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Supreme Court Won't Hear ACLU Wiretap Case

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "The US Supreme Court refused without comment the ACLU's appeal of a lower court ruling that prevented them from suing over the government's warrantless TSP program. The problem was a Catch-22: they lack legal 'standing' to sue over it because they can't prove that they were suspected terrorists, but neither can they find out who was actually suspected, because this is a matter of national security." Update: 02/20 00:17 GMT by KD : Removed an incorrect statement after a reader pointed out that, with the expiration of the Protect America Act this weekend, foreign surveillance will revert to oversight by the FISA court.

12 of 323 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Far too much power by moderatorrater · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As demonstrated by their refusal to use it? The Supreme Court is probably the most easily abused of the three branches, it's true, but you've got to remember that there are still checks and balances. The president can refuse to execute a ruling (technically it's illegal, but it's been done), Congress can rewrite the law in a way that gets around the ruling, and they can even start the process of amending the constitution.

    Looking from a purely constitutional perspective, the supreme court is also the branch that has abused its power the least imho. Congress routinely enacts laws that are only constitutional if justified by the "general welfare" clause of the preamble, not any part of the actual constitution. The president can send troops anywhere to fight that he wants without a declaration of war, and this president has outright ignored several parts of the constitution.

    So, while I am a strong believer that the supreme court has had its share of overreaching rulings that weren't strictly constitutional, I think that pales in comparison to the abuses that the other branches have managed to pull off.

  2. Re:What was that again? by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Those boxes you use to defend your freedom, we've already failed on soap, ballot, and jury.

    Damn, and I'm out of practice on the last one.

  3. Before the Law by paulthomas · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Recommended reading: Kafka's Before The Law Between this and secret laws for security checkpoints at airports, Kafka's absurd vignette is looking looking unsettlingly normal.

  4. Re:What did you expect? by grahamd0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That hand doesn't feed them. They serve for life. The president has no political power over sitting justices. They ARE loyal cronies, but that won't change with administrations.

  5. Re:Far too much power by DaHat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    > the supreme court is also the branch that has abused its power the least

    Really? You should double check the Constitution with regards to the enumerated powers (you know, what the 10th amendment discusses) of SCOTUS... in fact they are the ones (not the constitution) that declared themselves the supreme arbiter of the constitution (see Marbury v. Madison).

    Technically speaking... the scope of power SCOTUS has is in of itself unconstitutional... problem is that as things have evolved... in order to change things back... we'd either need a SCOTUS ruling (of them giving up their power) or a constitutional amendment... which could still in theory be ignored by them (see cases of how they have ignored the 10th amendment).

  6. Re:Far too much power by rpillala · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In Free Lunch, David Cay Johnston notes a trend in limiting access to the courts. In this way, If someone somewhere doesn't want a case to be heard, they just have to buy a little influence and can claim a legitimate victory. Note the reason the courts dismissed ACLU's earlier efforts in this line: only persons under surveillance have standing to sue, and the nature of the program is such that you're not allowed to know that you're under surveillance. That is, if you can prove that you have standing, you can be imprisoned. If you can prove that someone else has standing, you can be imprisoned.

    In the book, Johnston details one case of a couple who owned an auto repair business in a spot where (I think) Jeep wanted green space for its factory complex. You can guess whose complaint was thrown out. These days it seems like there are only checks and balances when they're backed up by personal relationships or bullying. Note the number of subpoenas the white house has simply ignored.

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    When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
  7. Re:What did you expect? by ptbarnett · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some of these guys are hand-picked by the very same administration, did you expect these shrewd men and women to bite the very hand that feeds them? Don't expect any real change unless there are fundamental changes to the whole administrative.

    This particular legal doctrine has nothing to do with the Bush administration. Despite the Catch-22 of "lack of standing", it's used quite often. Courts have been avoiding Second Amendment challenges for decades, using the same rationale.

    A writ of certiorari requires only four votes among the nine Supreme Court justices. Four justices: Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer, are generally thought of as the Court's liberal wing. If they felt strongly about this case, they could have voted to do so.

  8. Re:Far too much power by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Really? You should double check the Constitution with regards to the enumerated powers (you know, what the 10th amendment discusses) of SCOTUS... in fact they are the ones (not the constitution) that declared themselves the supreme arbiter of the constitution (see Marbury v. Madison).

