Slashdot Mirror


The Law and Politics of Battlestar Galactica

privacyprof writes "Fans of the show Battlestar Galactica might be interested in our interview with writers and producers Ron Moore and David Eick. Three law professors at the blog Concurring Opinions have an hour-long interview with Moore and Eick about the legal, political, moral, and economic issues raised by the show. The interview is available in audio files; alternatively, people can read a transcript of the interview (Part I) and (Parts II and III). Part I examines the lawyers and trials in the show, how torture is depicted, as well as how the humans must balance civil liberties and security. Part II examines politics and commerce. It explores how the cylon attack affected the humans' political system, and it examines how commerce works in the fleet. Part III examines issues related to cylons, such as the humans' treatment of cylons, how robots should be treated by the law, how the cylons govern themselves politically."

13 of 321 comments (clear)

  1. it's interesting to see by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    people seeing a need for balance on these issues in the abstract

    but in real life, i bet a lot of these people who see a need for balance turn into kneejerk privacy fundamentalists or kneejerk security fundamentalists

    there are limits on everything folks, even [insert principle you hold most dear]

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:it's interesting to see by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm constantly frustrated by these exact issues on battlestar galactica. When the workers rebel in a classic Marx revolution, the stupid president just brushes them off, and never really addresses their concerns.. somehow the problem just sort of goes away and the workers happily go back to working dangerous, repetitive jobs 16 hours a day, every day for years with no weekends. Mhm. Also I hate how they constantly abuse the cylons.. I mean yeah they're the enemy but they're obviously intelligent and sentient and they're not even given basic human rights. A Six is currently shackled to the floor in one of their small cells. The humans call the cylons obscene caricatures of real people and refer to them as "mechanical" and "machines"... they're entirely biological and indistinguishable from humans, at least some of them. There's some serious xenophobia going on here and it's hard not to sympathize with the cylons, especially the Six is custody who's constantly told that she's a worthless pile of bolts.. that must be causing some serious psychological damage, and I can't help but keep that abuse in mind when watching the "light" parts of the episodes.. as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

    2. Re:it's interesting to see by Comboman · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The humans on BSG are deeply religious and believe that humanity is defined by a Gods-given soul, which a man-made machine cannot have - it's a pretty major part of the show, if a little unsubtle.

      I'd have to disagree slightly with that assessment. Most humans on BSG (at least the ones the show centers around) only show a token devotion to their Gods (if at all). Baltar is an atheist (at least at the start) as is Adama (he thinks Earth is a myth). Rosalind is a believer but is not above using religious posturing for her own political ends. The Cyclons on the other hand are unswervingly devoted to their God. I believe there's an intentional parallel with western secular 'Christians' and extremist Muslims.

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    3. Re:it's interesting to see by Zak3056 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even before the attack Baltar's Six, a.k.a. Caprica Six, snapped a newborn's neck just because she felt like it and could get away with it.

      I actually read that as an act of mercy--instead of leaving the baby to whatever fate had in store for it (if it were lucky, incineration, if not, death from radiation) she ended it quickly.

      --
      What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
    4. Re:it's interesting to see by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with ianare... if you are given the choice of "We exterminate them, or they will exterminate us." Then I don't think the decision is very hard... I'm not going to allow my species to be exterminated just to keep the moral high ground.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    5. Re:it's interesting to see by Faizdog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Where do you draw the line for survival though? Is it your species, your nation, your state, your county, town or neighborhood? I could understand these issues at the macro level, i.e. survival of the species. And it's absurd at the micro level, i.e. I will kill everyone in the next town over even though we live in the same county. Where is the line in the middle though? What if the US was in a war against China to the bitter end? The human species will survive, but is genocide still allowed to protect your nation/race? That's already happened in Africa, and we pretty much agree on a world-wide scale that was atrocious.

      Good sci fi makes you think about the real world, and I'm not quite sure where that line falls.

      --
      -"Those who fought today will die tommorow."-
    6. Re:it's interesting to see by Evil+Pete · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In "The Eye of Jupiter" episode (Season 3) when Three sends raiders to the planet surface Adama threatens to nuke the entire continent. The Six, Eight, Five etc tell Three to pull back but she recalls all but one of the ships. Three says to the others when Adama steps back from attack : "It is *never* about one ship".

      --
      Bitter and proud of it.
  2. The best science fiction by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The best science fiction is always used as a tool to explore the current issues of the day. Whether it's aliens subbing for commies in the 50's, or cylons standing in for terrorists in the 1st season of the new Battlestar Galactica, using science fiction always lets you take a step back from the subject and explore it indirectly in a way that you never could if you made a show that deal with it directly.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:The best science fiction by imgod2u · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. Keep in mind that fiction does not need to be restrained by a rigid one-to-one mapping. It need not be cylons = terrorists, human = good guys.

      In fact, the Cyclon occupation was an incredibly clever (IMO) portrayal of modern-day Iraq and the tension and mentality (on both sides) of an occupation. The Cyclons apparently have this new religion (monotheistic one stressing love and forgiveness) and its teachings stop them from just wiping out the humans on the colony. This is the role of the United States in Iraq currently. The humans are the insurgents. Some have gone along and accepted Cylon rule (and even helped them) while others continue fighting. The morality and view from both sides is explored.

      The primary of which being suicide bombing. It wasn't a "oh noes! suicide bombing is bad and cannot be excused" mentality. It tread a fine line and explored the motivations behind such tactics. The desperation, the hatred, etc. It also explored how in resorting to such tactics, the humans were losing their humanity and that the cost of fighting was just too high in those cases.

