There's No Such Thing as 'Wireless HDMI'

An anonymous reader writes "CE Pro magazine interviewed Steve Venuti and Les Chard of HDMI Licensing, LLC to get a preview of all things HDMI at CES. The duo addressed some of the more controversial issues surrounding HDMI, including 'Wireless HDMI' (There's no such thing); Consumer Electronics Control (There will be interoperability); competitor DisplayPort (No traction in CE); and the complications of HDMI ('It is not an HDMI problem. It's a digital issue.')"

Comments

"It's a digital issue"

[Sylos]

Yup, that's why we have analog..

Re:"It's a digital issue"

[djlemma]

Too bad we won't have analog much longer..

At least not in the US.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.html

Re:"It's a digital issue"

[toiletsalmon]

Eventually the digital signal will be sent into my analog TV via the tuner-box that the government is giving me a $40 coupon for.

Government Subsidized Media Time-shifting FTW :)

Re:"It's a digital issue"

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, from the dta2009.gov website FAQ:

Using a Coupon
2. Can I use my coupons to purchase any TV converter box?
No. The government will provide a list of coupon-eligible converter boxes and participating retailers here. You may also ask participating retailers whether TV converter boxes in their stores can be purchased with the $40 government coupon.
...
18. Can coupons be used toward the price of an upgraded converter box (for example, a box that includes a DVR)?
No. Coupons are only valid for eligible converter boxes. The intent of the program is to allow consumers to continue to view TV over-the-air on the same TV they used prior to the transition, not to enable upgrades in technology. FTL :(

Bah humbug

[hcdejong]

Blatant lies like It is not an HDMI problem. It's a digital issue make me want to avoid HDMI like the plague. I'd like to replace my 22 year-old TV and rubbish VHS VCR with a digital system, but I've been putting it off for three years now because I can't bring myself to expend the time and headaches involved in figuring out a system that works.

Re:Bah humbug

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I think it's reasonable to say that, supposedly there are plenty of devices that aren't really HDMI compliant electrically, being a bit out of spec. Or if you get a bum cable, then maybe you're going to have problems. I am disappointed that they didn't make the connector more positive, most connector designs hold the cable in a bit better, and the VGA and DVI cable had screws. But it's done pretty well for me there too.

Personally, I don't think HDMI problems are as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Remember the "Internet Bullhorn Effect", which causes people to think problems are bigger than they really are. I have a 50ft HDMI cable between my HD player and my projector and have had zero problems. I also only paid $55 for the cable too.

Re:Bah humbug

[Chrisje]

Well, I just bought myself an LCD TV. 37" size. It's got two HDMI connectors on the back which are idling.

My set-top box is an older one, so I used an expensive SCART cable to route the vid to the TV. This provides a nice enough image, although some programs appear to be a bit pixelated. This was already the case on my 29" CRT though. The image quality however, is very nice. All audio runs through my receiver, this includes the Set-top box.

Then I connected my Wii and my DVD player to my receiver using component video, which is ample for support of 720p (or in the case of both devices, the 480p they provide). Now the image quality is still very nice, and the sound also gets routed (optical from DVD, stereo-jacks-to-Dolby-PLII for the Wii) through my trusty receiver.

As far as the Laptop is concerned, I connect that with a standard issue VGA cable to the VGA input connector on the back. The TV gets seen by the system, and images are crisp and clear at 1366x768 resolution. Possibly, my laptop gives the best image quality using that connection. Cable costs 5 Euros at the local HW store. Sound gets (again) routed through my trusty receiver.

You can tell me that none of this is a "true HD" setup because I "should be using HDMI with an HD DVD player at 1080p", but in the mean time I'm watching TV and playing games and movies on a nice size screen.

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that HDMI doesn't even need to enter the picture if you want a flat screen and a DVD player. 25 Dollar component-to-component cables will do you fine on the back of a normal DVD player. I promise.

