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FTC Offput by Offsets

theodp writes "US corporations and shoppers spent more than $54M last year on credits toward tree planting, wind farms, solar plants and other projects, prompting the FTC to question whether carbon-offset money is well spent. 'There's a heightened potential for deception,' said FTC Chairwoman Deborah Platt Majoras of the green-sounding offers that seem to be confronting consumers at every turn."

12 of 225 comments (clear)

  1. That's accountable though! by StefanJ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You could have a whole industry of finger-pointers and fact checkers looking into the effectiveness of offset claims.

    The example of green server farms doesn't strike me as ludicrous or faddish. It's really easy to measure things like power consumption.

    Siting would in part determine where the power is coming from. You could also do cool things like setting up in a northern state that gets lots of snow, and use ice ponds to assist the air conditioning.

    It's conceivable that big farms could invest in local alternative energy plants as a way of stabilizing long-term costs and priority during shortages.

    You could back up wind power with an investment in "methane farming" at a local landfill. Methane could be stored and "burned" in a fuel cell stack when the grid or wind farm can't supply cheap and/or "green" juice.

  2. All Hogwash! by no-body · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In Germany, the power companies are selling electricity generated by coal and atomic power stations as "green" electricity i. e. people signing up for green (derived from resuable resources - wind, sun, tides) are to be environmentally mindful get just the opposite.

    They feel cheated, are mad, protest and sue.

    Whole parts of cities all of a sudden are using "green" electricity, which is impossible because the resources are not there.

    The power companies can do that because they buy carbon credits (or whatever that excuse to just go on as usual is called).

    The corporations buy the polititians (as one can see clearly on the money spent currently greasing the US 2008 elections) and then weak laws with loopholes and missleading names (1984-style) are made.

    1. Re:All Hogwash! by no-body · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Atomic power is not considered as "green" and people promoting the environment mostly oppose it and for good reasons. On this topic, btw.:

      A recent study over there (GE) - done by respectable research bodies and ordered either by the government or the entity overseeing the atomic energy industry - has found an increase of children leukemia out of the average the closer the kids are living to an atomic power station.

      The puzzling fact is that this cannot be explained by radiation levels since those are way below any limits. That was fairly recent - 1-2 months ago and they are still chewing on that.

      as for your: ... is a scam to separate over-indulged yuppies

      I could not disagree more - the scam is to allow big polluters a back door by buying credits and not having to clean up the mess they are putting into the athmosphere.

    2. Re:All Hogwash! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      How you could possibly modded "interesting" is beyond me.
      Perhaps the guy was as misinformed as you are.

      Power companies don't sell " electricity generated by coal and atomic power stations as "green" " as you put it.
      Yes, there was e.on and its "mix it"-ad with the governator Schwarzenegger in 2001 or 2002 if I remember correctly, where one could "mix the sources", however this was forbidden shortly after, since they can't guarantee nor prove that the energy your house gets is the one you paid for, meaning, they can't prove that you're getting wind energy or solar energy or atomic energy, since there is only "one" power supply line system and all energy sources feed into this system.

      Also, the resources are there, but due to fluctuations in power consumption they don't produce enough,
      since you can't store electricity, thus energy sources from, say, France for example, feed into this system as well.
      Therefore you have another reason why you don't know where the energy is coming from.
      There is a whole energy market. Every country and every power company buys and sells energy from and to each other.
      These are the reasons why the "mix-it"-campaign was ruled illegal.

      This doesn't mean you can't buy renewable or "green" energy and consequently support the movement for a better environment, but you just can't be guaranteed that you get green energy.

      Your inane conspiracy theory and 1984 paranoia is pathetic.

    3. Re:All Hogwash! by inflamed · · Score: 1, Interesting

      How about this for a rationalization?

        Poorer people get leukemia more often due to unhealthier lifestyles. Poorer people are more likely to live near a nuclear power plant because richer people are less likely to live near one. The hatred of nuclear power is almost a universal characteristic these days.

      That said, I wouldn't mind having a home near a nuclear plant where the property values (and taxes) are low. If there is going to be an "incident," I really don't think a difference of a few dozen kilometers will really make a huge difference in my likelihood of surviving unharmed.

    4. Re:All Hogwash! by CajunArson · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Please present some actual evidence for everything you just said, and some conspiracy-nut eco-lobbying website does not count. I grew up in Pennsylvania, home of Three Mile Island. If you had been standing at the exhaust vent where the (minute) amount of radiation was released and had been intentionally trying to suck down everything from the accident, you would have received LESS radiation than if you had hidden out in your basement in Harrisburg for 3 months following the accident... you know why? Radon! There has never been anything even approaching evidence that this "accident" ever injured anyone, and that is the worst-case scenario of anything that GE has ever been involved int.

