Sequoia Vote Machine Can't Do Simple Arithmetic?
whoever57 writes "Ed Felten is showing a scan of the summary from a Sequoia voting machine used in New Jersey. According to the paper record, the vote tallies don't add up — the total number of Republican ballots does not match the number of votes cast in the Republican primary and the total number of Democratic ballots does not match the number of votes cast in the Democratic primary. Felten has a number of discussions about the problems facing evoting, up to and including a semi-threatening email from Sequoia itself."
Update: 03/20 23:30 GMT by J : Later today, Felten added an update in which he analyzes Sequoia's explanation. He has questions, comments, and a demand.
Both tallies are out by 1 count. Could it be the one is counting from zero and the other from one?
:)
On the bright side at least the error will vanish as the number of votes approaches infinity
As Felten made clear in the article, it's not the size of the discrepancy that's the issue, but the fact that it's there at all. You'd expect this sort of minor error from humans, but the machine turning out this discrepancy is a dead giveaway that something is fundamentally wrong with its inner workings. If we could examine said inner workings, we could determine the cause of this bizzare behavior, but actually knowing what is going on inside their machines is something Sequoia is bound and determined to prevent. One can't help but wonder why, given what we've just seen...
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~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Well, bring on the lawsuit from Sequoia I guess. Hopefully the ACLU & EFF will help Dr. Felten with his legal fees.
There is a war going on for your mind.
I love the double-standard here. The government wants to invade the privacy of it's citizens (discussed several times over on these very forums) and one of the typical responses is "Well, if you don't have anything to hide...".
But when an independant third party wants to verify that an important piece of hardware used in our political process can actually do the very simple math that it's required to do, the corporation who produces is has laws that it can throw in one's face to prevent verification of data. Shouldn't someone be pressing Sequoia with the "if you don't have anything to hide..." mantra?
Does anyone else here see the obvious double-standard that we've created for ourselves?
The readout on a screen seems like a simple data display problem. Perhaps the programmer did something stupid like:
print array.lastIndex.indexNum
instead of
print array.count
The real concern here is not that it has a bug. All software has bugs. The concern is over what kind of QA was performed to guarantee our votes. If such a simple and obvious test case was not performed, how on earth are we to feel good about this machine?
At first, I was thinking,"Oh, maybe some people chose not to vote after calling up either Rep or Dem." But then I realized the math involved. The computer says 60 votes were cast for the Reps, but 61 votes are actually placed.
Sheesh, why does this have to be so difficult. We can conduct trillions of dollars of business electronically, but we still don't have an effective digital voting system? I think the conspiracy here is by someone who hates technology likes to kill trees for paper balloting, not that digital voting is being rigged.
Bearded Dragon
The little gnome in the machine made a slight error. So what?
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Mod down, way NSFW.
There is a war going on for your mind.
On the whole of it, I have a big problem with the "Winner takes all" system anyway, with the majority giving the power to a handful to beat up on us all. Not even getting into how the Republicans and the Democrats systemically shuts out all other parties.
But if we are going to have voting, at least make it fair. Give equal time to ALL parties, not just the D-R club, and use paper ballots under tight security. At least make "Democracy" less of a joke than it already is.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
Considering that this article was listed as showing "11 of 3 Comments" I think this is quite a common problem.
Those who believe the Internet is private,
find their privates are on the Internet.
Ok, thats it! We need the source code for /. polls.
What credibility are you talking about?
After all those neato stints that just about every voting machine company tried to pull their credibility is somewhere between a San Francisco Tenderloin crack hooker and a timeshare salesman for quite some time now.
Thinking about it the hookers credibility is probably a lot better then the ones of those voting machine vendors.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
How is intentionally preventing auditing of the basic method of democracy anything less than treason? The Board of Directors should be jailed forever for condoning this activity by the Company's lawers.
This is New Jersey why should bother with making sure the election machines can't be rigged. Hell, even our own NJ Supreme Court doesn't follow the NJ Constitution even when they rule something unconstitutional! Witness the 2002 Senate election when one candidate was replaced with another even though the Court ruled it was unconstitutional to do so. "Yeah, it's unconstitutional. Just don't do it again next time." As a Jersey resident, I'll be unsurprised if the election board allows the machines to be used anyway. Can't let some company's profit (and political payoffs) be sidelined by something as trivial as honest elections!
Mathematically speaking, proving a program correct from the source code is in generaly impossible (if you could do that you could, in particular, solve the halting problem). From the software engineering perspective it's true that examining the source code gives you greater confidence in the software than just black-box testing.
And that's exactly the way it's worked in every locality I've ever voted in, provide full name and address, workers cross name off list, get ballot. I'm not buying the GP's story.
Slightly disreputable, albeit gregarious
Everyone keeps saying that a solution to the problem of potential voter fraud would be to open-source the code. My question is -- how? Let's say they do and someone reads it and understands it; what guarantee does anyone have that the code they've published is the same as the code on the machines the day of the election? It would be absolutely trivial to cut out the naughty bits before publishing.
If Sequoia really were ready to commit mass voter fraud, I doubt they would have too many moral issues with violating the principles of open source while they're at it.
I call bs on this. Every single election I've voted in (5 so far, in Maryland and Massachusetts) your name had to be on a list, and was marked off that list when you voted. There's simply no way someone who isn't registered to vote could have voted. While it's possible an illegal alien could be registered to vote, it would be a short matter of time before INS tracked them down that way. I think your uncle was having a double laugh - at both the incompetence and gullibility of Americans. You fell for it. I prefer to believe that than you're knowingly trying to shift focus form this very real issue to the phantom issue of illegal aliens (oooooo! scary!) usurping the rights of naturalized citizens.
The crimes of eBay are a disgrace to it's pig latin heritage!
And an Update: Sequoia's intimidation has worked , the state won't be sending Felten a machine.
"Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
my town recently had a referendum and the votes dont add up. 2881 voted yes and 2467 voted no. This adds up to 5348 but the report shows a total of 5362. http://www.sussexcountyclerk.com/08ss.HTM/
in the primary you have to pick a side if you want to vote. Democrat or Republican. Once you choose, you must vote within that party. At least in a closed primary that is how it works. So, if you're a registered Green, you don't get to vote in the primary. In the general election of course, everybody gets to vote.
Had she registered to vote at the DMV, the first time she actually tried to vote they would ask for proof. This is how it works in IL. The DMV (here in IL the Secretary of State) is not allowed to examine most of these forms, regardlessly you will be marked in the role as needing to show proof when you go to the poll. Alternatively you can register to vote at the county clerks office and show proof of eligibility to vote and then the first time you vote you only need to sign. My wife did the first method, I the second.
The machine counted the vote for Giuliani as being for the Democratic party.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
I was a poll worker in the 2006 election in Essex County, NJ. We were using the new Sequoia machines, for the first time in a general election, I believe. We experienced a discrepancy between the machine vote count and the count of paper tickets which are issued to the voters when they sign in to vote, and which are collected when the voter actually votes at the machine. We had 5 more votes than tickets, out of about 600 total votes in the precinct. The gap was present quite early in the day; a voting official who checked in at our precinct observed the gap at about 10 am. We had no clue how this came about, whether it was operator error on our part or whether the machines were just plain buggy or hacked. Apparently the problem was widespread, since a form letter was sent to poll workers that indicated discrepancies on a ward by ward basis. Never got resolved, as far as I know, nor did it get any meaningful coverage in the local or regional press. Without a full paper trail, I will never trust any electronic voting result.