Re:Bah humbug

[evanbd]

If the devices aren't compliant, they shouldn't be sold as such. Testing for compliance and certifying devices as compliant would be the logical role of the licensing agency. They shouldn't let people put the HDMI name on something if it doesn't work. As such, it certainly is their fault that these devices don't interoperate properly. And if the standard is so complicated that they can't actually test for compliance, then that's their fault too.

Re:Bah humbug

[el americano]

I also only paid $55 for the cable too.

That's more than I've ever paid for a cable, but you seem to feel that you got a bargain. I guess you have drunk the Kool-Aid.

Re:Bah humbug

[pvera]

The HDMI compliance issue is very real.

1.My first attempt at purchasing an HDTV LCD (Westinghouse) drove me nuts because even if it was advertised as HDMI, it would not pass sound. A week later it died, so I returned it.

2. My second and third attempts (Magnavox and Memorex, both 19") worked fine with our two Xbox 360s and our HDMI upscaling DVD players.

3. I swapped the 19" Memorex for a 32" Olevia. It worked fine with the HDMI upscaling DVD players but the Xbox 360s could not get a secure link. That TV is still with us, with the 360 connected to it with component cables, my son doesn't mind. After very little research I found dozens of documented cases of people that couldn't get the 360 to connect to that specific 32" Olevia model. Olevia TVs have a USB port for firmware updates, but to date there is no firmware update for that specific model.

4. I swapped the 19" Magnavox with a 37" Olevia, which has dual inputs for everything. Both the 360 and the HDMI upscaling DVD players connected at the same (same HDMI cables that failed with the 32" Olevia) and everything works beautifully.

5. I also noticed a separate issue with the upscaling DVD players that we were using (Philips, we got them for about $55 at Target right before Xmas). Whenever we switched inputs and tried to go back to that HDMI channel, it would not recognize the link and forced us to restart the DVD player. The 360 never had that issue with the five TVs we have tried to date.

To add insult to injury, those cables are expensive if you buy them at retail. A friend just picked an upscaling DVD player with HDMI at Walmart last night for less than $40, then almost flipped when he saw that the cable would cost almost the same.

Re:Bah humbug

[AJWM]

Nobody in their right mind buys cables at places like Best Buy unless they need the cable right now. Things like that are high markup items, where the stores more than make up for the couple of dollars they shave off the suggested retail of whatever electronics box is on sale this week.

One of my favorite places to order cables, Microbarn, sells 50 foot HDMI cables for $26.99, qty one. Cheaper if you're buying a bunch. The main cost in HDMI cables is the connectors, (a 6 foot HDMI cable at Microbarn is $6, or only $4 for nickel plated connectors), partly due to licensing costs, but wire is cheap.

Re:Bah humbug

[walt-sjc]

I have a 50' HDMI cable too. My components are in a cabinet in the front corner, and the TV is mounted on the back wall. Cable has to go down through the basement.

Here's the problem. When you go long, the cable diameter increases as the wire size increases. My cable is 1/2" in diameter. It doesn't bend well, and you can't do much of a bend by the connector due to stresses. This makes it a bitch to plug in to the set.

HDMI sucks. Pro gear doesn't use it, it uses a HD version of SDI which only uses coax cables and has a MUCH longer distance capability without repeaters. Love your HDMI all you want. I hate it with a passion.

I want optical. Optical is future proof and doesn't have a distance issue (within reason.) It uses standard connectors which are MUCH easier to terminate than they used to be. It isn't reasonable to terminate your own HDMI cables in any case, so concerns about termination are moot. Prebuilt optical cables over a certain length are less expensive than HDMI too. Thinner, better capacity, etc.

The HDMI folks can take their spec and shove it. Idiots.

Re:Bah humbug

[GoRK]

Personally, I don't think HDMI problems are as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. I have had trouble with every HDMI setup I have ever touched and 100% of the problems without a single exception have been with the HDCP handshake. It hasn't seemed to matter if it's low end, high end, old, or new gear it simply doesn't work reliably 100% of the time and therein lies the real problem.

