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How Do You Find Programming Superstars?
Joe Ganley writes "You are a programming superstar, and you are looking for work. I recognize this happens relatively rarely, which is part of my problem. But stipulating that it happens, how do I, as a company looking to hire such people, connect with them? Put another way, how do you the programming superstar go about looking for a company that seems like one you'd like to work for? The company I work for is a great place to work; we only hire really great people, we work on hard, interesting problems, and we treat our employees well. We aren't worried about retention or even about how to entice people to work here once we've found them. The problem is simply finding them. The signal-to-noise ratio of the big places like Monster and Dice is terrible. We've had much better luck with (for example) the Joel on Software job boards, but that still doesn't generate enough volume." What methods have other people used to find the truly elite?
I'm right here.
Be Google.
The first thing to do is remove arbitrary barriers. IE, "must" have X years of experience, X degree, held X previous positions, must move to our area. That's the sum of major mistakes most operations make. The best programmers in the world don't typically get that way by being just another college / job drone (though some do... just don't slam the door based on mundane requirements - you want the problem solved, not a title you can be proud of.)
Secondly, market the job — make sure people can find out about it. That's perhaps obvious, but I know a lot of companies that try to stick to the back alleys of old boy's clubs, and it's no wonder they can't find anyone. Put an ad, a BIG one, somewhere programmers go a lot. Like slashdot. :-)
Third, salary, salary, salary, and benefits (particularly insurance and family coverage). Move 'em if you have to. We've even bought houses outright for our programming team members. You can't expect to hire a superstar by treating them like a drone.
The problem is almost always that really good programmers don't have to go looking, and if they do, they can - and will - turn their noses up at being treated like a commodity. Yet that's just what most companies do. Plus they throw up arbitrary and unrelated barriers to entry. Unfathomable, really.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Stop calling expert programmers "superstars".
End of lesson. You may press the button.
to their obvious sense of humility, and only ask for mere "stars".
That, or go trawling through the strip-clubs near Boston.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
You can't have both quality and quantity. Searching for the best of the best is bound to return a small number of people.
Unfortunately, software development is one of those things where you can only judge talent if you have talent.
:-), do you use any open source projects? Interview those guys. Open source is a great way to get to know someone -- you can review their code and documentation, and you also know that programming is something they love. People who are involved in open source typically love programming (otherwise, why do it?).
Assuming you already have a couple good guys on staff (but how do you know they are good?
(Dodges ballistic vegetable matter)
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
My suggestion would be to use a headhunter, sure they are expensive but you get matched up with quality people that match your business philosophy. Also to you job seekers out there I would suggest finding and hitting up Head Hunters. I have had extrordinary success with em on both sides of the table.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
You have found me. How much is my salary?
Honestly - imo, you are incredibly fortunate to hire excellent experienced people based off interviews (our hit rate is about 25% good, 50% passable, 25% poor)
the 2 best strategies for having a high hit rate with your new hires:
1. hire young - bring people in as interns/coops and use their term as a 6 month interview - this can give you a great insight into their potential
2. poach - has anyone else in your organization worked somewhere else? find out if there are any excellent people from previous jobs looking for work
I would say in 3 ways. One, stop calling them superstars. To a programmer, the world superstar implies massive overtime with little compensation (aka we want someone who loves programming so much that they won't worry about the fact that we under pay them and over work them). Two, do some research on job requirements. Don't list idiotic buzz words as requirements when the package is something a programmer could pick up in less that a day working with it. The best way to get people to completely glaze over your job posting is to list so many technologies that they are bound to be missing one or two. Third, treat them and pay them what they are worth. If you want a superstar programmer, be willing to pony up. I read something a few days ago here on Slashdot that said Facebook and Google were competing for new grads and offering salaries in excess of 110K to new grads. If that's the treatment those companies give them, what do you think someone with experience and "superstar" status probably thinks they deserve? If you can't give them the money, make up for it with benefits and ability to progress or become a partner in the company...Bottom line, be realistic, and they will take you seriously. A programmer can detect a job that will probably be bad from a mile away just by reading the description.
Seriously, why do you need a programming superstar, why not settle for a programmer with substantial experience in the area you need?
For example, universities do not look for supergenius professors (if not only for label "Nobel prize winner"), they are mostly looking for a person who will be able to get grants
Supergeniuses are good in the environment that does not require any results any soon. That's the way they work.
Normally people are looking for good workers with a good experience able to fit in the environment.
