Rails Bigwig Rails on Rails Community

Zed Shaw, creator of the popular Mongrel HTTP daemon / library, has decided it was high time to tear into the Ruby/Rails community for many different complaints that he has been collecting over the last few years. "Rails is a Ghetto" is Shaw's self-proclaimed exit strategy from the Rails community. "This is that rant. It is part of my grand exit strategy from the Ruby and Rails community. I don't want to be a 'Ruby guy' anymore, and will probably start getting into more Python, Factor, and Lua in the coming months. I've got about three or four more projects in the works that will use all of those and not much Ruby planned. This rant is full of stories about companies and people who've either pissed in my cheerios somehow or screwed over friends. I can back all of them up from emails, IRC chat logs, or with witnesses. Nothing in here is a lie unless it's really obviously a lie through exaggeration, and there's a lot of my opinion as well."

Comments

Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums

[eldavojohn]

Before you spend the time reading this, let me point out that this isn't really technically oriented. I was hoping for some massive teardown of Ruby/Rails performance or load handling capabilities but ... yeah, didn't take away much from this other than this 'Zed' character can be quite abrasive.

Only a fucking tool bag piece of shit would:

* spend 10-20 minutes calling me names over IRC,
* not have the balls to say any of that to my face,
* say I'm a dick for wanting to use a different (established) publish/review model,
* and then demolish such an important file for a project,
* keeping everyone stumped and pissed for an hour,
* therefore proving me right.

This is exactly what makes Rails a ghetto. A bunch of half-trained former PHP morons who never bother to sit down and really learn the computer science they were too good to study in college. BTW, this is true about Kevin as he's an English major or something stupid (and it shows).

Hats off to you Kevin, you fucking prick. I'm enjoying my vacation too. Ok, this is the summation of his first point. He got into a verbal argument with someone on his team about how patches should be handled. Kevin thought people should be able to submit patches to his workspace while Zed vehemently did not.

People commonly have disagreements, work them out.

The fact that this (largely nontechnical) issue is his first point disheartens me and makes me wary of ever working with Zed no matter how brilliant he is. Perhaps this is another example of how non-personal communication (forums/IRC/IMs/e-mail) leads to heated debates over absolutely nothing. I would start to point out that Zed did call Kevin a 'mofo' first before Kevin called him a 'dick' but I would hesitate as name calling and the like is for children.

It's a wonder Zed gets anything done other than by himself to me.

As for his complaints about companies, I have to warn him that bad companies are everywhere ... just like bad people. What does any of this have to do with Ruby or Rails? Why are you so certain this is going to die? Because there are some idiots here and there trying to use it?

I hate to say this but after reading this first part of the rant, I think Zed is just as big (if not half) of the problem of the community being in shambles as any of his targets are.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums

[Anonymous Coward]

There were some nuggets of information hidden amongst the general whining though.

Things like having complained to the rails team about its thread safety and having the rails team stubbornly insist that it wasn't possible to make it thread-safe up until the point where someone went off and wrote a better version that was thread-safe. Things like that, if it's true, don't inspire a whole lot of confidence in RoR, regardless of how tactless the critique is.

Yes, he's got the kind of personality flaws that are, unfortunately, all too common in the tech industry. But I don't think that alone means we should automatically dismiss everything he says.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums

[misleb]

The fact that this (largely nontechnical) issue is his first point disheartens me and makes me wary of ever working with Zed no matter how brilliant he is.

My sentiments exactly. He blames Ruby on Rails for ruining his career. I wonder if maybe it was the notoriety Zed gained by doing Rails related work that led to his career decline. It let people see what a "character" he can be. I'd certainly never heard of him before getting into Rails. If you read the documentation for his projects you can see that it is rather... unprofessional. He laces just about everything he writes with profanity. Not nearly as bad as this rant, but not exactly professional either.

I almost feel bad for him that this senseless rant made it to Slashdot. Who's going to hire him now?

