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Few of OOXML's Flaws Have Been Addressed

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "IBM's Rob Weir has done a study on how many flaws were addressed by the OOXML Ballot Resolution Meeting. So far, using a random sampling technique, he has yet to find a flaw that was addressed, making the upper bound a paltry 1.5%. Even so, he's found a number of new flaws, including a security vulnerability: OOXML stores passwords in database connection strings in plain text. At least there were no mistakes on five of the first twenty five random pages he reviewed."

22 of 162 comments (clear)

  1. Corruption. by twitter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why fix flaws when you can buy voters?

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  2. Office 2007 by number6x · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Do any of these flaws exist in Office 2007?

    If not, why are they in the OOXML proposed standard. If the standard does not describe the OOXML format used by Microsoft, then what does it describe?

    Why can't they just document the format that they use and get this over with? Or are they doing all this for show, and there is no real substance in OOXML?

    1. Re:Office 2007 by corsec67 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or are they doing all this for show, and there is no real substance in OOXML?

      The reason MS is bothering with ISO is because a few places have started to require that documents be stored in an ISO defined format.

      The problem is that having a true ISO defined format means that you open yourself up to competition, so MS wants to get their format defined as ISO certified without allowing any competition.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    2. Re:Office 2007 by Basilius · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are no existing implementations of the proposed OOXML standard, so whether Office 2007 has the same defects or not is sort of irrelevant. MSFT has stated that they will not be implementing the standard as proposed, but will be going a different direction. And, given the nature of parts of the standard, nobody BUT Microsoft can fully implement it.

      The mere fact that there ARE no implementations of OOXML, however, should be a giant, florescent, waving red flag. No standards body should adopt a standard that cannot and will not be implemented by the proposers.

    3. Re:Office 2007 by belmolis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed. And the lack of existing implementations makes OOXML all the more inappropriate for the fast track process, which is intended for existing de facto standards, meaning (a) widely implemented and (b) with broad consensus in the relevant field.

    4. Re:Office 2007 by peragrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If MSFT fixed the flaws with OOXML then there wouldn't be a problem.

      it's not that OOXML is bad, it is that OOXML is broken and MSFT is trying to ram it through anyways. there is nothing there that can't be fixed. MSFT however doesn't want it fixed because OOXML 2010 is just around the corner and it won't be the same as OOXML 2007. Also OOXML 2010 becomes a defaco standard even though it isn't ISO certified since it is marketed as OOXML.

      this is how MSFT works if you don't know this then go back and look at the past 30 years of how MSFT treats it's customers, vendors, and slaves.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:Office 2007 by TropicalCoder · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You'll remember Stéphane Rodriguez who gave us Microsoft Office XML formats? Defective by design back in August, 2007?

      Since then, in February, 2008 he produced The truth about Microsoft Office compatibility and Typical B.S. in technical articles about OOXML and now Bad surprise in Microsoft Office binary documents : interoperability remains impossible Thursday, March 13, 2008.

      These blogs are at the same level of depth as Rob Weir's latest blog, and demonstrate that Microsoft's policies as detailed below continue to this day.

      From OOXML is defective by design...

      "Mr Bill Gates in person sent in 1998 a memo to the Office product group (led by Steven Sinofsky at the time), memo undisclosed to the public thanks to the IOWA consumer case :"

      From: Bill Gates

      Sent: Saturday, December 5 1998

      To: Bob Muglia, Jon DeVann, Steven Sinofsky

      Subject : Office rendering

      One thing we have got to change in our strategy - allowing Office documents to be rendered very well by other peoples browsers is one of the most destructive things we could do to the company.

      We have to stop putting any effort into this and make sure that Office documents very well depends on PROPRIETARY IE capabilities.

      Anything else is suicide for our platform. This is a case where Office has to avoid doing something to destroy Windows.

      I would be glad to explain at a greater length.

      Likewise this love of DAV in Office/Exchange is a huge problem. I would also like to make sure people understand this as well.