I am actually glad that in my line of work there is no obsession with top level performers, like it happens in showbiz. As a result a lot of people are paid quite well.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
believe me , nothing your business is doing is so god-damned special that it takes a "superstar" to accomplish. Just find some people with some programing background and give them the opportunity to learn and grow. Anyway, the person asking of this question, if _they_ were a "superstar" HR person/manager, would already know the answer. Since the company can get by with plain old average HR/management I think it can live with average normal programmers as well.
While you can market to wazoo, and you should, following the advice of others, here, you'll always only be half right, because talented people first and foremost recruit other talented people and solicit other talented people for work.
So go to the experts at your current job, the people you REALLY respect, and ask them if they know someone. If they say no, then they're probably LYING, and you just don't have enough to draw their friends. Try to find out why, and fix that. Then those same people you asked will begin suggesting people.
If you don't have experts at your company, cast your web out to all the experts you know, and offer to pay people what they're worth. You may have to pay enough to relocate someone. That can get expensive. Say you'll do it.
This is in conjunction with the advertising of the job, not in lieu of it.
...and be prepared to hire telecommuters, even in other countries. All of our software guys at Slim Devices (now Logitech) found us through our open source projects, and to this day every one of the telecommutes. The stratum of talent you gain access to when you are reaching the people who are so excited about the technology that they'll work on it on their own time.... unbelievable - forget about Monster.com, this is the way to do it!
Wouldn't that be sort?
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
Real programming superstars, usually love coding so much they take precautions so that they are not accidentally promoted to have management responsibilities like tracking vacation requests and authorizing the expense accounts. So they make sure their belts don't match their shoes, their pants, if and when they wear it, are never ironed. If they are forced to wear ties, they pair it with half sleeved shirts. They are the the programming superstars. But be prepared for huge number of false positives.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
You cannot HR the superstar. They are so rare, that you just cannot open a superstar position and expect it to be filled up. Instead, what people usually do is when they accidentally stumble upon one, they create a superstar position for him.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I've met very few superstars and this more than anything else set them apart as someone I would want on my payroll.
You want people who can lead by example, without even trying.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I find you....
Seriously.
I haven't had to 'look' for a job (i.e. interview with more than one company) since the early 90s. I have a network, and if I want to change jobs, I ask the people I respect the most (and who I think have respect for me) if there is anything out there. (Changed job 5 times due to corporate changes such as mergers, acquisitions and startup failures.) Usually my income went up, but I took a cut in pay for the last one because the company appears to be that much fun to work for.
People who are truly superstars are probably working at a job they like and you won't be able to budge them *unless* you have an open pocketbook or something 'Google-like' that would appeal to someone who can get a job anywhere. Or something has changed (or their patience has just run out) and in a month or two will have another one through people they already know.
My suggestion is if you want a superstar, start networking with the people YOU know and respect the most. Maybe your network and a prospective employee's network will connect somewhere. That's how I got this one. A guy I know knew about this job and let me know about it because he thought it was something I would be interested in and knew that my company was going through an acquisition and thought I might be looking.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
You assume companies want the typical slashdot poster. The truth is that people here are often opinionated, brash, and hostile to ideas they dislike. While many of them may fit the role of "good coder," they often miss the bigger picture of what it is to be a "good programmer."
As you said, good programmers work well in teams. They're open to suggestions, and only butt heads on issues when not to do so would be negligent. What happens when the candidate being interviewed is told "we'll be working in windows vista, using visual studio 2008?" Do they throw a hissy fit, and constantly complain about how the shortcomings of the windows environment could be improved by moving to linux? This attitude, which seems to be fostered and even encouraged here at slashdot, would be devastating in the work environment.
I think the only real way to find superstar programmers is, realistically, to find good programmers and lots of them, through various recruiting drives (temp work, contractor work, college co-ops/interns). When the term of their employment is up, you'll have a much better idea of how they are as a programmer, something that is relatively hard to do during an interview. From here, you'll have a resource pool to say "look, you're awesome, we'd like to hire you." This avoids the problem of missing the amazing programmer because they only looked "good" on paper, and it also gives a pool to draw "great" programmers from (even if no superstars are found).
Convey to the applicant that your company values *production* and *problem solving* over meetings, phone calls, "strategy" and any of the other abstract "big picture" bullsh*t that people with "soft skills" use to justify their positions at the expense of programmers. Bonus points if you can point to a programmer or two in your organization and demonstrate that they make more money and are more valued than the softies. Let the applicant know that "Yes, we expect you to function within our management framework, but that framework is here to help you be *more* productive"...every good programmer dreads the "Office Space" scenario where they are spending more time filling out TPS reports than doing the work that they love.
