      "You could almost look at defense of Microsoft as a form of the Stockholm syndrome." -neapolitan
  4. NIH syndrome by Jherico · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a retarded sentiment. I'm a developer and I understand the call of the wild, the desire to reimplement everything from the ground up using 'new technology' but this really falls into the trap of thinking that new is automatically better. The older software is, the more mature it is and the fewer bugs it has. Sure, if there's new hardware to take advantage of or some new radical shift in methodology then there might be a reason to go back to the drawing board, but 9 times out of 10 if you're implementing something in closed source, you're duplicating something that's already available in open source and more mature to boot. My own company is having a difficult moving away from an entrenched custom build system, and an entrenched web based page navigation framework and UI framework and data access layer that is all homegrown and closed source and we're spending more time doing that than we would have if we'd just gone with Struts or Spring or Hibernate in the beginning. Not only does closed source end up making poor copies of open source functionality half the time, but one of the number one reasons to use open source is that you can hire people off the street who have extensive experience in whatever you're using. Try doing that with closed source technology.

    --

    Jherico

    What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"

  5. One word rebuttel to TFA by rs79 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apache.

    --
    Need Mercedes parts ?
    1. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But "UNIX" doesn't rebut TFA, it reinforces it! The article's whole point is that OSS has done little besides copy the work of closed-source innovators, with GNU/Linux copying Unix being the chief example!

      It's because trying to lead open-source developers is like herding cats. Unless you're holding their can of food, they won't go where you want. And if you can't make all of them focus on the single project you want accomplished, you don't get anything done without a huge mass of so many people that everyone can do what they please and you'll still have enough people going your way. But the only way to get that size a mass of volunteers is to work on a "sure thing" project with an established design that moves towards a goal everyone can already see -- to copy an established product.

      For example, wasn't the OpenMoko team supposed to have released a user-ready package of hardware and software by now?

    2. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by AJWM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Best word

      wheel

      There are certain ideas that are hard to improve upon beyond minor cosmetic and detail changes. There are a lot of things one can do to improve wheels -- materials, suspension, etc -- but changing the fundamental shape isn't one of them.

      (And yes, one can invent radically new concepts for transportation -- e.g. wings -- but they don't solve the fundamental problems that wheels solve.)

      Unix/linux, word processors, spreadsheets, etc solve certain fundamental problems. You want radically different software, look in radically different problem areas (as some other posters have noted).

      There are certain shapes of non-round rollers that work fine, and even lumpy wheels work, but after continued use they'll both wear themselves to a circular wheel shape. Twenty years ago Henry Spencer's sig said "Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly", and Microsoft (among others) has been proving him right.

      --
      -- Alastair
    3. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is precisely why there are companies who gladly hold the food by paying salaries to developers of open source software, so you can lead them where you want them to go. IBM, Redhat, Sun, etc. all make an excellent living guiding open source software where their business needs it to go. Sure, sure. But that doesn't encourage any actual innovation in software, it encourages adding another crock onto a heap of old hacks built by badly implementing 30-year-old standards, all of which runs just well enough to keep a small IT department employed (who, coincidentally, keep choosing to run this stuff).

      I would actually hand the prize for OSS development to Ubuntu Linux made by Canonical. They got around the "good, cheap, fast: choose two" dichotomy by using philanthropic funds, and the result is a system that manages to almost not betray its decades-old foundations. DISCLAIMER: I am an OS X user, though I can fully understand how Apple obviously takes the path of "good and fast" by throwing "cheap" out the window.

      Open source software greatly lowers the barrier to entry into the market which, imho, increases innovation in how business is done. Very probably, in fact, almost definitely. But TFA spoke of innovation in software and in computer science, and all the copying (and then the subsequent touting of a copy of a 30-year-old system as an "alternative" OS) hinders innovation in software engineering and computer science. Whether the trade-off is fair, I leave up to you. I think we should at least be fostering real innovation in academic CS and hobby programming, even if the market won't support it in business.

      I mean seriuosly, I don't see closed source software making amazing technical breakthroughs either. Plan 9 from Bell Labs. The iPhone's multi-touch interface. Bluetooth. The Nintendo and Sega games that actually make good use of the Wiimote. VMWare Fusion and Parallels. Portal.

      I believe what the original author is seeing is the waning of the industrial revolution in which we're seeing an extensive slow down in technological wonders. Sure computers are getting smaller and with slightly different/better interfaces, but going from steam engines to cell phones was a VERY rapid ramp up... we just don't see that kind of thing anymore. Since I have a huge hulking Dell desktop sitting a meter to my left that was, in 2001, only two steps down from the bleeding edge, and since I'm typing this post on a Macbook Pro (made in 2007) that outstrips that Dell in every possible way due to Moore's Law and the increasing capacity of hard drives while providing several capabilities, like the iSight camera and motion sensors, that weren't even available (at least not cheaply) in 2001, I'd have to say technological development is not slowing down. Maybe it has stopped accelerating, but everyone knows that exponential growth can't continue forever.

