Should Mac Users Run Antivirus Software?

adamengst sends in an article from TidBITS in which Macintosh security expert Rich Mogull explains why he doesn't use antivirus software on the Mac, and why most Mac users shouldn't bother with it either. The article also touches on the question of when an increasing Mac market share might tip it over an inflection point into more active attention from malware writers. (Last month Apple had 14% of PC sales, but 25% of dollar value.)

Comments

Nay!

[ak3ldama]

Last month Apple had 14% of PC sales, but 25% of dollar value.

Say it isn't so. Everyone knows macs are just as cheap as PCs!

Re:Nay!

[vux984]

Say it isn't so. Everyone knows macs are just as cheap as PCs!

I know your just being funny, but I figured I'd explain it anyway...

An awful lot of PCs are those $300 dell specials. Apple doesn't make products that crappy, but Dell moves boatloads of them... so Dell picks up a lot of unit sales eroding Apples 'market share by unit', but because the price is so low and Apple hangs onto more of the higher value sales, the erosion effect of these low end units on their 'market share by price' is considerably less.

Lets compare apples and oranges ;)

I sell oranges at $1
I sell apples at $1
As you can see "Apples are no more expensive than oranges."

I also sell rotten oranges at 50 cents.
I don't sell rotten apples.

So if I sell 100 apples, 200 oranges, and 200 rotten oranges:

Apple has 20% of the market but 25% of dollar value.

market = 100/[100+200+200] = 1/5 = 20%,
dollars = 100/[100+200+200*0.50] = 1/4 = 25%

That's essentially whats happening here.

Re:Nay!

[vux984]

at lest that $300 dell uses desktop parts unlike the $600 mini.

You'd be assuming that someone who buys a mini would be pleased with a loud bulky cheaply built tower why?

And for $600 you can get a dell that is a lot better and it has slots to add video and other cards to it.

A lot better? Give me a break. I challenge you to put together a Dell for $650 (or $750 including monitor, since with a lot of their budget PCs you can't unbundle it) that matches the mini's specs. I challenge you.

It must have bluetooth, 802.11g wifi, firewire, at least 4 usb ports, gigabit, optical audio in and out, DVI video out, Core2Duo w/ 2MB cache, 1 GB of RAM.

The mac mini only has integrated video so GMA950 is what you need to meet or beat there, and the small slow laptop hard drive should be a nobrainer to beat too.

Since its a PC not a Mac, I'll forgive you leopard, but you'll need at least Home Premium, no Home Basic. And make sure it comes with a restore disk.

And even if you managed to do it, then ask yourself... can you also make it virtually silent and fit into a space about the same as a stack of 5 CD jewel cases?

I'm not saying you can't get a good value for $600 from a dell. And theres no question that $600 spent the right way can result in a PC that's better than a mac mini for, say, games, for example. But spec for spec, Apple is very good value, provided your needs line up with the features they offer.

I agree there are some big gaps in the apple line up... where is the fast core 2 duo tower that I can put expansion pci cards into for around $1200 for example. The imac is good value and the right specs, but the wrong form factor since I can't expand it... that's why I still use a PC tower. My laptop otoh, which I don't require to be expandable, is a mac.

With mac's expandability isn't their market; except at the extreme high end. That tends not to go over well with the 'tech crowd' like the one here, but in practice, joe sixpack never upgrades his PC anyway nor plays FPS shooters, so for them this gap is not much of an issue.

No

[willyhill]

I don't use AV for Windows, either. At least not in "resident" mode. I have a scanner I use occasionally on stuff I download that I don't fully trust.

15 years of no viruses, no malware, etc. The secret? No secret, just avoid being stupid. AV software is like driving a car with the intention of crashing it all the time, but wearing a seatbelt and thinking everything's OK.

Re:No

[serviscope_minor]

I don't use AV for Windows ... 15 years of no viruses, no malware, etc.

And you presumable know this because you've never had a virus detected. Wait a minute... :-)

It's called a waste of time and cycles.

[Mactrope]

There's no reason not to build a nuclear bomb shelter either, except that most people don't need it, it won't work and it's a waste of money. Now that I think about it, there are more reasons to build a shelter than there are to run AV on modern *nix derivatives. AV programs are a terrible performance drain on the one system that needs it but is never really protected by it.

Re:Yes

[The End Of Days]

But computing feels so much better without antivirus.

Only if you'refrom the US

[jonnyj]

Last month Apple had 14% of PC sales, but 25% of dollar value.

This is just a teeny-weeny bit unreal. Close inspection reveals that the cited article refers to US-based PC retail sales.

There is more to the world than the US. And there's more to sales than retail sales. Apple has much lower sales penetration in Europe and Asia, and it has much lower sales in the commercial sector. Apple might be on enjoying a renaissance, but don't be fooled by inappropriate statistics.

