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RIAA's 'Misspeaking' May Have Affected Verdict

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "David Kravetz of Wired.com covered last year's Capitol v. Thomas trial gavel-to-gavel. It's worth noting, then, his article saying that the RIAA's recent statement — that Sony's top litigation lawyer 'misspoke' during the trial. She said that making a copy from one's own cd is 'stealing', which (in his words) may have caused a major miscarriage of justice. Wired further points out that later on in the trial, during the RIAA's examination of Ms. Thomas, 'On the hard drive she [turned] over were thousands of songs Thomas said she ripped from her CDs. The RIAA's Gabriel suggested to jurors that copying one's purchased music was a violation of the Copyright Act. Gabriel, for example, asked Thomas whether she had ever burned CDs, either for herself, or to give away to friends.' Gabriel, the RIAA's lead attorney, apparently misspoke too — prejudicing jurors along the way."

27 of 270 comments (clear)

  1. perjury ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    can a lawyer be disbarred in the US for "mispeaking" under oath and saying something untrue about the legality of a defendant's conduct, while being questioned as a witness for the side that pays her salary?

    why the hell not?

    1. Re:perjury ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Perjury requires that one *knowingly* lies. Without hard evidence or witness testimony to suggest that the person knowingly lied (and there is none in this instance), there is no case for perjury.

    2. Re:perjury ? by pintpusher · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you implying that this attorney, working for the RIAA and therefore presumably knowledgeable about copyright law, didn't know that claiming personal-copies-as-illegal was a lie?

      I think that attorney should be fired for gross incompetence. I mean come on, it's a copyright attorney, it should know these things.

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
    3. Re:perjury ? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then he was incompetent, and should be disbarred anyway!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:perjury ? by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 4, Insightful

      First -- If we "disbarred" every judge who didn't correct a lawyer's error then there would be no judges left in about a week. Seriously. Lawyers in court, especially in trial court, say dumb things on an hourly (if not more often) basis.

      Second -- It's the job of the other party (here, the defense) to object when a lawyer on the other side says something improper. If the defense failed to object to it then they waived the right to appeal it. The idea is that you want to allow things to be corrected at the time (by telling the jury "that's not the law" or instructing them on what the law really is) rather than looking for mistakes after the fact and having to start all over. Trials are long, complicated, and expensive. If we looked for every mistake after the fact there'd never be any finality to any ruling. Instead, we rely on the defense to catch the plaintiffs' mistakes as trial goes (and vice-versa).

      Third -- It depends on the state, but in most cases there is a judicial misconduct process that requires showing that the judge actively committed some wrong (took money from one side, or tried to intimidate a witness into not testifying, etc). Getting the law wrong happens all the time. That's why we have appeals. If we disciplined every judge who got the law wrong at some point there'd be no judges left and we'd have no reason to have an appeal process. Tens of thousands of cases get appealed every year, and almost every appeal is premised on a claim that the trial judge got the law wrong. That can't be a basis for discipline or we'd run out of judges within a week.

    5. Re:perjury ? by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 4, Insightful

      RTFA -- "she", not "he"

      RTFA -- She claims that she misheard the question and thought they were still discussing downloads, not ripping from disc. Who knows if that's true or not, but it's probably more than enough of a defense against any kind of complaint.

      To reach the level of perjury you need to show that she knowingly and intentionally lied. There are two problems here -- First, she only said it once and claims that she didn't hear the question. To really nail somebody on perjury you have to show that their entire testimony revolved around a big lie. For example, if the witness comes up with a whole story as to where he was on July 2, 2007 that turns out to be a total lie. Even then, it's tough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the witness was entirely fabricating. Second, it has to be an actual statement of fact. The RIAA has announced that they're not pressing the argument that ripping is stealing, but there is an argument that copying a CD to a computer is still copyright infringement. It doesn't matter if it's a good argument or a bad argument (I think most /. readers think it's a bad argument). All that matters is that it's an argument that one could make with a straight face in court (there's a "copy" of the data on the CD created--hence copyright infringement). That's enough to make it not a lie.

