There's No Such Thing as 'Wireless HDMI'

An anonymous reader writes "CE Pro magazine interviewed Steve Venuti and Les Chard of HDMI Licensing, LLC to get a preview of all things HDMI at CES. The duo addressed some of the more controversial issues surrounding HDMI, including 'Wireless HDMI' (There's no such thing); Consumer Electronics Control (There will be interoperability); competitor DisplayPort (No traction in CE); and the complications of HDMI ('It is not an HDMI problem. It's a digital issue.')"

Comments

what it is

[bcrowell]

Would it be too much trouble for the submitter to explain what the acronym HDMI stands for, or at least to link to the WP article? Even after reading the WP article, I don't really know much about it.

Since it's a device for imposing DRM, there's presumably some mechanism for forcing the user to buy and use it. What is the mechanism? What types of equipment require it? The closest the WP article comes to discussing it seems to be this: "Both introduced in 2006, Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD offer new high-fidelity audio features that require HDMI for best results." Well, I'm still in the dark. What does "best results" mean? What are your results like if you don't use it?

Another thing I don't understand is how they think this kind of hardware-based DRM can work. All it takes is one hardware hacker to figure out how to tap in to some unencrypted signals, e.g., by connecting onto circuit boards. Once there's a single device that can be hacked by a publicly known procedure, every DRM'd movie out there can be transcoded into a non-DRM'd format.

One interesting sentence from the WP article: "PCs with hardware HDMI output may require software support from Operating Systems such as Windows Vista." So does this mean that you can't use the technology on a Mac, for example? I'm also curious whether any manufacturers are actually making mobos or video cards with hdmi connectors on them.

And how does this fit in with the apparently overwhelming recent trend away from DRM in music? Is it really believable that movies will go the other way?

Re:what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thing I don't understand is how they think this kind of hardware-based DRM can work. All it takes is one hardware hacker to figure out how to tap in to some unencrypted signals, e.g., by connecting onto circuit boards. Once there's a single device that can be hacked by a publicly known procedure, every DRM'd movie out there can be transcoded into a non-DRM'd format. You are, of course, correct.

However, there is a somewhat popular theory that says that DRM doesn't need to be perfect in order to be effective. According to this theory, if DRM can stop or slow down some people from pirating, then it will push a certain percentage of them toward legal purchases.

I do believe that at this point in time, we have had enough DRM failures so that the media executives finally understand that they need to lower their expectations of what DRM can do for them. (Good evidence of this is the recent availability of authorized DRM-free music online from the major labels.)

HDCP was mandated several years ago, before media executives started understanding the limitations of DRM. I believe that the conventional wisdom among media executives now is: "The long-term benefit of HDCP is uncertain, but there's no reason to discontinue it, because it might help slow down piracy -- at least in the short-term."

Also, there is another theory that says it may be possible to create a DRM system that is unobtrusive enough that it won't piss off customers too much, and therefore (when combined with the theory above) could result in a net positive for the media companies. Media executives are taking a wait-and-see attitude to see if HDCP turns out to be such a system.

Re:"It's a digital issue"

[toiletsalmon]

Eventually the digital signal will be sent into my analog TV via the tuner-box that the government is giving me a $40 coupon for.

Government Subsidized Media Time-shifting FTW :)

Re:Bah humbug

[kherr]

This is one of the main reasons I'm still using component video for my HD. Okay, mostly I have an early set that has no HDMI, but I've yet to rely on HDMI for anything. I've recently added a TiVo HD and Blu-ray player to my component video world, so you can get current HD gear without diving into HDMI. And no HDCP worries. I know I run the risk of getting hurt by that, but I think I'll get years of HD enjoyment before HDCP becomes a show-stopper (pun intended). And with any luck the DRM problem will become more difficult than it's worth, like we're seeing with music.

I'm sure the HDMI interop problems aren't as nasty as just a couple years ago, but it's been astounding how fragile the HDMI universe has appeared. For example, the Apple TV forum is peppered with people having difficulty getting TVs working with the Apple TV via HDMI. I just hooked up via component and had no worries. And what happens with HDMI 1.1 devices when all of a sudden everyone demands HDMI 1.3? That really is a "digital issue" because it's far too easy for the industry to "improve" the spec and then orphan a bunch of older hardware.

