The Secret China-U.S. Hacking War?

bored-at-IETF-ntp-session writes "In an article at eWeek Larry Seltzer examines the supposed hacking war between the US and China. He surmises 'Even if you can't prove that the government was involved ... it still bears some responsibility'. He quotes Gadi Evron who advised the Estonians during the Russian attacks. 'I can confirm targeted attacks with sophisticated technologies have been launched against obvious enemies of China ... Who is behind these attacks can't be easily said, but it can be an American cyber-criminal, a Nigerian spammer or the Chinese themselves.' Seltzer concluded 'It's just another espionage tool, and no more or less moral than others we've used in the past.'" This a subject we've also previously discussed.

Comments

China ... is evil ...

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

Well, isn't this a surprise. The USA (and US media) is pointing fingers at an outside force for causing internal problems. Sure, it probably happens (that people in china attack american networks) ... but people all over the world do the same. Why target china? well... the US economy is in trouble, and china is economically booming.

Then again, both Hillary and Obama have said they'd renegotiate NAFTA if elected (and basically blaming canada and mexico for their problems) - which is already skewed in the favor of america - to fix their domestic problems.

Re:China ... is evil ...

[Kazrath]

You do realized that the reason China's economy is booming is because we buy so much of their crap. We have a HUGE trade deficit with China which if resolved/balanced out would stablize our economy much more than the inflation causing double infusion the gov is doing to our econmy over the next few months.

Re:China ... is evil ...

[MaWeiTao]

China's economy isn't booming quite to the extent that the American media would have us believe. Inflation is becoming a serious problem there. It may not be as big an issue for the small percentage of the population who are well off, but given that most of the nation still lives close to or in poverty it is a serious problem.

There are economists who believe China has a bubble economy built on credit and corruption. So far they've done well for themselves but it's only a matter of time before they hit a downturn. And when that happens they're going to have serious problems with civil unrest. My concern is that when that happens the government will quickly start blaming other nations for all their ills.

Believe me, Chinese people have a lot to be resentful of. All that economic growth has been great, but many people have suffered greatly for it. Thousands, if not millions have lost their homes to what amounts to eminent domain to make way for new development. People have gone off to work only to return to find their homes demolished. Supposedly the government has passed property rights laws but they don't seem to have amounted to much of anything. And let's not forget how they control free speech, although people seem to have largely forgotten about that in the midst of this economic boom.

And they may be right in a few regards. There is already the big issue of low-quality goods coming out of the country. Just recently a number of people in Japan died from having eaten tainted food from China. Sales of Chinese foods have dropped dramatically. Quality clearly isn't improving but it's getting more expensive to manufacture in China. As infrastructure improves in places like India, Vietnam and elsewhere American, European and Japanese companies are going to look to those nations for their manufacturing needs.

From personal experience, a few years ago in Taiwan everyone and their grandmother was chomping at the bit to do business in China. Many gave it a try and most failed. Nowadays, there's still a good deal of interest, but people have are a lot more tentative. China's market is over-saturated with competition and business is too cutthroat. And that's to say nothing of all the corruption.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with the American economy, because there are. But the fundamentals are still good and we're on a somewhat more stable ground. This current downturn is due to speculation more than anything. Gasoline prices are high because of the weak dollar, and more importantly because of speculators. Some economists are saying that oil's value should be at about $70 per barrel, not $100+. Demand has actually dipped in the US. The problem is who the hell knows when a correction is coming. Speculation has led the housing and stock market to the situation we find ourselves today. Look at all the people who overpaid for homes because they expected to continue seeing these absurd increases in values. And that was despite the fact that we were being warned of the housing bubble.

Now, on to the topic at hand, some people have this tendency to criticize the US for it's supposed double-standards regarding this sort of thing. How can the US government complain about China doing the very thing they themselves are engaged in?

Well, here's my thinking, I live in the United States, not China. China is free to do whatever they like, of course, but I want my nation to have the upper-hand economically and militarily. I'm not saying the US should go around pushing everyone around with impunity, nor do I think the US should be invading every second country who looks at them the wrong way.

One thing China does have is a lot of nationalistic pride. Even when they're critical of the government they still manage to have a lot of ambition. When they set their minds to doing something they get it done and don't get mired in all kinds of nonsense like is so often the case here. I think that's admirable and something sorely lacking in the US.

Re:China ... is evil ...

[bug1]

So, let me see if i understand this...

China is the cause of the US problems as its lending the US money so that the US can afford to continue to buy stuff.

I have an idea, maybe the US is to blame for being such a consumer driven society and wasting all their money on useless shipt that they hardly ever use and dont really need.

And the US is of course totally innocent

[pembo13]

And engages in no similar practices.

Now you're INTENTIONALLY duping?

[beer_maker]

WTF, Batman?! If we've done this one already, and you know that well enough to put it in the initial summary, then what's the frackin point? Since when did "piling-on" become "News That Matters?"

