For CS Majors, How Important Is the "Where?"

An anonymous reader writes "I'm a high school senior who is trying to pick a college to attend. I've been accepted by two comparably selective schools. One is a highly regarded tech school, and the other is a highly regarded liberal arts institution. I prefer the liberal arts college, but the computer science program is small, graduating about a dozen students a year. The course load is heavily theory based; programming languages are taught in later years. How much would the tech school vs. non tech school matter? Are CS majors from non-tech school considered inferior? What would an HR department think? What would you think if you were hiring?"

Comments

OH NOES!

[Plazmid]

Never ever go to a liberal arts college, they make you write PAPERS about POEMS some DEAD GUY wrote.

Re:OH NOES!

[aurispector]

Remember that the point of attending a university is to get a *well rounded* education. A university is not a technical school and (surprise!) most of life is not programming. One of the most valuable skills you can gain is the ability to express yourself clearly, something that will serve you well regardless of your eventual choice of career.

There is a strong possibility, even a probability that you will not be programming for your entire life and you will need a skill set that serves you far beyond the technical focus of your major. As someone with some (limited) experience interviewing job candidates, IMO the ability to be thoughtful and articulate will serve better than narrow technical skill.

You have the rest of your life to gain technical skills, which in CS are constantly changing. Don't train yourself to be a specific cog in a machine, instead try to gain the ability to handle a wider variety of tasks.

depends...

[Anonymous Coward]

do you want to go to school with a bunch of geeks or a bunch of hippies?

that is the dilemma you are facing. it's a double-edged sword.

Re:depends...

[gbjbaanb]

liberal art school... full of, well, girls. All of which have their heads filled with romance, poetry, and a total lack of understanding about anything real world. Go there :-)

Re:depends...

[vain gloria]

do you want to go to school with a bunch of geeks or a bunch of hippies?

that is the dilemma you are facing. it's a double-edged sword.

Either way the smell is going to be terrible.

The answer to this and most other decisions.

[Thanshin]

I'd choose the college with the most beautiful women.

However, in my country, right now, there's no chance of not finding a nice job with any kind of CS higher education.

Also, take into account the importance of your choice of college will fade after some years. At 45, your rank (?) won't really depend on your college but on your skill and abilities.

Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[Daengbo]

I think a Lib. Arts degree has great merit, but the submitter has a much better chance of getting a good education at a highly-rated technical school. You learn a lot just by being around other people who know more than you do.

In the L.A. school, you'll have to educate yourself. The tech school will let you bounce ideas off of other students as well as the more numerous professors.

This from a Liberal Arts major ....

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[Anonymous Coward]

From a person (senior graduating in about 30 days) at an engineering school that you have almost certainly heard of:

Give very, very serious thought to going to the liberal arts school. In my case, the school has forced enough computer science, math, bio, engineering, physics, etc. down my throat that I've actually soured somewhat on the idea of having anything to do with computer science after graduation. If it's a top ... say ... three or four engineering school, you have to have a very serious conversation with yourself about whether you are okay with staying up until 5:00AM to finish a problem set for a course you're not very interested in becoming a very common occurrence. Freshman and sophomore years in particular are always absolute killers at those places. I know quite a few people at the school I go to that confided in me that when they arrived they were extremely happy and healthy, and they now have very significant mental, cardiological, and neurological problems. I'm not kidding when I say "killer" -- you're literally shortening your lifespan.

I know it sounds weird, but if you do CS 24/7 (perhaps literally 20/7 for long stretches) there's going to be a time when you long for a course that will teach you about poetry, or history, or something completely unrelated to what you spend the rest of your time on. And there will be a good chance you're not going to be able to fit such a course in your schedule.

Also, keep in mind that many, many of the people at very good engineering schools are extremely socially maladapted. Sometimes staggeringly so. So you have to reconcile yourself with that, too.

Some people absolutely thrive at those sorts of colleges. But most, from what I've seen, just leave technically more proficient (though not much more so than if they went to a liberal arts school) and quite a bit more hollow.

Then again, if you do go to a technical school, I can tell you from quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that you're going to get preferential treatment in the hiring process with a huge name engineering school. I've personally had two interviewers confide in me post-selection that I was picked over (to me) obviously more qualified candidates because they didn't believe that someone from [X. State] could be better qualified than a person from [ABC] and that they had just assumed that I flubbed the interviews. So if you're truly unsure of your ability to make a name for yourself at a liberal arts college, you could at least leverage the branding power that the engineering school has.

If you do wind up at the engineering school, see if you can get attached to a research project as soon as possible. At most of the interesting places to work, saying "I have [x] papers published in [journal A], [journal B], and [journal C]" has way more sway -- even if the topics aren't related to the job -- than saying "I can do pointer arithmetic really fast in my head." If you decide to go to grad school, publications in your name make them start salivating when they see your application packet, because doing original research and writing about it is generally what grad school is about.