      Look, the RIAA does plenty of things wrong. Focus on the real ones rather than the little petty ones.

    6. Re:perjury ? by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Huh? Some states elect state judges, some states appoint state judges, and the federal government appoints federal judges. I'd argue pretty strongly that the appointment systems involve a lot of questions about knowing the law.

      The problem with your statement is that there is a LOT of "the law." The United States Code -- the document that contains all federal laws currently in force -- runs more than 30,000 pages. Nobody ever could "know" all of that law. If you add state laws and federal regulations you're talking in the hundreds of thousands of pages of law.

      Our judges are usually generalists. They hear all kinds of cases. So instead of forcing judges to memorize, we rely on the parties on each side of a lawsuit to present the law to the judge and to inform him what the correct law is. The judge then takes his general legal training and figures out which side is correct, instead of trying to memorize a 30,000-page body of law.

      Good judges are usually good lawyers. They are usually very good at legal reasoning. They usually aren't good at memorizing 30,000 pages of text. I'd much rather have smart judges able to reason than judges who have memorized a huge book.

    7. Re:perjury ? by Kreigaffe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "but there is an argument that copying a CD to a computer is still copyright infringement. It doesn't matter if it's a good argument or a bad argument (I think most /. readers think it's a bad argument). All that matters is that it's an argument that one could make with a straight face in court (there's a "copy" of the data on the CD created--hence copyright infringement). That's enough to make it not a lie."

      Uh. Except it's NOT copyright infringement, it falls under fair use for consumers. we're allowed to make copies of shit for our own personal use.

      Sharing those copies is not allowed.

      Breaking through copy-prevention is now allowed. The copying ITSELF is still allowed, it is the circumvention / disabling of the copy-prevention that is against the law.

      This bitch did not misspeak. She was asked if it was okay for a consumer who legally purchased a track to make a copy of that track. She responded by saying that's a "nice way of saying -- steals one copy."

      She knew exactly what she was saying, there is absolutely no way she could have misunderstood the question to be about illegal downloading, as the RIAA pres claims. Nor was it even a question about ripping CDs, also as stated by the RIAA pres.. it was a question about a legal purchase of a track, and making a copy of that track. Nothing about downloading, nothing about sharing, nothing.

      Their expert testimony just proved itself to be as dumb or dumber than we all thought initially, and is no expert. I for one would not expect an expert to so grossly misunderstand a question that a flat answer would be given -- if there's the least doubt that you fully understand the question I would expect a request for the question to be clarified so a truly expert answer could be given. Not just off-the-cuff let's-make-a-case-OO-RAH bullshit.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    8. Re:perjury ? by vux984 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Uh. Except it's NOT copyright infringement, it falls under fair use for consumers. we're allowed to make copies of shit for our own personal use.

      If it falls under fair use, then it IS copyright infringment by definition.

      An original CD is not an infringing copy. It is an authorized copy. We don't have to defend having it by invoking fair use specifically because its an authorized non-infringing copy.

      If we make a copy of that Cd without express permission of the rights holder then its an unauthorized copy, and infringing copyright. However, if that copy is for our own personal use, making a copy is still legal and defensible with fair use.

      Its still infringing and unauthorized... but its also completely legal. Fair use doesn't make it a non-infringinging copy or somehow provide authorization for the copy... it just makes it legal.

      And if the rights holder decides to sue you for making that non-authorized infringing copy, they will lose, because a fair use defense will (or at least should) prevail.

    9. Re:perjury ? by libkarl2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you implying that this attorney, working for the RIAA and therefore presumably knowledgeable about copyright law, didn't know that claiming personal-copies-as-illegal was a lie? Sounds to me like an attorney stepped over the line, and then thought that her little "mis-statement" would slide by. In other words, told a major case distorting lie in an effort to win by "bending the truth slightly". Sound silly and stupid? Evil perhaps? Well I will go out on a limb (a nice thick, sturdy limb) and say that today in America, there is no shortage of assertive, goal oriented, full grown adult human professionals who are willing to go "that extra mile" to succeed. That is, ya gotta shoplift a few eggs in order to make an omelet. It's about winning. Even if it means winning at things that deteriorate society. The RIAA is gaming the legal system on a massive scale (duh). That they can do this without incurring severe retribution is a testament to their remaining power and influence. However, when you look at who they attack, and how hard they fight, you can tell they are near the end. That power and influence is diminishing, and they know it.