Every good programmer's worst nightmare is to step into a new job bright-eyed and ready to be creative, only to be told that their function will be to learn and maintain a piece-of-crap monstrosity that someone else created. Make it crystal clear that this is not the situation they are being hired into.
...as far as "where to find them"...The same principle that applies to "getting hired" (i.e. networking is always the best) also applies to hiring. Ask your five best programmers to give you the names of some of their friends and don't be afraid to aggressively go after them and lure them away from their current gig.
The place I work has some top people working there. It also had one of the strangest interviews I ever did. I was barely asked about programming or anything related to my job. Just pointed to an engineering diagram of a chemical plant and asked how I'd tackle it. I'd never done chemistry and didn't understand the diagram, so I figured I was probably failing the interview. Another poster mentioned the difference between top grade programmers, and the real superstars that actually get things done. I think this was the type of question that was really aimed at separating those types of people. It was a question you didn't have to get 'right' - it was just to find out what you'd do to figure out how to figure out the answer.
Looking for a job straight out of uni, I did a lot of interviews heavy on the technical side. Looking back, I'm not sure what the point was. They could already see how good I was at technical learning from my degree. The major difference between programming academically vs industry always seems to me to be that in industry you're programming for users other than yourself. In most academic situations you've got fairly clear user requirements of what the software must do. Most of the work I have done since then has begun with vague ideas about what the system needs to accomplish. Getting from there to coding a system that meets the requirements is very much like that question in the interview - 'how would you tackle it?'.
Any technical questions will allow any good programmer to just fall back into answers they know. You'll be swamped with applicants who look good but are only mediocre.
A 'superstar' programmer will find the job he wants with the salary he desires and get that job. A local company is well known for finding top flight programmers. They held a $10,000 programming deathmatch challenge. The winner got the cash prize, and a job offer. Guess what, they were extreamly successful.
http://mozy.com/contest
What you have to be prepared for is the unexpected winner:
http://uphpu.org/pipermail/uphpu/2006-November/005608.html
It was so succesful they did a second take, check here for sample questions:
http://mozy.com/contest
The first part of this is going to sound antagonistic, but its meant to be helpful.
Are you a superstar company? Really? What product do you work on? Is it cutting edge/interesting/socially minded? Is it going to present a new challenge every day for your programmers?
How top-heavy is your company? Are the salaries of the managers 3x more than the programmers? How about the top-level execs? Are they getting $1.5M bonuses every year while solving no problems themselves? Do their salaries go up 12% every year while programmers get 2% raises? Do the execs get their own parking spaces while the programmers have to park on the street? Is the disparity noticeable and constantly rubbed in the face of your programmers? Do the execs act snooty and drive $60,000 dollar cars? If these qualities apply to your company, there is no hope. If not, read on.
People who can really solve tough problems (i.e. "superstars") know who they are. Their minds don't work linearly and they see patterns in everything. They make suggestions and observations only to get ridiculed because the small minds around them can't understand what they are saying. But they usually get vindicated:
The unfortunate thing is that superstars, as you call them, experience this pattern again and again. You need to recognize that this pattern is common for them. You need to cater to their intellectual needs, make sure they are payed well, and, yes, appeal to their egos. This doesn't mean a constant suck-up, which is a common misconception. You need to give your damn best to understand what they are saying, to understand that their insight might be better than yours and to recognize that they have shown insight through a solid record of achievement. Superstars are players and not coaches (i.e. cheerleaders) and they can point to success, but you don't need to acknowledge it directly. If you want to employ them, you need to show that you can be student instead of master, because superstars are also teachers.
I know that that last one is going to hurt, especially in the hierarchical realm of corporate politics. However, your ability to be a student of your employees will separate you from mere mediocre employers and will get you those superstars you want so badly.
Just callin' it like I see it.
There's a vast pool of trapped talent in rural areas in the U.S..
As an example, I spent most of my life stuck in Southeast Idaho. There's a surprisingly large geek population there, but not a lot of employment for them. Generally people wind up stuck in low-paying dead-end jobs doing whatever they can (first tier phone tech support at the call centers that constitute the majority of non-agricultural employment, or as IT for a cash-strapped school district that is distrustful of the internet for religious reasons).
Because you are living paycheck to paycheck, you don't have the ability to relocate yourself with the funding necessary to find a job somewhere better. The majority of escapees (including myself) that I know of actually LIED on their resume and put a friend's address on it in a more lucrative market, and then lived homeless/couchsurfed/hitchhiked in order to get to interviews. It takes a lot of guts to throw caution to the wind and do that, and there's so much potential talent out there that could be snagged if employers would just reach out and find people and offer an escape that doesn't involve so much uncertainty.