      I'd say we've reached the point where people problems hold as back more than actual technological problems. If OpenMoko got their shit together (I really wanted one, so now I love to use them as an example of a failed project.), we could all be running mobile phones with multi-touch interfaces, cheap service plans, WiFi internet access, and best of all, software at least open enough to let us program the device. Such a device would, if sold cheaply enough, put established mobile phone and the less savvy mobile video gaming companies out of business, and we have the technology to produce it. It's just the people causing problems.
    4. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by Michael_gr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry, but I think you're being close-minded. If we take operating system for example, ther's one big glaringly obvious idea that has been much talked about but never fully implemented system-wide - the idea of a virtual file system that would replace the file/folder metaphor with something resembling the filing system of email clients, with virtual folders, tags, etc. Object in a computer - single emails, files, whatever - should act the same. Why can't I file my pictures of cousin Larry along with my emails from and to cousin Larry in the same place? The entire desktop metaphor should also be ditched in favor of something else and serious improvements are required in the area of error recovery - for example, why won't the OS auto-save each document I'm working on every 1-5 minutes so I can recover from mistakenly overwriting a file or saving it when I intended to discard changes? Why can't they put an undo button on the desktop and file manager? Microsoft tried to do some of it with WinFS and failed. OSX now has "time machine" to recover files but they could go further. There's this innovative Linux-based project, Symphony OS, but it suffers from lack of volunteers. Anyway the OS has a lot of places where it could improve and I bet other apps could too.

    5. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You just made the authors point for him, bravo.

      To say that UNIX is a "wheel" is garbage. UNIX (and Windows, which is based on similar concepts) is a moth eaten dirty piece of cloth. It's got giant problems. Look at malware for one. Look at how many jokes revolve around software crashes of some sort, for another.

      Before claiming that UNIX is like a wheel, go read up on modern operating system research. Seeing as you have a low opinion of Microsoft, might as well start there - try reading Singularity: Rethinking the software stack from Microsoft Research. They describe an operating system that, amongst other things, operates in a single address space without using hardware memory protection. There are no traditional processes, or syscalls. Instead the basic unit of software is a "Software Isolated Process" or SIP that is statically verified and compiled to machine code at install time. SIPs cannot be arbitrarily modified after installation. The whole thing is a single address space microkernel, except without the performance problems that scuppered previous microkernel attempts (because there are no context switches). A new security model based on verifiable type systems, state-machine based messaging and pre-declared intents allow for the construction of systems that are far more resistant to malware and unstable 3rd party extensions than today.

      And they only just got started.

    6. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Static linking isn't always bad. It's a balance. It would be an easier choice if a large percentage of library authors would learn how to version and manage a stable ABI. See, that's where the "Oh but you only need to replace one library if there's a security hole" argument starts to fall apart: most library authors couldn't keep the ABI stable if you held a gun to their head, so what actually happens is that existing software doesn't use the new library because the version has changed. You may as well be static linking in these cases.

      It would also be easier if software authors got a grip and stopped creating huge and unwieldy dependency trees for every little feature they add. Do we really need to ship a shared library for libquxblortsnort when it's all of 10k and used by exactly three projects in the known universe? Perhaps the author should just include the library with their source and link it statically.

    7. Re:One word rebuttel to TFA by AJWM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Look at malware for one. Look at how many jokes revolve around software crashes of some sort, for another.

      These are certainly problems that Windows has, but I don't see the relevance to modern unix-like operating systems. A modern alloy wheel with radial tires isn't the same as an old wooden chariot wheel, but they're both round; that's the essential "wheelness". Microsoft still hasn't figured out that an array of spokes works better if connected to a rim, they're too busy trying to figure out what color spokes work best.

      As for the work you describe, it bears about as much relation to real-world operating systems as anti-gravity research does to wheels. Yeah, sounds wonderful, it'd be nice if it worked, but there are some fundamental reasons why it won't.

      --
      -- Alastair
  6. New for news sake! by redelm · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I have a serious problem with observers criticising something for being old [un-novel] without being more specific about how "new" might be more advantageous.


    Such remarks basically insult practitioners for a lack of imagination without giving any substantiation. "Who know how much better it could be" is an impotent whine [whinge]. The commentator reveals themselves.

    1. Re:New for news sake! by jesterzog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have a serious problem with observers criticising something for being old [un-novel] without being more specific about how "new" might be more advantageous.

      He's just come back from a research conference, and his point is with how new ideas get developed in a research environment. Right or wrong, he's not saying that open source isn't great, more stable, or a good choice for businesses and individual users who want something stable, reliable and useful. What he has said is that from his own observations, OSS is not a great model for fostering creativity and encouraging people to innovate and try radical new ways of doing things.