      In answer to the question: it was a massive flaming jury manipulating lie. Even if that was not the intent of the liar, it's still a lie, and worthy of disciplinary action.
      --
      You are where you are at the time you are there.
    10. Re:perjury ? by TheoMurpse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it falls under fair use, then it IS copyright infringment by definition.
      That's utter rubbish
      No, you just don't understand the law. "Fair Use" is an affirmative defense, which means you admit to being culpable for the crime, but then point out that, oh yeah, you still can't beat me. Contrast this with a plain old defense.

      A plain old defense negates an issue the plaintiff had to prove. On the other hand, an affirmative defense acknowledges the existance of the elements the plaintiff had to prove and says that there is still an excuse.

      One way of thinking about it is: a defense is a denial. An affirmative defense is an excuse. See self-defense (which says you still committed murder--that is, intentionally took a human life--but were justified in doing so). You still murdered; you're just not guilty of murder.

      Affirmative defense
      Defense
  2. Unfortunately for Thomas, it doesn't matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unfortunately for Thomas, it doesn't matter. The evidence was overwhelming, and unlike most of the RIAA's targets, Thomas was guilty and the evidence suggests she knew what she was doing was illegal (she destroyed her original hard drive).

  3. Can we define copyright as between two people? by compumike · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can we please redefine copyright law as being applicable only when a protected work is copied between two people? This way, reselling a used CD would still be OK (right of resale, copyright law does not apply). And making a copy from one media format to another, or a temporary copy to RAM, or a backup copy, or transcoding, would all be legal and not under copyright law either, because there would not be any exchange between two people.

    I suspect that this is how copyright was originally intended to apply, and I think it makes more sense. Let people do what they want with their media, as long as they don't copy and distribute it to another person. Thats when copyright law should apply.

    --
    Our microcontroller kit. Your gcc compiler. Learn digital elecronics!

    1. Re:Can we define copyright as between two people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I disagree, we should bite the bullet and define that copyright violation has only occurred when copying was done for commercial gain. (note, commercial gain would include putting files up on a web page with ads)

      Enforcing copyright is an absurd way to get average people to pay for content. Its like walking cats. Instead people need to realize that they need to pay to get the good entertainment they want.
      Yes some people will get what others payed to produce for free. But at least they got what they wanted for a fair price. Those some wouldn't have contributed in the first place, and thanks to the magic of practicaly free copying, they don't harm those who payed.

    2. Re:Can we define copyright as between two people? by Bogtha · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK for example it's illegal to use a VCR to record a TV programme

      This is not true. This falls under "fair dealing". See Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, Section III, Chapter 1.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
  4. I make an illegal copy of my CD when I play it... by speculatrix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    .. because copies exists not only on the CD but also (1) in the digital bitstream being processed by the digital processing in my home cinema amp, (2) another in the sound pressure waves in the air, and (3) a further one in my brain as it listens.

    Sometimes I even violate copyright by singing along to a song without having bought a performance license! Even worse, I might sing the song at a different time, thus time-shifting/reproducing it! If I hum it in a public place, that compounds the crime because then it's a public performance.

    Since I want to avoid becoming a career copyright-violating criminal, I am moving to Antigua, land of the free, land of RIAA-copyright-free.

    Sadly, I wish everything I wrote above was bollocks, but far fetched and silly as it might be, it seems the Recording Ass of America don't see it as such.

  5. I wonder... by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if Cary Sherman and Jennifer Pariser have told the judge that Ms. Pariser "misspoke".

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  6. Re:Freudian Slip by jamstar7 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Of course that's how they really feel. CD sales are at an all-time low, and their revenue model is swimming like a rock. The reason all these suits are going on is because if they get enough 'wins' as precedent in court, they can then bother their paid-for shills, er, Congressmen, to pass legislation necessary for their share of corporate welfare funded by the tax payer.