-matthew

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums

[FooBarWidget]

I agree. I've had correspondence with Zed in the past: I was asking him some questions about Rails's support for process forking (I was working on improving Ruby/Rails copy-on-write support), because as the Mongrel author he probably knows some gotchas. What I got in return was a series of very offensive emails. I did my best to stay polite, but every single email I got back seemed to be full of hate and rantings about Rails and Ruby.

No doubt that the guy's brilliant, but I wouldn't want someone like him as my colleague/employee/business partner/etc.

Apparently I'd Agree

[aftk2]

But for the absolute opposite reason: any community that would have this guy as a prominent member and/or mouthpiece is immature indeed.

Re:Still no job?

[AuMatar]

What, you don't like profanity laced rants aimed at you and your employees, from someone who obviously believes his and only his opinion matters?

Based on the writing on his site, I wouldn't hire him for anything. Even if he's a god among programmers, I can hire someone who's 80% as good and causes fewer problems in the workplace, and likely come out ahead due to that.

Holy Cow!

[RAMMS EIN]

Holy cow! I started reading TFA with the idea that there would be some good points in there, but never got to them. What a load of verbal abuse! Excuse me, but I don't fancy reading through that.

I understand that things have really hurt this guy and made him angry, but I don't think this is the way to go about improving things. It may be a good way for him to vent his frustration, but I would say that if you want people to take you seriously, it's better to write down your criticism in a civil manner, with examples of what you are criticizing and, for even better results, suggestions for how to improve things.

A long rant that slings abuse at everything and everyone is bound to just hurt people, and that's rarely if ever a Good Thing. As for me, I won't be reading the article any further, so that's _one_ initially interested reader he has lost. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

Re:Ruby

[nuzak]

Apparently so are some of its former developers.

Clever title, but "Pissy Foul-Mouthed Drama Queen Makes Histrionic Exit from Rails" would have been more accurate. I don't much care for rails either, but I do hope any other project he hops onto doesn't look to him for their public face.

Zed Shaw: A master at self parody

[greg_barton]

I'd never heard of Zed Shaw before this story, but he will now be who I think of when the words "self" and "parody" are juxtaposed in my mind. To wit:

This means that thanks to Larry Flynt I can stab them in the ear verbally, insult them, question their sexual orientation, and say anything that's true and they just have to take it. Their only recourse is to write their pathetic little rebuttals in their stupid little blogs.

Obligatory pot/kettle/black reference.

I'll add one more thing to the people reading this: I mean business when I say I'll take anyone on who wants to fight me. You think you can take me, I'll pay to rent a boxing ring and beat your fucking ass legally.

O....K.... I think that stands by itself.

But wait! There's more...

I've been thinking this over ever since I realized that Mongrel and Rails more or less killed my career.

No, I believe you're doing that...right now...

Before Mongrel I was building kick ass software for the NYC Dept. of Correction with a tiny team.

And, based on the "beat your fucking ass" statements above, he'll be utilizing that software as a client at some point.

After Mongrel I couldn't get a gang of monkeys to rape me, so forget any jobs.

Seriously, based on reading only a portion of his post, I wouldn't hire this man even if he was a coding god. I don't think his woes are due to his previous co-workers. Textbook example of a serious attitude problem.

Zed's So Fucking Awesome

[Serious Callers Only]

I'll add one more thing to the people reading this: I mean business when I say I'll take anyone on who wants to fight me. You think you can take me, I'll pay to rent a boxing ring and beat your fucking ass legally. Remember that I've studied enough martial arts to be deadly even though I'm old, and I don't give a fuck if I kick your mother fucking ass or you kick mine. You don't like what I've said, then write something in reply but fuck you if you think you're gonna talk to me like you can hurt me.

Over and over again I'd run into these morons who would offer me tiny jobs, no jobs, insult my intelligence, treat me like all I can do is code, and when I didn't fit that mold or wanted to charge them for the privilege they'd cheat me or laugh at me.