Christ, that was supposed to be a "I think liberal arts colleges are good" and turned into a novella. College really is what you a make of it, and you can do very well for yourself either place. Just make sure you find friends who are smarter than you and start hanging out with them. And then make sure you make friends who aren't technical majors at all, and hang out with them at least as often. To get perspective.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[dhavleak]

I'd say the 'where' is very important - but not for the usual reasons. Its possible to be just as successful either way -- but there's a reason you hear of more success stories from the big-name schools.

What it comes down to is standards. Its very difficult to maintain high standards in isolation. In a recognized/sought-after school you will usually face much more competition, more motivated and focused classmates. They are your competition for good grades (especially when graded on a curve) and at job fairs on campus. The result is that you get pushed harder (and you in turn are one of the people pushing your classmates to excell as well). Bottom line: if you want an A in Compilers in the big tech school you'll have to really know your shit inside out. If you want to get an A in the Liberal Arts school its a lot easier. At the end of it, you'll have much more airtight concepts if you've gone through the grind at the big school.

A long-term perk of the big school is that you'll make close friends from among this pool of competitors -- they help you keep your standards high even after school (as will your colleagues at work, etc. etc.)

Of course, all this advice is based on certain assumptions about your goals and career ambitions, and might not apply if the assumptions are invalid.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[Rary]

This post raises a crucial point:

There's more to life than technology.

I'm Canadian, so it's possible that there are cultural differences here, but a friend of mine does a lot of hiring, and he's told me that part of what he looks for in a candidate is what knowledge, experience, and interests they have outside of computers. For example, if he were considering hiring me, and didn't know me, he would be impressed to learn that I have a pilot's license, as it shows two things: I'm a well-rounded individual with interests beyond just computers (ie. not obsessive and unbalanced); and I'm capable of learning and understanding concepts beyond just those involving bits.

So, don't be a one-trick pony. For the sake of your resume, and for the sake of your own sanity, get an education that covers more than just technology.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. As an employer I've found that it's easier to train an arts student to program than it is to teach an engineer social skills.

HR departments don't care

[BadAnalogyGuy]

First, HR departments don't care where your degree is from.

Once you understand that, you need to understand yourself and your goals. What do you want to do with your degree? Do you want to be a sysadmin (face it, you can go to Devry and do that job competently), programmer, manager, researcher? These are things that should influence your decision. If you want to work in a research department (say PARC or MSR), you will need postgraduate degrees, and the best thing in that case is to choose the tech school. Other than that, you would probably have more fun at the liberal arts college.

You should also think about what kind of college experience you want. Do you want to go to a large school with many opportunities to meet a very diverse set of people? Do you want to go to a small school and be more than just another face in the crowd? Do you want to be involved in fraternities? Which school will give you the school experience you want?

Where are the schools located? Do you want to live in a small college town? How about a big city? Do you want the college to be your primary connection to the world, or do you want to explore outside the gates? How much cold weather can you stand? How much crime can you stand? Which school has the best location for you?

There are a great many factors in choosing a school. Do not limit your choices because you heard that one program is better than another. If you really don't know what you want to do yet, don't make the choice on program reputation alone. If you know you want the best program, then maybe that is the best choice, but in the end the "better" program is not going to prepare you much better than the "worser" program.

Employers Want Fast Learners & Good Communicat

[BBCWatcher]

First of all, I suspect you'll get a fair number of comments arguing against attending a liberal arts college. You're asking a Slashdot audience, so approach such comments with caution.

I've interviewed and hired some employees, and I have also interviewed dozens of students applying to one of America's most elite universities for admission (or much more often rejection). (I also had a similar decision to make at age 17.) Above all else I look for candidates who can learn quickly and who can communicate well. That second attribute is arguably less common among graduates from technical institutions, but communication starts with your resume (or a campus recruiting event, or whatever), not with the mere identity of your college, so I keep an open mind and would invite you to an interview if the signs are otherwise positive. I also look for inquisitiveness: are you a person who is inherently curious about the world? I look for other attributes, too, but those three are priorities.

But even before you get to an interview or apply for a job, do you know what you want to do when you grow up? A lot of prospective college students are not sure, and many or most change their minds. Some colleges provide more options than others if you do change your mind. I would recommend using college as a vehicle to explore your curiosities. That journey of exploration builds confidence, and confident, thoughtful people often interview better. If you are already sure about your path, great, go chase your dream. If you are not, then go explore what fascinates you to build your dream.

Good luck.