    Of course, they'd also love to use the same idea the telecoms use for the internet: collect from both ends for the same byte. In this scenario, they collect from the radio station for playing their overblown crap^F^Flatest hits, and force all new radios made to 'feature' a credit card slot as part of the device. The radio won't work until you plug in the credit card, and by the terms of service of the radio, you cannot dispute the charges on your credit card bill. Scared yet?

    --
    Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  7. Re:Freudian Slip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The RIAA have felt this way for years and it has nothing to do with current CD sales. In fact, during the late 90's when CD sales were at record highs, their web site claimed that ripping a CD was illegal (they had the legal wherewithal to remove those statements fairly quickly once discussions started picking up about it around the 'Net). The RIAA's head mouth piece even opined that one should have to buy a CD for the home stereo and another for the car stereo.

    This is the fantasy world that the RIAA uses as a lens to see the real world. It is their heart's desire to make the two worlds align perfectly where their fantasies become legally enforceable reality.

  8. Re:Freudian Slip by antispam_ben · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's already the "tape tax" law from the early '90's, in which a tax on blank tape was distributed to the RIAA/record companies to supposedly be distributed to the artists who were losing sales to "home taping." It also applies to "audio CD-R's" that I don't think anyone uses anymore. They were needed on standalone CD recorders which were crippled not to record on standard data CD-R's. You had to pay the "tape tax" to record anything ob those recorders, even your own original music!

    The RIAA's ultimate goal is to tax the bits coming out of A/D converters so they can "plug" the "analog hole" as well as having full control over of making digital copies of anything.

    --
    Tag lost or not installed.
  9. Future EULA by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When I buy a CD, I have PURCHASED the CD and the data contained on it. It is now my property. Period.

    When you buy a cd, you puchase the disk and the music/data on it. You do NOT purchase a license to simply use the disk and listen to the music. That being said, if I buy a CD, then I should have the right to make as many copies of the music on it as I see fit, as long as I don't sell those copies to other people.

    If the RIAA wants to start this whole EULA-esque crap, then they should state that you are not buying a CD, but rather purchasing a license.

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
  10. Re:Bad Lawyers by exley · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Thomas' lawyer didn't pick up that lie by Sony's lawyer to convince the jury that Sony would lie about consumer rights and RIAA rights, then Thomas' lawyer should be fired.

    Thank Christ someone finally pointed this out. This is another one of those non-story Slashdot stories -- it's just preaching to the choir and doing so in a rather questionable manner. Is the RIAA lawyer a douchebag for playing fast and loose with the language? Of course -- but that's why a defendant isn't alone in our justice system. That's why there's a defense attorney, part of whose job it should be to counter any bullshit from the accusers, and a jury whose job it is to see through both sides' bullshit. Of course the system isn't perfect, but that's how it works.

    Continuing on that theme, Thomas was more a victim of a lousy defense and just plain stupidity. There's a lot more to what went into the verdict than one simple "misspeak" by a lawyer, and this "story" is blowing out of proportion just one part of the case.

  11. Lawyers "Misspeak" by hyades1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When you or I do it, it's called "perjury".

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  12. DMCA. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For CDs, that is still true. For DVDs, not so much. And I imagine it would apply to any of the bastardized CDs (Sony rootkit, etc).

    This is because, as I said in my other comment on this thread, the DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent copy protection. It doesn't matter that what you're going to do with it constitutes fair use; the act of circumvention is itself illegal.

    So, in theory, if you have a CD with the Sony Rootkit on it, you're not allowed to rip it, because to do so, you'd have to "circumvent" the DRM by disabling AutoRun, or by using Mac or Linux.

    This should hold for EULAs, also. All they have to do is provide built-in DRM which you have to go through to do anything. Then, they don't even have to declare what you can and can't do in legal terms -- anything the DRM explicitly allows you to do is legal, anything else is not.