      -----------


      Clearly the word is getting out about the problems in OOXML. Stéphane Rodriguez notes at the bottom of OOXML - Defective by design:

      Update : this article was Slashdotted on Sunday 26 of August.

      Update2 : this article is taking 300,000 hits a day, and is making it all around the world in all kinds of sites. My web host provider was so angry at the peak in traffic that he threatened to cut me off, so I had to redirect to a blog site such as Google's blogger to host the article.

      Update3 : wednesday august 29, added a new section on Document security

      Update4 : friday august 31, added more content to sections US English and Windows dates

      Update5 : sunday september 2, added a quick comparison between ODF and ECMA 376

  3. Re:Whatever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ballmer is that you?

  4. huh? by trybywrench · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This may be off topic but why exactly are there database connection strings in a document format?

    --
    I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
    1. Re:huh? by Shados · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because people actually do work with Office Suites, and they are an integral part of the workflow and ecosystem of significant companies IT.

      For example, a spreadsheet is often the favored client for an OLAP system, and complex spreadsheets will get reused a lot, so connection strings may be part of the overall "application" that the document has become.

      People like me and (probably) you tend to use documents as just that: documents. But in the big boy's world, they're far more important than that.

  5. enough is enough by BroadbandBradley · · Score: 4, Interesting

    how long will it take people to shrug off this death grip of MS and realize that it's costing billions in productivity? I received an XLS file of contacts yesterday and I figured I'd try using Outlook to import it into an address book so I could then sync to other things like Gmail. Outlook choked and recommended assigning values to the columns using another MS product - MS Excel. SO, I saved the file as CSV, and imported using Thunderbird which gave me an easy dialog to match up name,email, phone, website..and so on. Worked great! then I used thunderbird to open the second file and it remembered the previous adjustments and everything was already lined up! Awesome stuff and I wasn't prompted to buy any other products!

    I'm seriously considering wiping all the PC's in my office and advising the staff to just learn Ubuntu to avoid this whole MS deathgrip. None of the staff are advanced users except my web guy who codes in a text editor anyhow. FMS.

  6. Re:Who said said OOXML is a "superb standard" ?? by pipatron · · Score: 3, Informative

    It was Miguel de Icaza, and he is paid money indirectly from Microsoft since he works for Novell.

    One of the reasons I stopped using GNOME, I don't want anything to do with the Mono project.

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  7. Re:Small bias? by cyxs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone has a bias but if he gives you the information that he used to form his opinion about something then you can read what he says and what he did and form your own opinions. He is giving detailed examples of what he found. He isn't just say "Everything is fine" or "They have WMD", he is giving how he comes to his opinion and showing you the facts.

    Yes his company maybe bias in not wanting the format approved, but does that make what he says less true? The facts speak the truth.

  8. What's the point? Who is going to follow this? by pembo13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As I understand it, Microsoft isn't going to follow this standard. If Microsoft isn't going to follow this standard, then it is useless for OpenOffice, NeoOffice, KOffice, etc. to follow this standard. Or is this going to be for Office 2k10 or something?

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:What's the point? Who is going to follow this? by MLCT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MS doesn't care about anyone following it (since even they themselves aren't going to). All they are doing it for is so they can claim that MS Office uses an open ISO standard, OOXML (even though it won't use the ISO passed standard) so that governments, businesses and buyers are not scared away from their products.

      As with everything MS does it is all about control and money. They have observed the fights that took/are taking place at various governmental and state levels over the mandatory use of an open standard - and they see that it is a threat to their monopoly, hence they have strategised to nullify the problem without giving up any of their control. The whole thing is a rate 10 sham. And if anyone ever wants to know why a lot of people don't trust MS then this is a perfect example of it - the process and the mockery they are making of it is frankly satirical.

    2. Re:What's the point? Who is going to follow this? by johannesg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are absolutely spot on, and what's worse, we can also confidently predict the next step: governments and organisations will be falling over themselves to proclaim their support for OOXML, since it is "an ISO standard". Then they will happily sign their soul over to Microsoft because they have a product that implements this standard, while at the same time disallowing OpenOffice and other office packets because they are not fully compatible with MS Office.