            If anything I'd say you are in on the scam and are trying to scare people into "saving the earth" by lining your own pocketbook while the US destroys its economy and China pollutes all it wants since somehow dirty coal burned in China is "green" but clean nuclear power in the US is terrible.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    5. Re:All Hogwash! by smilindog2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I found a relevant link. I live 17 miles from a power plant I firmly believe was the motivation for "The Simpsons", and I have two small children. At this distance, I suspect air pollution and stupidity at the plant are bigger health risks to my family.

      Here in NC, we poison ourselves in many different ways. I have some old gas in my garage because my boat-mechanic told me to just pour it on the ground when I asked where I could find his recycling bucket. That was 100m from a major reservoir. I got our hunting/fishing state guide and read that it's not safe to eat as much fish as I want from most of our rivers. Even though my electrical power nuclear, the air here is nearly toxic from up-wind coal plants. The funny thing is I'm pretty sure most of us are willing to pay to clean up the place, but it's just not anyone's job to do it.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    6. Re:All Hogwash! by alexhmit01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I could not disagree more - the scam is to allow big polluters a back door by buying credits and not having to clean up the mess they are putting into the athmosphere.

      Do you know what else is a scam? The fact that I can go to work, earn money, then pay the power company to generate my electricity instead of generating it myself. What you're calling a scam is the same use of trade that we use everyone else in the economy, and allows specialization and creation of wealth.

      Trade is the basis of a modern economy.

      If a coal plant would spend $10M/unit of carbon reduction, and the treatment of landfills costs $100K/unit of carbon reduction, would you really prefer a law that requires coal plants to reduce by one unit (costing $10M), instead of requiring them to offset ten units anywhere, which costs them $1M? The coal plant saves $9M, and the environmental impact is ten times greater.

      BTW: this process is how Al Gore was able to build a massive mansion, fly around on a private jet, yet claim a carbon-neutral lifestyle.

      The question is, is the goal a massive reduction in carbon emissions, or is the goal a pseudo morality issue of dealing with the "sin" of pollution?

  3. Self Off-Setting by oznog · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I'm sure there is a place for commercial and not for profit carbon offsetting I've never really understood while individuals, households, businesses etc don't self offset. What I mean is invest better technology. So instead of handing over hard-earned cash so someone can plant trees, why not put the money towards a solar system for your home, a new bike so you can ride to work, or put it aside so you can afford a more energy efficient fridge when the current one needs to be replaced.

  4. Sunday Creek Coal Mine - Ohio by Sanat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The water source for the Glouster, Ohio area is gotten from Burr Oak Lake which is man made here in the Appalachians. A dam was placed across a valley and made this huge lake.

    People would drive from 15 - 20 miles away with containers to gather the water for drinking because it was so pure.

    When the coal mine started producing coal approx 8 years ago all of the tailings would wash from Sunday creek area into the Lake and now it is dangerous to even drink the water because of all of the impurities.

    What did the coal company do about it? They bought some of these "free passes"

    So now that the coal mine is closed and another is now opened about 3 miles further up the road.

    And residences of Glouster, Trimble, Jacksonville, and Burr Oak now have tainted water for ever.

    The "Free Pass" is just the cost of doing business for the big companies and has nothing to do with the local residence to whom the coal company should feel responsible for fixing what they broke.

    --
    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
  5. Re:disgusting by onemorechip · · Score: 2, Interesting

    the surface area of its foliage for absorbing CO2

    Your conclusions are correct, but I don't know why you'd need to consider surface area at all. Ultimately, isn't it the amount of carbon sequestered directly proportional to the mass of the grown plant? I don't know what percentage of a tree is carbon, but if the tree weighs a ton you multiply that percentage by one ton, and you have the answer. Ignoring what are probably small differences in carbon percentage, I'd think a one-ton pine tree would sequester as much carbon as a one-ton oak tree, even with different foliage surface areas.

    --
    But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  6. Re:disgusting by OakLEE · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even with unlimited, clean energy, growth still leaves an environmental footprint. Increases in population demand more food, and more living space, both of which would involve expansion into unsettled habitats (e.g., cutting down the rain forests, developing grasslands).

    The Dark Greens, who would prefer to not see any this destruction of habitat occur. Unlimited energy however would make expansion into undeveloped habitats cheap, and therefore easier and more likely. Thus, as a sect of the environmental movement that primarily favors preserving undeveloped territory (over reducing pollution), Dark Greens by necessity would have to be opposed to finding cheap, clean, unlimited energy.

    I surmise that they would much rather see energy prices skyrocket, and no new sources be developed. This would necessitate a worldwide Powerdown scenario, which would effectively halt, if not at least dramatically slow, worldwide growth. Only after this state, would their vision of society be palpable to the masses. In a nutshell, they are eco-Marxists.

    --
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