Re:Bah humbug

[evanbd]

If the devices aren't compliant, they shouldn't be sold as such. Testing for compliance and certifying devices as compliant would be the logical role of the licensing agency. They shouldn't let people put the HDMI name on something if it doesn't work. As such, it certainly is their fault that these devices don't interoperate properly. And if the standard is so complicated that they can't actually test for compliance, then that's their fault too.

So they plan to spring the trap in 2009?

[Xenographic]

The HDCP DRM functions by way of a system called the image constraint token. You can plug an HD-DVD or blu-ray player into a tv via analog component (RGB), but the manufacturers of those discs have the ability to activate the image constraint system on the disc if they wish. Unless the player reports that it's connected via HDMI (and thus has the ability to encrypt the signal), the output resolution on the video is reduced to 1/4th the original (960x540 vs. 1920x1080). As far as I know, no disc currently shipping implements the constraint token, and the studios stated that they planned to hold off on activating it until 2009.

This is the important part, IMHO. They intend to wait until people have "upgraded" to HDMI before they spring the DRM trap on them. Then again, I'm sure that the pirate copies won't contain any image constraint tokens.

Just what the hell kind of business are they running when "thieves" treat their customers better?

10.2Gbps Wireless?

[Doc Ruby]

HDMI bandwidth is 10.2Gbps synchronous (ie. not packet switched). 10Gbps (theoretical max) wired ethernet therefore won't even do it, not with a single cable. Is there any wireless protocol that could deliver HDMI data without loss, even using multiple channels (if properly supported)?

HDMI Licensing, LLC?

[jeffkjo1]

HDMI Licensing, LLC

This is perhaps unrelated to the original purpose of the thread, but HDMI Licensing, LLC? So there's a whole company whose purpose is just to license the HDMI Connector? Well, they're not doing a good job, because it's all but impossible to find HDMI to HDMI connectors at most stores.

More than that, has anyone heard of an RCA Cable Licensing LLC? A cursory search of the internet doesn't yield any attempts by RCA to control dissemination of the now ubiquitous cable. Perhaps HDMI doesn't need a whole company....

Re:Bah humbug

[pvera]

The HDMI compliance issue is very real.

1.My first attempt at purchasing an HDTV LCD (Westinghouse) drove me nuts because even if it was advertised as HDMI, it would not pass sound. A week later it died, so I returned it.

2. My second and third attempts (Magnavox and Memorex, both 19") worked fine with our two Xbox 360s and our HDMI upscaling DVD players.

3. I swapped the 19" Memorex for a 32" Olevia. It worked fine with the HDMI upscaling DVD players but the Xbox 360s could not get a secure link. That TV is still with us, with the 360 connected to it with component cables, my son doesn't mind. After very little research I found dozens of documented cases of people that couldn't get the 360 to connect to that specific 32" Olevia model. Olevia TVs have a USB port for firmware updates, but to date there is no firmware update for that specific model.

4. I swapped the 19" Magnavox with a 37" Olevia, which has dual inputs for everything. Both the 360 and the HDMI upscaling DVD players connected at the same (same HDMI cables that failed with the 32" Olevia) and everything works beautifully.

5. I also noticed a separate issue with the upscaling DVD players that we were using (Philips, we got them for about $55 at Target right before Xmas). Whenever we switched inputs and tried to go back to that HDMI channel, it would not recognize the link and forced us to restart the DVD player. The 360 never had that issue with the five TVs we have tried to date.

To add insult to injury, those cables are expensive if you buy them at retail. A friend just picked an upscaling DVD player with HDMI at Walmart last night for less than $40, then almost flipped when he saw that the cable would cost almost the same.

Re:Bah humbug

[AJWM]

Nobody in their right mind buys cables at places like Best Buy unless they need the cable right now. Things like that are high markup items, where the stores more than make up for the couple of dollars they shave off the suggested retail of whatever electronics box is on sale this week.

One of my favorite places to order cables, Microbarn, sells 50 foot HDMI cables for $26.99, qty one. Cheaper if you're buying a bunch. The main cost in HDMI cables is the connectors, (a 6 foot HDMI cable at Microbarn is $6, or only $4 for nickel plated connectors), partly due to licensing costs, but wire is cheap.