You know, while the HDMI people were ripping off the DVI standard to make some extra money they should have done something innovative to improve upon it. The physical connector of HDMI is worse than DVI, the audio channel is very limited in the bitstreams it can transport, and the data channel is a complete and total joke. On top of this they didn't bother to make HDCP any more robust than it was with DVI, leaving everyone with a horribly broken "standard" to adhere to. To add insult to it, they keep changing the thing because they couldn't get it right to begin with.

terrible connector

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they gonna fix the issue of a limp friction-fit connector at the back of enormous TVs trying to hold back the weight of a thick cable? Who thought that one up? It's hideous.

Re:terrible connector

[cheater512]

You have a 40' TV and your concerned about the plugs size?

what it is

[bcrowell]

Would it be too much trouble for the submitter to explain what the acronym HDMI stands for, or at least to link to the WP article? Even after reading the WP article, I don't really know much about it.

Since it's a device for imposing DRM, there's presumably some mechanism for forcing the user to buy and use it. What is the mechanism? What types of equipment require it? The closest the WP article comes to discussing it seems to be this: "Both introduced in 2006, Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD offer new high-fidelity audio features that require HDMI for best results." Well, I'm still in the dark. What does "best results" mean? What are your results like if you don't use it?

Another thing I don't understand is how they think this kind of hardware-based DRM can work. All it takes is one hardware hacker to figure out how to tap in to some unencrypted signals, e.g., by connecting onto circuit boards. Once there's a single device that can be hacked by a publicly known procedure, every DRM'd movie out there can be transcoded into a non-DRM'd format.

One interesting sentence from the WP article: "PCs with hardware HDMI output may require software support from Operating Systems such as Windows Vista." So does this mean that you can't use the technology on a Mac, for example? I'm also curious whether any manufacturers are actually making mobos or video cards with hdmi connectors on them.

And how does this fit in with the apparently overwhelming recent trend away from DRM in music? Is it really believable that movies will go the other way?

Re:what it is

[Jeff DeMaagd]

And how does this fit in with the apparently overwhelming recent trend away from DRM in music? Is it really believable that movies will go the other way?

Movies have been copy protected for a long time. VHS had Macrovision, DVD had CSS and HD formats have AACS. They've all been broken though.

HDMI's copy protection has been broken, it's actually the weak point in the chain, HDCP strippers are available. and the encryption is much simpler than what the HD movies have.

Re:what it is

[InvalidError]

Since it's a device for imposing DRM, there's presumably some mechanism for forcing the user to buy and use it. What is the mechanism? What types of equipment require it?

HDMI is only a link-level protocol, electrical, cable and plug/jack specification much like 100BaseTX. HDCP is the actual DRM introduced along with HDMI and it has been adopted by both DVI and DisplayPort.

HDCP (be it over HDMI, DVI or DisplayPort) is only required for playing back DRM-infested media at full resolution on DRM-infested OSes like Vista.

Re:what it is

[UserChrisCanter4]

HDMI is DVI video + digital audio + a DRM system called HDCP (High-bandwidth digital copy protection). HDMI cables have a different pin-out than traditional DVI connectors, but there are adapters that can take one to the other. The DRM system is not required unless the media requires it (more on this below). So, for example, I have my home theater PC connected to my HDTV via a DVI->HDMI cable, and it works just fine. The digital audio on HDMI has the ability to transmit faster than the old S/PDIF system, but other than that it's pretty straight forward.

The HDCP DRM functions by way of a system called the image constraint token. You can plug an HD-DVD or blu-ray player into a tv via analog component (RGB), but the manufacturers of those discs have the ability to activate the image constraint system on the disc if they wish. Unless the player reports that it's connected via HDMI (and thus has the ability to encrypt the signal), the output resolution on the video is reduced to 1/4th the original (960x540 vs. 1920x1080). As far as I know, no disc currently shipping implements the constraint token, and the studios stated that they planned to hold off on activating it until 2009.