Re:Where will you be in 20 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

meanwhile in reality...

both the liberal arts and tech grads are stuck in cubicles, but the liberal arts grad can make wittier whips at the water tank and has an extra smirk when he sips his latte.

Re:Not very

[xtracto]

Here,

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take some of them

Advice from someone who hires programmers

[EvlG]

Since you will be coming right out of school, you may not have much practical experience when it comes time to see a full-time job. This is to be expected, but there are a couple of things you can do to make yourself stand out:

1) Seek a good internship/coop that allows you to develop practical experience. Many of these are one or two-semester gigs (or one or two summers). When I was in school, I had a 3.5 yr coop which was basically a long-term relationship with a local employer. That was hugely valuable, as by the time I graduated I had a ton of experience (even leading small projects). I would have gotten a full-time offer had that department not been closed down shortly after I left.

2) Work on some interesting hobby projects. School projects are often an interesting spring board, but consider ways to apply what you are learning to scratching some itch.

Personally, I don't give the candidate's school a whole lot of weight. Maybe it gets my attention when looking at a sea of applicants, but I consider each applicant on his/her own merit as demonstrated by the resume, cover letter, and other submitted materials. The most crucial aspect of the whole process is actually the on-site interview. Everything else is just a screening mechanism.

What I look for most is what Joel Spolsky from Joel on Software refers to as "Smart and Gets Things Done." For me, that means someone who is interested in programming because they think it's cool and provides an outlet for creative problem solving, and someone who has demonstrated an ability to tackle problems in the past.

Therefore, I would recommend that you choose a college based on the total experience you will get. Consider everything college offers: learning about a lot of topics, meeting new people, exposure to new ideas, a new level of freedom and independence, moving to a new place to be exposed to new culture, etc... Many of the classes that had the most impact on me and were most memorable were far outside the CS curriculum. Consider what opportunities are available there with each school. Think about what it will be like to live in each of the cities the colleges are located in. Think about what there could be to explore and discover there. Choose the school that is best for you on all of those fronts - don't limit yourself to just choosing a CS program.

In a few years where you got your CS degree won't matter so much, but the memories and experiences you got while in school will last your entire lifetime. Many of those experience will be unrelated to what happened in the classroom.

True, Experience matters

[jettawu]

I graduated from a smaller university that isn't really known for its computer science or any technical schools. I now work for a mobile phone game company and prior to that, I worked for Amazon. A friend of mine graduated from the same university with the same major and is now working for Lockheed Martin.

youll find your job. experience outdoes almost any college name. At the bottom line, I agree with the parent, that experience is huge. On top of that, how well you interact with people and "market yourself" to potential employers matters a lot too (the friend who works for Lockheed got his initial position there from a very impressive conversation with a recruiter at a job fair where the recruiter wasn't even really looking for anyone new).

That just doesn't make sense...

[clary]

I think you make a good point, but I'll take it one step further. Let's face it, an IT job is the modern day equivalent of a janitor in the eyes of management. You can be very successful, but you'd have to put in un-Godly hours and sacrifice too much. You'd be successful careerwise, but unhappy in your life. I see this kind of post on slashdot a lot, and it makes me wonder if I am an anomaly. I have a graduate degree in CS and close to 20 years of software development experience. Right now I work as a software developer in a small division of a medium-sized software company. Maybe it is because software is our product, but developers are pretty high on the totem pole here. I have the tools I need, work reasonable, flexible hours most of the time, and enjoy my work. My previous jobs have been varied, from huge companies to small ones, but I have enjoyed each in its own way. So what's the deal? Have I just been incredibly lucky or is slashdot full of whiners?

Since the only reason you're working in the first place is to make money, you should think outside the "go to college, get a good job" box. Find something and start your own business. I think he/she should skip the CS degree, get a job in construction, and after a few years become a contractor. Essentially get into some field for a few years to learn the trade (and make it a trade that EVERYONE needs. Plumber, electrician, etc.) and work hard for a few years to gain knowledge into doing the job and keeping an eye on how to run a company of that type.

Don't spend your life working for someone else. It's a horrible experience now, and it's only going to get worse as corporations expand their control. Start your own company and work it from a young age and you'll be much better off by the time you're 30. If the original submitter is the entrepreneurial type, then this could be partly good advice. But how can you be so goofy as to suggest he pick something so unrelated to what are his apparent interests? If he wanted to be in construction, plumbing, or electrical work, then he would already be in it. While those trades can result in a good living, they are also freaking hard work.

Since this is slashdot, I feel justified in psychoanalyzing you just from this one post. ;-) I think you've got a chip on your shoulder from your own bad experiences in the IT world, and hate your own job. Not everyone works only to make money, and not everyone in IT hates his job.