Most people within 20 miles of Silicon Valley/NoVa tech corridor, etc. have the physical support infrastructure to get a job already. The hidden gems will be found in places where geeks don't have that option. The best places to look are population 25k-75k towns which don't have a major metro area within a 150 mile radius, and a depressed economy that precludes local employment providing enough income for geeks to self-finance a move to the high-cost-of-living of a tech hub.
Actually, I did that a lot when I first got hired at my current company. I flunked a round of interviews partially because of my hot-headed attitude and MS bashing.
I did a 2nd round with a different group and kept the rhetoric to a minimum. But once I was in, I turned on the flame-thrower again. "I can't beleive you put up with this crap -- pine and sendmail will service 25,000 mailboxes on a 1 proc machine", etc. I would constantly compare the lame MS experience to some F/OSS experience. This was back in the 2000-2001 time frame. Was it annoying? yes. Did people listen to me? Yes. Did we switch to f/oss software? No. Did a lot of the software we used to do our jobs get better? Yes.
The company I did this at?
Microsoft.
I'm a Microsoft Employee, and I'm a QA engineer (tools & automation developer). You had better beleive that when one of us says "F/OSS kicks our ass at this", people here eventually notice and try to remedy the problem. (Clearly, there's great job security here
I agree with the generalities of your point. You need to pick and choose your battles. But one thing I'll say is -- if you're frustrated that MS products are so (in your opinion) inferior to some F/OSS (or any competing offering) product, MS is a great place to work. We take competition very seriously, and we need more people that are used to not rebooting, apps not taking down more than they need to, user separation, simple tools that are efficient and single-purposed, etc, to help us make better software. When I joined, there wasn't a linux compete team, a compatibility lab, etc etc. Now we have all of those things and there are people who actually study where we don't measure up.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
be prepared for answers that make you think.
I did-like the riddle portion of an interview. Often given by people who thuink that are good at riddles.
Example you responses I have given":
"How man quarters would it take to fill this room"
4 (I had to explain this answer at the end of the interview. )
"How would you move MT. Fuji"
"Am I going to work at Microsoft?"
alternate answers:
"Hire David Copperfield"(This gets a laugh)
"Convince the boss guy who sold that project to fire his sales team"
"Spec out the task, come up with a rough number, 500 Billion, after it is about 'half way through' Use the "Managed 500 Billion dollar project" on my resume to get a higher paying job somewhere else.
Yes, I know the answer there looking for, but really who doesn't?
I just remembered one that really pissed off the person interviewing:
I can't believe I ahd forgotten theis.
You have a farmer and chiken and a fox, only two of which can cross the river, but the chicken and fox can't be together without the farms.
I picked up the phone, hit speaker, called a buddy of mine and had him put on his 9 year old son, who I repeated the question to and he answer in about 30 seconds
My friend and his wife where laughing hysterically.
After which I hung up, told them this was a great interview now I know for sure I never want to work here, and left.
The word "Livid" comes to mind when thinking of there reaction. speechless would be another.
One guy was literally sputtering....ah good times.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"We get brilliant results from average people managing brilliant processes. We observe that our competitors often get average (or worse) results from brilliant people managing broken processes." - Toyota
Some people are simply not up to the job of being a programmer. They cut corners and ignore good design in order to get the project done real quick. It may seem like they're getting the work done, and maybe they are, but crap code piles up. It takes time to work out the bugs. Over time it'll build up so much that it wouldn't even occur to people to refactor it.
I've worked with people like this. No matter how much you try to encourage them to follow good design, they will continue to just ignore all good sense. A typical example is a former coworker of mine who was asked to make a small change to an app that sent out email notifications. He needed to make a slight change to take care of one particular circumstance, so he copied an entire class (hundreds of lines of code) and changed exactly one line to do what he wanted.
When this code later broke (due to that single line) we asked him about it and he denied even writing it. We looked at source control and it was definitely him. (This in itself was surprising because he often deployed changes without checking in code. We tried many times to tell him never to do that.) I asked him why he had copied an entire class just to change one line when it was trivially easy to modify the class to handle both situations. He said he just wanted to get it done. I told him it probably took him longer to do it the way he did it. He just shrugged.
How do you respond to someone like that? I'm sorry, but he will never be a good programmer. Some people just don't have it in them. He was a very nice guy, but he was a terrible programmer.
Thankfully, most of my coworkers do have it in them. I've been privileged to work with some great people. But it's pure fantasy to think that everyone is capable of being a decent programmer.
Cow Cube