In the computer world, the OS as well as your computer hardware has to support the system if you want to playback video that requires HDCP encryption for full resolution. Many video card manufacturers are currently shipping cards with DVI that has HDCP capability, but you'll need Vista to enable it as far as I know. You'll also need a monitor or television with HDCP support. This usually means purchasing a monitor with HDMI inputs, but there are many that use DVI and support HDCP over DVI. One manufacturer I know of, ASUS, is currently shipping a mainboard based on the NForce chipset that has an HDMI output that actually combines the onboard video and audio into the single cable, but for everyone else you'll generally have to run the audio over coaxial or optical digital and the video over HDCP-eqipped DVI or an HDMI connection that isn't transmitting audio.

The comical part, of course, is that they've spent so much time locking down the video stream when it's far more likely that people will crack all of the DRM at the disc level. HD-DVD has already been mostly compromised, and Blu-Ray discs have an extra level of DRM that hasn't yet been implemented but is theoretically supported in all Blu-ray player. Of course, I'm sure it will be just as foolproof as all the other DRM systems...

At the end of the day, the principle complaint that people have with HDMI is that the need to handshake for encryption sometimes gets screwed up, especially when switching inputs. So, for example, most people who plug their PS3 straight into the TV do fine, but if you plug it into an audio receiver and plug the receiver into the TV, people may experience a blank screen when they switch back to the PS3 input because the system is convinced that the link has been broken. In this situation, you have to go unplug and replug the HDMI cable to re-establish the link and get your video signal back. Highly annoying, but nothing like the ridiculous "We're closing our online video store so your purchases are now worthless because they can no longer be authenticated." In my opinion, the benefits of the single cable digital audio+video outweigh the minor and occasional annoyance, although it sucks that the annoyance only exists because of the asinine requirement for DRM on the cable.

Re:CES is the new LinuxWorld

[pla]

Amazing how big CES has gotten in the last 7 years. Now it's the center of the universe. Don't forget to mention DVR for OCAP.

Don't know if you meant that as sarcasm, but for at least 15 years, I've always waited until after the January CES to make any large tech purchases... Not because I always want the cutting edge (in fact, I usually avoid most of the newest of the new at the CES), but because it drives the price of the last year's toys over a cliff.

Or looked at a bit more cynically - It happens after the holiday season for a reason. ;-)

In other news...

[rhizome]

Industrialists say smog isn't a pollution problem, it's an air problem.

10.2Gbps Wireless?

[Doc Ruby]

HDMI bandwidth is 10.2Gbps synchronous (ie. not packet switched). 10Gbps (theoretical max) wired ethernet therefore won't even do it, not with a single cable. Is there any wireless protocol that could deliver HDMI data without loss, even using multiple channels (if properly supported)?

What's a "digital issue?" There were none with CDs

[dpbsmith]

And why should there be such a thing as a "digital issue?"

I don't remember any "modulation issues" when FM radio was introduced. You just bought the damn radio and it worked, except the sound was better than AM.

I don't remember any "magnetic issues" when cassettes were introduced. You just bought the damn cassette player and it worked, except the sound wasn't quite as good as LPs... but the cassettes were compact and there weren't any ticks, pops, or scratches.

And for that matter I don't remember any "digital issues" when CDs were introduced. You just bought the damn CD player and it worked, except that the sound was better then on cassettes. (And for 98% of all ears on 98% of all recordings in 98% of all real-world consumer situations, it was much better than LPs, too).

If the customer is using HDMI and having "issues," then they're HDMI issues.

No, the problem *IS* HDMI

[Anonymous Coward]

If the morons who designed it had any experience with actual AV equipment, they would have copied HD-SDI instead of DVI.

HD-SDI lets you have 100m runs over standard 75ohm cable, terminated in standard BNC connectors.

Compared to HDMI or DVI which can't be terminated, so it can't be run through walls, and running it through a wall would probably exceed the maximum run anyway. The only way to make a long DVI run is to use expensive extenders that require power on either side. And even then

If the guys who designed HDMI had copied HD-SDI instead, there would be no home theater installation issues.

dom