      The show is a wonderful allegory of modern day and has really portrayed its modern day equivalents in a light I had not thought anyone dared.

  3. what i found kinda interesting ... by erlehmann · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... is that the only character that follows clear moral principles is karl "helo" agathon; every other character on the show has obvious flaws (which are necessary to create tension), but he is the only one that does what he deems right without doubt.

    i like the message transported through this: in the end, there are no heroes.

  4. Re:BG got annoying when it became... by dctoastman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Science Fiction uses fantastic elements as window dressing to cover up the fact that they are trying to get you to think about the human element. All good science fiction (Star Trek, Asimov, BSG, B5, Firefly (definitely not all of it, but examples)) is less about the science and more about the people and the choices they make.

    You're looking for Space Opera (Star Wars and its ilk), two doors down on your left.

    And also, who's to say that it is meant to be USA specific. Maybe you are just extrapolating based on what you are seeing. Like how many people see the conflict between God/Nature vs. Man in Moby Dick when Melville had stated it's just a story about a whale.
    In which case, that makes BSG excellent science fiction.

  5. Re:Interesting by Shotgun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    2.Preserving technology, infrastructure and supplies. If you've got something that works, you can't replace it. Do whatever you can to keep it working.

    That's what I thought of during the Razor episode, when the Admiral wanted to strip the civilian ships and go fight a guerilla war. What the hell, you idiot? You have working ships and people that can operate them. Those people being of a very small set of remaining humans. Why would you just throw either away. Program the ones with FTL spools that are not compatible with the Pegasus jump in next to a base ship and set off a nuclear device. Outfit them with scanning equipment and have them run scouting missions. Mount weapons on them and have one more gun in the battle. Train the people to be soldiers.

    In fact, I find the whole series permeated with the idea that there are 'civilians', helpless and incapable of self defence, and the 'military' who must provide all the needs for the civilians. And, somehow, this is as it should be. Sorry, but this is an all out WAR. Get your ass in gear and learn to shoot. Mount a gun on your ship and lend a hand. Human resources is still any organizations greatest asset. They built one additional ship the whole series. It was used for a few episodes and quickly forgotten. What the hell did everyone else do during all those months in space?

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  6. To see ourselves as others see us by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think the series is scripted to provoke exactly the kind of conflictual emotions you have mentioned - it's an old trick and it works well for retaining viewer interest. The interesting thing is that you feel the writers haven't considered these issues - I don't think they show the humans in an uncritical light at all, in fact many of the worst acts in the war are committed by humans (rape, torture, etc), I think you're feeling exactly what you're supposed to feel - i.e. 'Hang on a minute, that's not right'.

    By showing both sides of the conflict, they're shedding light on the tricks we play on ourselves to make warfare acceptable. Rather cleverly, they've cast the robots as more human than the humans in many ways (religious, questioning, constantly seeking resolution), and difficult for the viewer to tell apart from humans. People are being tortured right now in the name of the US and the UK, so I think it's rather apposite that they show humans trying to justify this by dehumanising their enemy - now perhaps they still show torture working sometimes, and they fail to show the effects it has on the torturers in terms of twisting their moral sense, but torture does happen in most wars, and they're right to show it. Nicknames like toaster etc are very common in times of war (see names for Germans or Japanese used in the states in WWII)- it's the first step in preparing to wipe out an enemy; suppress empathy. I'm sure you could find people who applauded the fire-bombing of Dresden, because of being dehumanised by war.

    Now the scripts are far from perfect, and in many ways it's a standard sci-fi pot-boiler, but there are elements which are definitely interesting, and I don't believe for a minute that the writers are not aware of the buttons they are pushing, or that they somehow feel all the actions of the humans are justified. Much time is spent discussing whether in fact these actions are correct or acceptable in any circumstances, and the introduction of several cylon characters into the human fleet is designed to bring home this distinction - personally I don't agree with their justification of torture, but it's not as naive as something like '24' at least, where jack gets out his pistol and whacks evil super-villains on the head with it a few times till they give up the secret code to their nuclear weapons. They've also played with insurrection and when/whether it is justified, which I thought was a very useful topic to examine right now in the west.

    I agree the politics can be caricatured at points, though the revolt of workers was not unusual in its outcome - If you look at the history of industrialised nations, you will see many cases of exactly this behaviour - the 1848 revolutions in several other european countries fizzled out before they got going, and the earlier frame breakers/luddites have even become a byword for stupidity, even though their grievances were real and their movement brutally repressed. When workers are not organised or allied with the middle classes they're going to have a hard time fighting a heavily armed government determined to impose order, and often the best option is to give up and bide their time.

    I just wish they based more of their scripts on historical events, to give it a bit more grit and a bit less of the trite pablum which passes for political discourse in America at the moment - at times I felt like I was watching the first episode of the West wing, particularly when that president opens her mouth, or they had that journalist woman being defused by being allowed access to the military (a nice idea, and stylistically quite fun with the grainy footage, but again came out a bit trite). I finally got bored with it all after the 3rd series, and gave up on it - it turned into a soap opera, and not a very good one, and the mixture of shallow political/social analysis and faith was just too much for me. There's a lot there that could be good, but unfortunately they went for the easy options too many times, and felt it necessary to add lots of trite filler and romantic stuffing that didn't really belong. But perhaps that's why they didn't get cancelled and Firefly did.

    I don't feel the show is encouraging xenophobia though, quite the opposite, it's encouraging you to think about it.