      I'm not sure I fully agree with his view as he's stated because there are certainly some innovative ideas out there that have benefited a lot from OSS. He does have some merit with his arguments, though. Many of the popular OSS apps tend to be the ones that re-engineer ideas from closed source products.

  7. As if closed source isn't the same? by Hacksaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Attaching open source to these statements clouds the issue. Serious innovation isn't being supported anywhere, except perhaps in Universities. Even there it's hard because the interesting stuff is at the fringes. Businesses aren't interested in it because that won't make them money any time soon.

    OS creation isn't that interesting to most people, because once you know enough about it, you realize that while the Unix paradigm may not be perfect, getting to a current Unix's level of capability and stability would take decades.

    --

    All the technology in the world won't hide your lack of vision, talent, or understanding.

  8. What came before by leereyno · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Everything that has been created is build upon what came before.

    The Roman alphabet is far from ideal when it comes to reading and writing English, but we use it anyway. The spelling of many words in English is far from phonetic, but we continue to spell them that way just the same. The benefits of moving to a different set of symbols or a different spelling of some words are vastly outweighed by the costs involved.

    This is what is known as a path dependency. The grass may be greener on the other side, but the price to be paid for moving there is profoundly prohibitive.

    The same is true when it comes to computer science.

    A reinvented wheel may be better than what it replaces, but the cost of its development does not justify the effort, assuming you can get anyone to adopt it.

    It is easy to be creative when you don't have customers. When you don't have people who have come to use a particular product, or work within a particular paradigm, change is easy. Without these other people clogging up the way, it is easy to jump to a new way of doing things.

    If no one used the Roman alphabet, finding a new one would be a snap! If the spelling of words wasn't standardized then implementing new phonetic spellings for things like "knight" would be easy.

    Needless to say, this isn't going to happen.

    --
    Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
  9. Someone remind me by jjohnson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why I should pay any attention to Jaron Lanier.

    His name pops up every six months on Edge or ./ or somewhere else, because somehow he got certified as a smart guy (TM), but for the life of me I can't think of anything interesting that he's done or contributed that would deserve that appelation. All I've ever seen of him is a bunch of tech punditry that's either obvious or empty speculation (which is supposed to be significant because he's a smart guy (TM)).

    --
    Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  10. Clearly not acquainted with history by Arrogant-Bastard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every piece of significant Internet technology designed, developed and deployed over the past 25-30 years has been open-source. Offhand, I could list everything related to Usenet and NNTP, Apache, perl, gopher, python, PGP, BIND, Firefox, archie, AFS, NFS, X, LDAP, MIME, majordomo and mailman, ruby, RCS, CVS, subversion, BSD Unix, Linux, sendmail, postfix, courier, exim, P2P and associated tools, IRC, a bunch of ASF projects, etc., etc., etc. These are the building blocks of what most people perceive as the contemporary Internet -- and I'd say that creating that has involved some serious innovation.

    The biggest obstacle to innovation isn't open-source: it's software patents and the associated legal thicket that's being constructed to strangle innovation and thereby preserve the profits of the incumbents. I note with interest the the overwhelming majority of those engaging in this anti-innovation practice are vendors of closed-source software -- who are thereby admitting that they can't compete on merit, and so have to resort to unethical legal maneuvers to quash their competition. Oh, and the occasional open-source-is-bad propaganda piece.

  11. Re:Apache by Bill+Dimm · · Score: 5, Informative
    I wonder if he uploaded his shit article on an apache server.

    curl -i 'http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/long-live-closed-source-software/' | head -2

    HTTP/1.0 200 OK
    Server: Zope/(Zope 2.9.6-final, python 2.4.0, linux2) ZServer/1.1 Plone/2.5.2

  12. He does have a point by Animats · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Lanier invented gloves-and-goggles virtual reality. I tried his original VR system back in the 1980s (novel concept, terrible lag), and met him back then. Lanier tries too hard to be cool, but he has done real work.

    He does have a point about the Unix/Linux/open source ecosystem. Face it, Linux is pretty much like Unix, which dates from the 1970s. The Berkeley stuff from the 1980s (notably BIND and Sendmail) is still in use, buried under layers of cruft and still breaking. C programs are still crashing all the time. C++ didn't help much. X-Windows, which was never very good, has survived all its successors.

    I never dreamed when I started using UNIX in 1978 that thirty years later it would still be a major system. I thought the future of operating systems would be more like Multics, with rings of protection, on cheaper hardware. Or like Tandem, a transaction processing system where the mean time between system failures was measured in decades. Or like UCLA Locus, where distributed processing really worked. But no. It's just minor variations on UNIX, forever.

    That's what Lanier is pointing out. We have roughly the same problems at the bottom we had thirty years ago.