Good idea

[Sycraft-fu]

One thing that worries me is I see a lot of Mac users who have the "Macs can't have bad things happen to them," attitude. This is dangerous in general, but particularly with Macs becoming more popular. In general it is just bad because it leads to lax security policies. For example we got a notice here that a computer was doing bad things. Tracked it down, it was a Mac. We disconnected it and found the owner. Their response? "But Macs can't be hacked!" Ya well turns out they can if you are dumb enough to have a world writable FTP server with the root directory of /, which is what this idiot had done. I don't even know that it was being used for anything other than a public warez FTP, but still, the point is MacOS couldn't defend against extreme stupidity.

So I think it is a good idea for Mac users to run AV scanners, and other security tools, just in case. Even if you've never found anything, better to have a good security policy than to end up being sad later on.

Think of it like having a house in a good neighbourhood: Just because your place has never been broken in to, doesn't mean you should leave the door unlocked. Sure it might not be common where you live, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. Practise good security and it isn't a problem.

I take the same view with computer security. I mean for that matter I've never had a virus on my Windows system, and I don't find it likely that I will. I don't do the sorts of things that are going to get you infected. However, I am going to be safe about it, rather than being sorry that I was arrogant in assuming my knowledge made me invincible.

Eh, I don't know about that

[Sycraft-fu]

Especially when you start talking upgrades they seem to be pricey. Looking at an iMac right now they want $500 to go from 1GB (the default and minimum) to 4GB. Hop over to Dell and going from 512MB (default and minimum) to 4GB is only $170. Now yes, I realise you can buy aftermarket parts, but that defeats part of the point of getting an OEM system and certainly an Apple: support. You get everything from the OEM, they are your one stop for support, particularly with Apple who also makes the OS. You start buying aftermarket, that is no longer the case.

Now that aside, the other problem I find is that while their prices are often comparable for a system at a given point, they don't actually offer what many want. The towers are a good example. Yes, actually, their towers are fairly competitive pricewise when you spec out a similar Dell workstation with dual quad cores, lots of registered ECC RAM capacity, and so on. However the problem is what if I don't want that? What if I want a single quad core (or dual core), non-ECC RAM, and so on? There's plenty of cases where this is a much better option.

Let's say I don't have software that scales up to 8 cores. This is fairly common these days. So let's say I'd like a quad core with 4GB of RAM. If I go the Apple tower route, $2800 is the price for that. That isn't unreasonable, since it is a single Xeon, with support for a second one, and registered, ECC RAM, which is really expensive. However, Gateway (or I suppose MPC now since they bought Gateway's business division) would be happy to sell me a E-6610Q with similar specs (HD, video, etc) for about half that ($1300).

Now the thing is, the sort of system I listed is quite useful. We buy a good number of them here (that's why I know about it) for research. There's a lot of cases where someone wants a system that has a good processor, plenty of RAM (we often get 8GB even, which is still cheap) but just really doesn't have use for a full on workstation class system. This is even more true now that processors have gone multi-core. While 8 cores is great, there are just a lot of things that are hard to write to make use of that many. So if you aren't using more than 4, the second processor, and all the associated cost, isn't useful.

That is the main reason I'd say Apple isn't competitive on price. A mid range tower is something that there is a whole lot of market for, but they just don't sell. If you don't want an all in one, your only option is super high end. If you don't have a need for the extra hardware, that is just money wasted.

Same goes for people at home. For example I like to play games. An all in one wouldn't work for me. Sure, I could get a similar monitor (24" widescreen), CPU (Core 2 Duo) and RAM (4GB) to what I have. However I can't get the graphics card I have, and I can't ever upgrade it. That is a show stopper right there, since the core of the system will last a good deal longer than the video card. It'd be a waste to buy a new system when only one component needs updating. Likewise the monitor will outlast the system, again a waste to upgrade.

That's my objection to the argument that Apple is a good value for equivalent hardware. That is true in a narrow sense sometimes, but given that they don't have a solution for a large number of people, it isn't true over all.

Re:Then Rich Mogull Ain't No Security Expert

[pandrijeczko]

Deal with it Macs are very secure compared to PCs.

PS. If you mean "Windows" then say "Windows" rather than "PCs". I'm not getting into a "my brother is bigger than your brother" argument but my Linux PCs are probably far more secure than your Mac. That's because security is my job, I've a decade of Linux experience with an additional 15 years of UNIX experience and I am forever fiddling about with the bloody things to make them as secure as possible. If you do the same with your Mac(s) then good on you.

PPS. And before I get called a zealot, I also run a number of XP PCs with AVG Antivirus on them that also never get viruses because I watch where I surf, never install pirated software and never open an email attachment that I'm not 100% confident about.