    How you figure? The Constitution itself states that the Judicial branch shall have jurisdiction over all cases arising under the Law of the U.S. and the Constitution. Marbury v Madison was just a case where a Law passed by Congress conflicted with the Constitution -- and again, it is clear from the Constitution that in such a case, the Constitution wins. That case may have formalized the notion of "Judicial Review", but the principle itself is quite Constitutional.

    Oh and by the way, the statute which the Court ruled in Marbury v Madison to be Unconstitutional was one which increased the Court's power. It's kind of hard to call this a power grab when the executed their Constitutional power to judge a case under the law in order to reject an Unconstitutional increase in power.

    see cases of how they have ignored the 10th amendment

    True enough, everyone pretty much ignores the 9th and 10th. But it's worth pointing out that they ignore this ammendment by not finding a law passed by Congress to be in conflict with the 10th, and thus Unconstitutional. How exactly would they do this if not via Judicial Review as established via Marbury v Madison?

    In other words this is a case of the Judicial Branch abusing their powers by under-utilizing them, resulting in an increase in power of the other two branches.

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  9. Re:Far too much power by Money+for+Nothin' · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Congress routinely enacts laws that are only constitutional if justified by the "general welfare" clause of the preamble, not any part of the actual constitution.

    Note, of course, that the "general welfare" clause was not intended to permit unrestrained growth of government services for whatever vaguely-collective reason Congresspeople might concoct in the service's defense. The "general welfare" clause was not intended to permit galloping socialism.

    At least, that's true according to James Madison in Federalist 41. Alexander Hamilton, OTOH, took the broader view that Congress may spend as it sees fit, so long as it doesn't favor a particular party.

    Of course, even according to Hamilton's relatively-leftist, pro-government position, expenses to pay for, say, private military contractors, farm subsidies (which mostly go to the largest 20% of farms, often owned by e.g. Tyson Foods), welfare checks for the poor, (benefiting a subset of the population is not necessarily a benefit to the whole population. This doesn't make welfare a bad idea (though its implementations thus-far have ranged from moderately-useful at best (e.g. the EITC), and idiotic at worst) - merely, it conflicts with the way the U.S. Constitution both stands and as was intended by its authors), etc. would, I suspect, be invalid reasons for government spending.

    Luckily for American Congresspeople, the majority of the American public has neither read the Constitution or Bill of Rights, nor has been asked to think hard about those documents -- we can thank the public education that the Dept. of Education tries to manage -- and the 20% or so who might have given them more than a passing thought tend neither to abide by those documents nor care about their intent. Combined with incentives to ignore the meaning of the highest law of the land, Congresspeople thus trample the documents they are supposed to uphold...
  10. Re:In other words by jmauro · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Nope, the pot stamp laws are still on the books and enforced in many states. It's easier to prosecute someone for tax evasion then pot dealing so they're kept around. The drug scheduling was developed to harminoze and simplify the laws on the books at the time of passage, not due to any overturned laws by the Supreme court.

  11. Simple way out of catch-22 by sigmabody · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a pretty simple way out of the catch, although it would be hard to do and potentially open pandora's box: have Congress pass a law which allows legal challenges to the Constitutionality of laws and actions without having to show actual damages. The only reason it's a problem now is because of the technicalities of the laws, which could easily be remedied.

    On the other hand, good luck in getting Congress to do something as blatantly beneficial for the country as that...

  12. Re:Far too much power by servognome · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Oh and by the way, the statute which the Court ruled in Marbury v Madison to be Unconstitutional was one which increased the Court's power. It's kind of hard to call this a power grab when the executed their Constitutional power to judge a case under the law in order to reject an Unconstitutional increase in power.
    Like most other power grabs, it was done in an covert manner. By rejecting the law, the Court appointed itself ultimate arbitor of Constitutionality which is not an expressly enumerated power. It's just like the Interstate Commerce Clause and "take care that the laws be faithfully executed," powergrabs by the legislative & executive branches, not specifically stated but arguably in keeping with the spirit of the Constitution.

    In other words this is a case of the Judicial Branch abusing their powers by under-utilizing them, resulting in an increase in power of the other two branches.
    No it decreased the power of the other two branches, because they can only act with the approval of the Judicial Branch - not striking down a law is a tacit approval. To play devil's advocate - why can't the President serve as an arbitor of Constitutionality by rejecting the execution of a law?
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