IE8 May Not Pass the Acid2 Test After All

dotne writes "CNET has published an article called Acid2, Acid3 and the power of default. The article predicts that IE8 will not pass the Acid2 test after all: '[Another] scenario could be that Microsoft requires Web pages to change the default settings by flagging that they really, really want to be rendered correctly. Web pages already have a way to say this (called doctype switching, which is supported by all browsers), but Microsoft has all but announced that IE8 will support yet another scheme. If the company decides to implement the new scheme, the Acid2 test — and all the other pages that use doctype switching — will not be rendered correctly.' Microsoft's IE8 render modes have been discussed here previously, and they've caused an uproar in the web development community. According to the scheme, authors must put Microsoft-specific <meta> tags into their pages in order for them to be rendered correctly. I doubt Acid2, nor Acid3 will have Microsoft extensions in them."

Comments

Page specific tuning

[mini me]

It's possible that IE8 will contain code that detects the presence of an ACID test and switches to the proper renderer to pass the test.

Re:Page specific tuning

[ozamosi]

The author of Acid2/3 is not amused by this meta tag. From the tone of that blog post, to me it sounds like he wouldn't shy away from actively try to break a mechanism like that by changing the URI to make sure that the browser that passes the Acid test actually does so for real.

Note, though, that he doesn't say that explicitly, and you shouldn't assume that he will. It's my own conclusion, and you should draw your own, etc...

Re:Page specific tuning

[timster]

Forgive me if I'm wrong (as I'm not an HTML guru in the least) but isn't that the point of DOCTYPE? Meaning, if a broken page wants to use the buggy renderer they shouldn't be setting a strict DOCTYPE.

Microsoft is so committed to their long-standing policy of coddling the incompetent that they want a way to be lax on pages that specifically request a strict interpretation.

Re:Page specific tuning

[KevMar]

The issue is that IE6 allowed people to use the strict rendering with out truly strictly rendering stuff. When IE7 was released that was more strict, it broke a lot of pages that assumed that strict worked because IE6 worked.

They already corupted the doctype tag. The logic behind the new tag is to indicate the renderer you want so future releases do not break the current page.

They dont want to break the web again (like IE7 did). So the web will work by default (as defined by IE 6) and new stuff that targets the new browser should not break when IE 9 is released.

They are attempting to end a cycle of new browsers breaking older pages.

What they need to do is do it right the first time and fix rendering bugs quickly. force people to fallow the standard and it will work. Microsoft should be the most accurate implementers of the specs because they have such a huge install base.

Re:Page specific tuning

[S.O.B.]

Here, let me fix that for you:

They are attempting to end a cycle of new Microsoft browsers breaking older pages.

Opera, Mozilla/Firefox don't have this problem so why should Microsoft. By adding a tag that specifies the browser it makes the page browser specific and since we are talking IE it is now OS specific .

Sure a web developer could code other browsers in the tag but it will be ignored by other browsers because other browsers already follow standards and don't require the hint. The metatag might as well be called "IEVersion(tm)" because that's what it is. Once again, Microsoft is trying to make a standard Microsoft specific because they are too stupid, lazy or ignorant to implement what everyone else on the planet has agreed to.

Microsoft has no intention of ever being the "most accurate implementors of the specs" because they have no incentive. Implementing a standard does not make Microsoft more money, tying people to Microsoft products does.

The tag gives Microsoft a get out of jail free card so they don't have to follow standards ever again. Using the tag only reinforces their behaviour.

Amazing

[idontgno]

Another Microsoft "We'll do it our way, and you'll do it our way too if you know what's good for you."

I wish Microsoft would at least learn to fake sincerity in actually following common standards. This isn't even lip service. This is "We follow standards (for certain Microsoft-centric values of 'standards')."

Of course, the market has rewarded them, so why should they change? All they need is smoke, some mirrors, and some moderately-skilled PR, et Voilà! "standards-compliant!"

Make Acid2 the Default

[Ohio Calvinist]

Why not make Acid2 the default? I'm sure the browsers interals could look for IE6/7 "hacks" and provide a icon on the bottom to have it viewed in compatibility mode? If the broken mode is going to be the default, I think standardization will be slow, unless common developer tools like MS Visual Studio and Dreamweaver put in the MS Specfic renderer tags in by default.

I think we're at the moment when developers want standards, where in the IE4/NS4 war, everyone and their brother was trying to hack-together web pages, and IE did some nice exposition of the DOM via the ID attribute in tags, which accomodated less-skilled programmers. Now that the baseline-developer's skills are improved, and the IDEs out there are actually pretty decent (e.g. Not FrontPage, Not MS Word) I'd say the time is right.

While the Acid2 test is niceity, what I'd really love to see is a standard plugin model shared by FF and IE. It has been a while, but I always thought the "EMBED" inside of an "OBJECT" tag was lame. I don't like ActiveX but I get in intranet environments where it can be useful, where the code should be "trusted" and "signed", where you're essentially using a browser to "publish" applications that should probably be desktop applets, or use a native HTML (AJAX?) interface rather than "VB applet on a webpage." That being said, we need an out in the wild, "safe" plugin/viewer model.