Google was a total riot. They offered me a job twice. I went with it, and they never responded. Probably because the job they were offering me--someone who's been coding for 21 years, 15 professionally--was as a junior system administrator. What the hell does a junior sysadmin do at google? That's probably like mopping the floor at a glory hole in Queens. I told them to review my resume and offer me a real position.

Perhaps Google read a few paragraphs of Zed's So Fucking Awesome and thought better of asking him to do anything at all. I feel sorry for this guy now because this one post will do more to ruin his career than any minor tantrum in front of a few people (a few of which he describes here). I hear dreamhost is hiring though; his weblog reminds me of theirs.

Re:Zed's So Fucking Awesome

[Unoti]

Definitely. What's the big problem with being a Junior Sysadmin at Google? A true hotshot should be able to move up the hierarchy quickly. Also, earlier in the rant he complains about needing money very badly, and having trouble with clients paying reliably. Sounds like a regular day job is in order, and certainly junior sysadmin at Google is a better idea than cleaning up a glory hole in Queens. I respect the work that Zed's done, and have been impressed with his approaches in the past, but jeez, what a primadonna.

Re:Zed's So Fucking Awesome

[fm6]

A true hotshot should be able to move up the hierarchy quickly.

I've had some interaction with Google, and I get the impression that they have a lot of hotshots and almost no hierarchy. So unless you're hired as an Official Google Genius, you're never going to become one. Really, the only way to do it is to graduate from a good school and/or have a graduate degree and/or do some original computer science that's really impressive. Self-trained "practical" programmers need not apply.

Wow

[andawyr]

That is truly one bitter individual.

I mean, there's such a thing as burning bridges, but he's taken it to the next level. I know for a fact that if I ever received a resume from such an individual, it would go straight into the trash.

As far as I'm concerned, interpersonal skills count for a lot - even if your a genius, in a real environment you'll have to function as part of a team. This guy, well, it seems that he has real difficulties in a team environment. Sure, he may have worked with some individuals that were not up to his standards (would anyone be?), but to say what he said...it's too much.

Good riddance to him.

My favorite part is when he doesn't get it..

[synthesizerpatel]

The manager who dresses him down saying he can't code, then comes back later and claims he meant someone else. Since he's obviously too busy being angry he completely missed that the manager backtracked to try and protect himself from any lawsuits.

What A Maroon!

[MightyMartian]

My favorite part is where he brags about having a business degree, except that prior to that he admitted to being homeless for a big chunk of the year.

This is a classic case of a loser blaming everyone else for his problems. If this idiot didn't know that the world is populated by shitty little startups with no money and big ol' mean corporations that don't pay invoices for 6 weeks then he definitely got into the wrong business.

Blaming a coding environment for your financial woes is like blaming your car because the subway runs late.

Re:Still no job?

[Rakishi]

More companies are deathly confounded by "let's get along" managers who believe teamwork and tolerance are more important than actual good work. No they value actual good work, the actual good work of the whole company not of one self-centered asshole. Life is about compromises and being able to deal with people different from you, if you can't deal with that reality then the problem is you not the rest of society.

Zed would have railed against the open secrets that allowed the tiger escape at the San Francisco zoo, and then he'd have been fired or reprimanded for not being politically and socially correct in his approach. No if he worked for the zoo he'd have been fired for giving public statements when he did not have the authority to (which can and does cause all sorts of problems for a company).

Re:Still no job?

[pudge]

Couldn't what?

You are apparently confused. I already did it. He said, fuck you if you think you're gonna talk to me like you can hurt me. So I did precisely that. I have completed my task, my victory is right there for all to see, and I've proven you wrong when you say I couldn't.

Re:Make the bad man stop

[Henriok]

Maybe I'm confused. I thought the little motto up top said "News for Nerds. Stuff that MATTERS." Who cares about this?

I care. Not so much in the context of Rails, Ruby or Mongrel, but in the context of being an employee in the IT business. Working in teams, working with excentric individuals, stupid bosses, geniuses, hacks, nice but incompetent, obnoxious but blazingly creative, hard working average joes, brilliant slackers. All this is what we all meet every day. It's great to hear these stories, since we all can relate to them, pehaps come to terms with our own failings and forgive the failings in others.