Re:More than hacking

[Geoffrey.landis]

The article says: "He quotes Gadi Evron who advised the Estonians during the Russian attacks. "

Note that this wasn't a "hacking war," and it wasn't a "Russian attack". It was a 20-year old Estonian kid with a botnet. More details here

Re:Not suprised

[gnick]

...we get port sweeps every day coming from china. Probably so, but I'd guess that you're also getting port sweeps from Russia, Korea, various others, and from within the US - Am I right?

Also, FTA:

Is the United States under attack again? If there any nation's government with a large on-line presence that isn't constantly under attack?

I'm thinking...

[Otter]

My guess is:

• Script kiddie idiots carrying out the attacks
• Self-promoting "security experts" making up far-fetched theories about "cyberwarfare" to get press coverage

Re:talking about espionage

[explosivejared]

Well unlike religion and science, espionage are quite tangled. Ostensibly, in the case of national security, one undertakes espionage as part of a larger effort to preserve a morality. Espionage is a security measure against threats to a certain group's morality. Most would agree that there is at least some consideration due when discussing the morality of espionage "Semantic gymnastics" aside, it's pretty hard to disentangle espionage from morality in any useful way.

Re:s/secret/formerly secret/

[TheSpengo]

Actually he has a point, it's not exactly secret if it's being posted on /., so there's no reason for that post to be modded troll. It was posted in the past too such as in this article. Articles about China and the US beefing up their network security are all over the place too. Just put "china hacking" in the search bar. :P As far as I know, this has been public for a long time.

Re:talking about espionage

[gnick]

Espionage is hardly immoral... I think that the main reason that espionage is accepted is that it's so common. And, because it's so common, it's necessary. But, if only one country in the world was engaged in it, the rest of the world would consider it very immoral and possibly an act of war.

That's of course not the case, but I don't think the issue of morality within espionage is remotely cut-and-dry.

Re:Reason Behind the Attacks

[RazorBlade99]

And why would they help the Japenese sell more Hello Kitty junk?

Secret or Ignored?

[DynaSoar]

Attacks by the Chinese are known to have occurred for at least 10 years. The first amateurish and easily traced attacks were against a particular US based "free Tibet" web site owned by a Brit, and followed by attacks on other sites of a similar nature. Within weeks the same IP range (clearly within the Chinese ministry of defense) was used to breach a mail relay at a US naval installation in Virginia. (To be fair to the Navy, the system was a relic with the then still common non-closed relay, and was a purely administrative system, not part of anything security or defense-sensitive). The reports were publicly released and largely ignored, as have been some that followed. The little public attention waned as rapidly as it tends to for larger events that fall out of the news over time. I suspect escalation, probably by both sides, occurred after attention fell off, taking advantage of that and adding expert spoofing to insure that most would not be able to consider further reports reliable.

If I were going to conduct surgical attacks against a government from within a large IP block, I'd allow others with less ambitious nasty plans to use it, and hide my activities within the flood from them, like hiding an artillery attack within a thunderstorm. I have little doubt that there are "Nigerian spammers" and such using Chinese machines. That doesn't preclude their government doing it -- to my mind it indicates the probability.

And they wouldn't want reports to be entirely absent either. Taking over or subverting the infrastructure that carries content is as much a part of psychological warfare as is the content itself. Subversion of the medium is also the message, and that must become known to the system's owners and their allies. It causes mistrust in the system, its owners, and any messages to come from them. The general public wouldn't care or pay attention, but those who did care would get the intended message. And you have.

This is the war that the General who recently answered /. questions was recruiting for. It's already in progress. I'd enjoy the hell out of serving again, and being able to do so without having to put on a uniform. I'd especially enjoy it when I found that the majority of "combatants" were somewhere below my own level of expertise, though somewhat higher than script kiddies -- interesting but not too frustrating.

I don't think that's a fair assessment

[mosb1000]

My biggest expenses are:

1) Taxes (35%)
2) Rent (17%)
3) Food (11%)
4) Tythe (10%)
5) Transportation (7%)
6) Student Loans (7%)
7) Therapy (6%)
6) Bills (4%)
7) Other stuff (3%)

Most of the stuff I buy from china comes from the "other stuff" department, which is my smallest expense. I think this is also a pretty typical for other Americans. I don't think it's fair to say that I or people like me waste "all their money on useless shipt that they hardly ever use and dont really need."

A bigger contributor to the trade deficit is China's deliberate manipulation of their currency. Measured in nominal dollars, the GDP of china is only about $2.5 trillion, but at purchasing power parity with US prices, it's $10 trillion. That's means that a dollar is worth four times as much in china as it is in the US. It's no wonder people chose to manufacture things in China.

Re:Not suprised

[angus_rg]

And 99% of the port sweeps aren't a hacking war. It's people looking for places to store warez. I'm not saying there is no hacking war, but I think it gets hyped up by a lot of unrelated traffic.