Re:Make Acid2 the Default

[alexgieg]

Why not make Acid2 the default?

Because lots and lots and LOTS of pages would break, among other things. Earlier today there was another article in ./ with a link to the full rationale behind this, and to me is makes a lot of sense. Basically, with this tag you can specify a version for each browser on which the site was tested and is known to work well, then all browsers might keep internally working versions of their legacy rendering engines (or a compatibility mode built in their newest engine, whatever works best in each case), and forever in future you'd have old sites being 100% readable in new browsers, no matter how much actually existing "de facto" and "official" standards change or get deprecated/replaced over time. An example from the above link, specifying the page renders correctly in IE 8's engine, Firefox 3's engine and (say) Opera 4's engine:

<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=8;FF=3;OtherUA=4" />

What is there to not like in this? It's a simple, elegant and practical solution to this very real problem. Sure, it could have arrived earlier, but better later than never.

Re:Make Acid2 the Default

[samkass]

It's a simple, elegant and practical solution to this very real problem.

It's a problem, though, that only Microsoft has. Everyone else is just expected to conform to the standards.

Read here for the WebKit team's response to this and why they're not going to define or obey any such tags themselves.

Re:Make Acid2 the Default

[TheMCP]

What is there to not like in this? It's a simple, elegant and practical solution to this very real problem.

First of all, I've been working in software long enough to know that I can't trust it for a minute. Oh sure, they may say they're going to maintain all these special compatibility modes, but in reality one or more of the major browsers won't do it, or they'll try but they'll screw it up, or they'll do it for a while and then suddenly drop all the backwards compatibility stuff because they don't feel like maintaining it any more. Regardless, eventually it will come to pass that I can't trust the version specifying mechanism to do me any good, and I'll have to update my pages anyway.

Secondly, it encourages the web to come to a halt, technology wise. As an expensive consultant to big companies, my experience has been that they all want to try to tell you "our web site has to look perfect on every version of every browser ever invented, period." Of course that's impossible, so once I drill it through their head that it's impossible, they have to settle for some major subset, at which time they always want me to use ancient UI technology for maximum compatibility. (Seriously, I deal with people who freak out if I want to use CSS positioning or an iframe, and god help me if I mention AJAX.) If they got the idea that browsers have a magical compatibility mode so that all future browsers will support pages written for today's browsers, they'll instantly write up a corporate policy that basically says that nothing will ever change again and for the rest of time their web site will be maintained as if it is forever 2005, and then they won't change it until someone practically holds a gun to their head to force them to.

Now, you're asking yourself, why should you care? Because it's more than a few idiots, it's a substantial portion of the web. Sure, there will always be little guys who will come along and innovate, but do you really want to deal with a web full of sites that forever use 2005 technology and just a few sites that have caught on to the latest stuff?

IDGI

[the_B0fh]

I don't get it. Why is there such an issue. As a dominant software company, Microsoft should be allowed to do what it wants. After all, what is best for Microsoft is also the best for America.

Therefore, if you are against Microsoft, you must be a terrorist.

Please report yourself to the nearest detention center for correction.

Re:It's the most logical decision

[ushering05401]

On a purely philosophical point... what is the use of having an international standard if the said standard changes based on the whims of a single corporation?

I get your point, and you may have a more real-world-ready opinion than some of us, but I am not ready to concede anything to MS in this regard.

There are other ways MS could address this issue rather than continuing their embrace extend destroy strategies. There is no reason IE specific tags should be required to make a page display according to an international standard.

If anything, broken pages should require tags to inform the browser that they do not conform to standards, and thus require special attention - not the other way around.

Re:It's the most logical decision

[PJ1216]

That ACID(2,3) tests are designed to test browsers, browsers are not designed to test ACID. As such, ACID should be updated to include the new doctype option for IE. So, if I take a test and don't pass it, the test should update itself to include my wrong answers?
ACID is designed to test a browser's adherence to a set standard. Its not designed to just 'test' a browser to see if it works. It's designed to see if it works the way a browser should. I say break the millions of web-pages and force them to get updated.

Re:Class action suit?

[jesuscyborg]

Businesses can do as they please, but consumers can always vote with their browsers.

Yes, consumers can "vote with their browsers" by choosing to use the ones that support all the awesome capabilities described in W3 standards! You know, those features that no website utilizes because IE doesn't support them.

New standards don't mean anything if no one uses them. A non-developer switching to a browser like Firefox simply because it "supports standards" would be like buying a high definition television fifteen years ago; you're still getting the same quality broadcasts.

W3 standards don't catch on because they're not intended for the end-user, they're intended for developers. End-users don't care that the columns on your website were coded in CSS rather than a table. If you want people to switch to a more developer friendly browser, you have to give 'em the old razzle dazzle. For example, let's say Macromedia Flash was introduced later in the game, relied on a W3C standard instead of a browser plugin, and that standard was only supported by non-IE browsers. Developers would be so anxious to use Flash that they would leave IE users in the dust, encouraging them to switch if they wanted to see the fancy dynamic content. IE users would then feel left out and switch to Firefox, which would end up with a 70% market share before Microsoft could even blink.