I feel for Zed, I really do. It seems to me that he's one guy who've been screwed one too many times, and breaking down is just too common under such circumstances. People skills, yeah. He might not have them, but reading a story like this makes me more proficient in that department. So.. I think it matters. It matters a lot. To me. To us all.

Re:It's sad that this will reflect on Ruby itself

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think this is about rails hype. This is the case of a prima donna who can't understand that his poisonous attitude is to blame for his unemployment, and not the community that gave him an identity as a useful asshole to have around. Meltdown. Move along, nothing to see here.

Re:Go tolerate yourself.

[fm6]

Albert Einstein actually managed to scuttle his initial post-graduate career because he let everybody know how smart he was. (He actually was as smart as he thought he was, but that didn't make anybody like him any better.) That's why he had to go work as a patent clerk. His best work was done after he'd grown up and gotten more sociable — and collaborative.

Perhaps the Turing machine and Alan's other mathematical achievements occurred in splendid isolation. But what about his work with Enigma? That was a huge project, and I doubt if it got done by him sitting around doing everything himself.

Ada Augusta, as I recall, never delivered any working systems. Wasn't her fault (the technology just wasn't ready for her), but that excludes her as any kind of teamwork benchmark.

Re:Don't threaten people on your company's web sit

[John_Booty]

A threat would be saying that I *would*, rather than *could*, hurt him, which I absolutely did not do.

You don't understand why this is threatening? If I "casually" mentioned that I know where you live and that I used to be a firefighter and know how to get away with arson and that I think you're somebody whose family deserves to suffer, you wouldn't think that was threatening?

(Note: I am entirely non-violent, have never been a firefighter, do not know where you live, and have no idea how to commit arson)

I understand what you're saying - you said you could hurt him, not that you would. I understood that when I read your post without reading your clumsy explanations.

What I am saying is that communication between human beings is not precise like code. You did not say that you would hurt him, but the implication was clear. Obviously, I don't think you have any intention of hurting him. It just makes you look like a typically clueless robot-like nerd, that's all. Try that kind of crap in the real world and you get beaten up and/or slapped with restraining orders and/or worse.

What a poor image you project for your employer!

Why feed the trolls?

[Ayanami Rei]

This story is already flamebait enough as it is to add fuel to the fire in responding to ACs and trolls.
A metadiscussion of the story and the community is warranted and slashdot staffer's feelings about the subject are certainly interesting but this all seems childish...

If you're not doing it for the "lulz" then you should just stop.
If you are doing it for the "lulz" you need to work on your counter-trolling techniques. We expect a more seasoned ZING from the ones with the slashdot icon next to their names.

Round and round

[localman]

I don't want to be a 'Ruby guy' anymore

I'm sorry, but I feel the same thing with every new programming language and/or paradigm. It's just a bunch of busy work to learn a new syntax, find all the best-of-breed libraries, and work around the unforeseen limitations. In the end, you're not more than a negligible amount better than before, and you've wasted a year of your life.

Are there still people out there who believe in the silver bullet? I mean, I understand there are always new people coming into the practice, but I believe we can mature as a group. Nobody advocates GOTO any more, maybe we can stop advocating the endless language churn? It seems like an enormous waste of time.

I mean, follow your bliss, if you've got great ideas, implement them. I've written redundant libraries because I wanted to see how it would be done. Explore, enjoy. But understand that since LISP we've been able to do whatever we wanted to do, so it's all just hand waving at this point.

More power to Ruby. Rails. Python. Whatever. I'm still hacking Perl at the moment and I don't see any compelling reason to switch. I can do what I need to do. I'm sure that your language of choice cuts the mustard too. When the next 10 Super Languages Of The Future (tm) come out in the next decade, I'll enjoy reading about them and watching as they run into their own particular issues because...

Effective Software Design Is Hard.

Cheers.