      Then we will tell them that Microsoft is actually not implementing their own damn standard correctly, and we will be laughed away - after all, Microsoft *IS* the standard, so how could it be incorrect?

      And it will all be business as usual...

      The whole thing makes me intensely sad. By the way, we had some articles about the Dutch government requiring open formats a while ago. I professed severe scepticism at the time. Let me give you a little update on that one, then: as it is, the new desktops are required to support a very wide range of technologies that can ONLY be fullfilled by having MS Office on MS Windows. So although the government requires open standards, it also requires Active Directory, for example. And guess what they are buying? Yes, that's right: MS Office on MS Windows. But, we are told, in the next round (in 2011 or so), there will definitely be an opportunity for Linux "because in this round we are already ensuring compatibility".

      As I said, business as usual.

  9. Re:Small bias? by oGMo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He might well be right, but I'd be more inclined to believe it from someone who doesn't have a corporate interest in picking data points to fit the line he would like to draw.

    So you won't verify anything, or even check, but rather you feel that the exact same thing from someone else would be more true. Essentially, despite the facts, you don't feel the truthiness is sufficient.

    By your logic, you may well be right, but you may also just be a shill for Microsoft. I'd be more inclined to believe someone else who didn't have a corporate interesting in picking data points to disparage the argument you'd like to make. Or maybe if you had an argument to make not based on a well-known informal fallacy.

    --

    Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  10. Re:Whatever by el+cisne · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Does the poster have a chair?"

    Not any more.....

  11. Standards are not religons by surfingmarmot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yet a lot of people treat them that way like this Slash Dot commenter: "He might well be right, but I'd be more inclined to believe it from someone who doesn't have a corporate interest in picking data points to fit the line he would like to draw." Just why is that rated a 5? It is NOT about belief, but more about science--either the facts and peer review support Mr. Weir or they don't. Apparently they do and in Spades. The majority of "yes" votes on this "standard" are by Microsoft partners who have a vested interest in a dingle vendor, single application (the only full implementation read and write) solution they sell products and services for and can lock in business. Sure IBM is a commercial organization with a checkered past, but they don't own completely open ODF so they aren't doing this for gain. they jsut want a level playing field for formats. And it is a great idea.

  12. Re:Um, this is a perfect example of "ad hominem".. by vtscott · · Score: 3, Informative
    No, this is a perfect example of an ad hominem attack... This particular type of ad hominem is an ad hominem circumstantial:

    Ad hominem circumstantial involves pointing out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Essentially, ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a person. The reason that this is fallacious in syllogistic logic is that pointing out that one's opponent is disposed to make a certain argument does not make the argument, from a logical point of view, any less credible; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).

    One example given by wikipedia is:

    Tobacco company representatives should not be believed when they say smoking doesn't seriously affect your health, because they're just defending their own multi-million-dollar financial interests.

    Just replace the relevant references with words like IBM, OOXML, etc. and it's basically the same.

  13. OOXML approved by NIST by seandiggity · · Score: 3, Informative

    Even though none of the substantial problems have been addressed, NIST has approved OOXML.

    --
    Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
  14. Who else? by Tony · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Riiight. We should have one of the few people willing and able to examine the standard for flaws just not do it. That's an excellent idea.

    At what point has IBM been dishonest? Rob Weir is an employee of IBM. They have a distinct interest in making sure that whatever format is approved, they are able to implement it. Therefore, it is in their best interest to make sure it is a good standard. As they have determined that it isn't a good standard, what should they do? Not talk about it?

    The fact that his bias is out in the open is perfectly fine, as is the example you give from Peter Torr. That allows people to judge their statements, and account for possible bias.

    The problem with Weir recusing himself is this: nobody else seems to be doing this. Nobody else is standing up to a corrupted process, where the intended and stated results are sidelined for political expediency. If it takes one corrupt company to stand up to another corrupt company, then so be it. At least they are standing up to a corrupt company. (Yes, I'd prefer if neither were corrupt.)

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.