    And that, boys and girls, is the real reason for the War on Piracy: Control.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  13. Re:Bad Lawyers by slashqwerty · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Her lawyer's fees were barely covered with $17,000 of donations. At typical lawyer fees of $200 per hour that's two weeks of work. This was a precedent setting case. How could he possibly have been ready with two weeks of work? Perhaps that's why he made egregious errors such as:

    1. Arguing that someone could have hacked into her wi-fi...if she had wi-fi! That argument made it look like she had no case and was instead grasping at straws.
    2. Failing to explain how someone else could have used her login name (such as the neighbor stealing internet access under her name and using the same name to log into Kazaa; or a trojan that logged into Kazaa with the login name on her machine). As far as I'm concerned this was the single biggest issue presented at trial and all the defense could do was make vague references to identity theft?
    3. Failed to explain how someone else could have used her IP number (such as the neighbor stealing internet access or a trojan taking over her machine).
    4. Failure to present evidence showing the prevalence of trojans, worms, viruses, etc.
    5. Failed to address the amount of time it would take to cause the damage the RIAA was claiming. To upload 3.7 million copies of the songs she would have had to start before she was born. And 222,000 copies would have taken a couple years.
    6. ISPs, in particular her ISP Comcast, keep track of how much bandwidth their customers use. I'm sure the RIAA would have presented it as evidence if it favored their side. The fact that we never heard any numbers tells me Thomas' lawyer just wasn't knowledgeable enough to ask.
    7. Failed to point out the blatant misrepresentation of the RIAA's expert witness when he claimed copying one song every 20-30 seconds means it must have come from another hard drive (hint: the math works out perfect for a CD-ROM and an order of magnitude too long for a hard drive). Instead they presented some pathetic theatrics that an uninformed jury no doubt dismissed.
    8. Failed to challenge the credentials and methods of the RIAA's expert witness.

    Many of these were tied to the lack of an expert witness. Nevertheless her lawyer should have addressed the last issue at a minimum.

  14. HMRA 1992 by Grampaw+Willie · · Score: 2, Insightful
    it appears to me the music business has no case whatever against non-commercial home use pursuant to Subchapter D of the 1992 HMRA:

    Subchapter D --Prohibition on Certain Infringement Actions, Remedies, and Arbitration

      1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions

    No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings.


    what does this all mean? if you buy a music CD you can play it anyway you want for yourself. put a copy in your car put a copy in your ear, anyplace you like

    BUT DON'T PUBLISH A COPY

    if you publish a copy -- e.g. off a web site or network share off a P2P net -- you are outside of "home use"

    publishing is reserved to the copyright holder by US copyright law, and guess what, Clones: you ain't gonna change that. The law will likely be clarified however.
  15. Re:What about the AHRA? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm willing to don my aluminum foil conspiracy theory hat for a moment and make the following supposition: The RIAA is attempting to get testimony introduced into a case involving file sharing that equates CD ripping with sharing. Once a judge is conned into issuing a decision that implies ripping itself is illegal, the RIAA will extend its enforcement based upon this new precedent. That's pretty much the idea. But to refine it just a bit:

    1. The RIAA's leading precedent for its "making available" theory is the Hotaling case. Hotaling has been distinguished on the ground that the copies being 'made available' were concededly unlawful copies. If the RIAA can establish that copies ripped from cd are 'unlawful', then Hotaling case can't be distinguished on that ground.

    2. If in their filesharing cases they can argue, as they did in Capitol v. Thomas, that the mere fact that a defendant has song files on his computer which he copied from his cd's is in itself unlawful conduct, it helps to make the defendant look bad. This was the tactic they used in Capitol v. Thomas. Jennifer Pariser testified that it is unlawful to make copies from cd's onto one's computer. And then Richard Gabriel roasted Ms. Thomas during her crossexamination over the fact that she'd copied cd's to her hard drive without his clients' permission. I haven't seen the transcript yet, but apparently neither the judge nor Ms. Thomas's lawyer picked up on the fact that the jury was being misled. This is the RIAA's game : taking advantage of unknowledgeable judges and overmatched, underpaid attorneys.
    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful