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Bill Gates On the GPL — "We Disagree"
Dionysius, God of Wine, writes with a link to an Ars Technica story, quoting Bill Gates: "'There's free software and then there's open source' he suggested, noting that Microsoft gives away its software in developing countries. With open source software, on the other hand, 'there is this thing called the GPL, which we disagree with.' Open source, he said, creates a license 'so that nobody can ever improve the software,' he claimed, bemoaning the squandered opportunity for jobs and business. (Yes, Linux fans, we're aware of how distorted this definition is.) He went back to the analogy of pharmaceuticals: 'I think if you invent drugs, you should be able to charge for them,' he said, adding with a shrug: 'That may seem radical."
Nothing wrong with greedy. Just, when you're competing with 'free' you better bring a lot to the table.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Isn't this the same guy who says that when they cure cancer, he'll buy enough of the cure to distribute it to everyone in the world for free?
OSS typically goes after mature late life cycle applications, such as OS's, Office suites, etc.. If Microsoft was truly on the cutting edge of innovation, I dont think they would care either way....
:)
Meaning, people can say what they like, but in my opinion OSS is capitalism's way of preventing companies from profiting on a product the developed indefinitely... And this is a good thing, in my opinion..
"If you steal drugs, you should be able to charge for them".
There, much better.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
What if you invent diseases?
Well, viruses.
Well, a platform that viruses thrive on.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
Well, with all Bill Gates philanthropy stuff he does today...sometimes we need to be reminded he's still evil ;)
"A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
If there's anyone I hate more than stupid people, it's intellectuals.
Cos this makes no sense. It makes no sense.
And we all know what that means.
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
This sort of "article" is just flame bait. It doesn't provide any new information nor does it push any sort of point with facts or clarity.
Sure, but he has a problem with some people choosing to not charge for them?
Conversely, if you basically steal the idea that other people have come up with, and implement them in a proprietary manner, you shouldn't go around claiming you invented it.
The list of things that MS basically borrowed or copied from Xerox, UNIX, Apple, and general computing research is basically
Mostly I just remember things like Kerberos being hijacked, made incompatible, and claimed as their own invention. Fuck, they'd pretend to have invented TCP/IP if they'd been successful in forcing everyone else to adopt their version of it.
Not to Bill Gates: We disagree too.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
You are sooo right.
Because if somebody else invents better drugs to give away for free, you're sunk.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
'Open source, he said, creates a license 'so that nobody can ever improve the software'
I've been using Linux since pre kernel 1.0 days. This explains why there is still no IDE support and I am stuck with that damn A.OUT executable format. I really wish they'd at least add support for more than VGA graphics. I know it's asking a lot, but I'd also like DVD and USB support.
There's a shocker ya.
Of course Gates is going to support M$ and its business model. To do otherwise would be harmful to the company's shareholders, including himself.
Their argument is based off a strictly capitalist view. If you consider the notion that there is no way to claim your work as your own once it is under the GPL and generate a profit directly from it, in this world view, it's a waste. They see GPL as a trap where once entered, there is no escape.
This view is flawed because it assumes there is no such thing as altruism, and that shared benefit from availability can't outweigh the potential benefit of carefully planned and limited sharing. This kind of idea comes from Economists who take the tragedy of the commons and the failures of universal communism to ridiculous extremes, making rules out of specific observations. Society is created from compromises and sharing, and open source is about developing a healthy society amongst developers.
That said, I do personally like to be able to release closed source versions of things, and allow others to do the same. The BSD and Eclipse licenses appeal to me more than the GPL.
Can I improve Windows? Unlikely. Not without getting a job there and spending several years moving up the ranks to be in a position where I can fix* things.
Can I improve Linux? Yes*
Why? Because the source code is there for me to play with and fix the bugs* in the software. I can't do this with Windows. I can file a bug report and perhaps they might fix it in a service pack or just write back and say it's intentional.
*Granted, what I think is an improvement might be a step back in someone else's opinion, but at least I have the choice. Like Neo did.
Summation 2
Mod Gates -1: Troll.
Also note that he re-defined Free Software, confusing it wizh Freeware. He's either dumb or malicious, and considering his track record, I'm inclined to say that doesn't have to be an xor.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
He went back to the analogy of pharmaceuticals: 'I think if you invent drugs, you should be able to charge for them,' he said, adding with a shrug: 'That may seem radical."
Sure, so who cares if a few million die as a result. You made your money!
Ask most successful business men about if they would rather own something completely or have a market where there is healthy competition, and most will tell you that they will do anything to block competitors.
So if we look at the GPL and many other open source licenses we have a problem where the intellectual property can not be completely controlled. Now in a market where you can make money by fairly offering support and ancillary services why would they view this as bad?
If you own the intellectual property behind a product you have the ability to 'strike out'. You can screw up marketing, sales, development, etc and still be protected from someone else doing the same thing better. But if you sell services for GPL/Open products you have to conduct business the 'proper way', and deliver a better product then your competitors.
I'm not trying to bash the windows here, as if you look at Bill's investment work outside of Microsoft he tends to do the same thing; look for something that he can take 100% ownership of a marketplace. And I doubt you will find too many CEOs of large companies who would not take the chance to do the exact same thing. Even though most of these people have business/economics knowledge of how capitalism should work with healthy competition & innovation; they would much rather be unmerciful and dominate to make more money now, and find a way to be charitable, or 'play nice' later. Basically if they can own it, they will, and if something stands in their way they will try to crush it, denounce it, or produce FUD against it.
He sits there with that eight hundred pound disaster known as Vista and then thinks he has still has some position in the community to poo-poo another development model? Well, at least he's not calling the FOSS community communists any more, and for all that "squandering" it's pretty amazing just where you'll find open source, including on Windows boxes.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Did Gates just compare Windows to drugs? huh?
So all the jokes about MS giving software to schools cheaply like a drug dealer are right?
After that, I can't think straight....
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
the GP post never mentioned wanting tesco to give away food.
... wait for it ... FREE! So do you think it right that tesco tell you you CAN'T produce food from your own garden and either use it yourself or give it to friends?
However, if you have a back garden, you can grow potatoes for
Open source, he said, creates a license 'so that nobody can ever improve the software
That is an incomplete statement. How about we add a little bit to it: Open source, he said, creates a license 'so that nobody can ever improve the software to make money off the original work they got for free
There, that's more like it. When you realize that's the "complete sentence" that's running through his head, it makes sense. Fortunately, not everyone thinks that way. Just because you can't improve GPL'd software to make a profit, does not mean you cannot improve it.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Well considering that he considers Vista an improvement to XP, I am certainly happy that GPL prevents people from "improving" the software...
'I think if you invent drugs, you should be able to charge for them,' he said, adding with a shrug: 'That may seem radical."
Well if I invent the cure for AIDs then I can't give it away? And I can't license my drug patent so that it can't be used unless you plan on giving it away. I realize that selfless acts do seem radical to him. The tax write benefits and goodwill generated by any company agreeing to the terms would be priceless. They would go down in history as the company that saved Africa. Bill Gates is being either a short sighted idiot, or a greedy lying sob. I can't decide which.
Just seeing the title reminded me of the family guy episode with the drive by arguments
*while driving*
Bill G: 'Hey Steve, that looks like that young upstart Stallman who's been touting the benefits of open source software'
Steve B: 'oh yes, lets get him!'
Bill Gates: 'Oh Richard!.... WE DISAGREE!'
*speeds off*
Open source does not have a corporate cost associated with it.
Yes it does. The biggest contributors to Open Source and Free Software are large corporations like Red Hat, IBM, Novell, and Sun. They do it because they don't make their money on that software specifically, but products and services based on it. By sharing contributions, they also receive contributions in return, and are able to make a better product, and more money.
Companies do pay for it. They pay for it because they get value in return.
But all businesses face competition, and the most devastating tends to be from competitors who follow different business models. Clones are much easier to see off.
The most interesting thing here is Gates acknowledges the competition and is starting to fight [more]. Entirely following Ghandi's script: "First they ignore you, then they laught at you, then they fight you, then you win."
That's one area where (commercial) software development and pharma are a bit closer. Most pharama companies spend significantly more on marketing than on R&D - Merck, for example spent $7.6 billion on marketing vs $4.9 billion on R & D, according to their 2007 10-K filing. Microsoft, similarly, spent $11.5 billion on marketing and $7.1 billion on R & D.
You can think of open source software as being mostly the other way around. There's significantly more spent on development (in terms of donated time, resources, etc) than on marketing.
He must know a lot about the drug business. If you get them hooked on a free sample, you can charge whatever you want, and your users end up "stealing" to get their fix in the end!
stuff |
On the desktop FOSS does go after a mature established market. On the server and appliance side it is very innovative. Xen and KVM are innovators in virtualization. Linux and BSD are innovators in appliance and embedded space. JeOS is an innovative idea. FOSS has spawned some innovative business models that wouldn't have been considered a decade ago. Business have innovated on top of FOSS to create billions of dollars in revenue and tons of high paying jobs.
Actually, his definition of "nobody" is pretty simple. Anyone who doesn't contribute to Microsoft's bottom line is a nobody.
Ballmer has made that clear, by committing to the end of life for Windows XP even though, Vista in his words is "a work in progress". Moving everyone to Vista contributes to Microsoft's bottom line and nobody important (i.e. anyone outside of Microsoft that doesn't contribute to their bottom line) disagrees.
His example with the pharmaceutical companies points exactly to this mindset. Most of the new drugs created today are "lifestyle drugs" instead of drugs that actually cure your illness. In the former, you're on the hook for multiple payments for years. In the later, you just pay once. Universities or University Hospitals that actually focus on finding a cure tend to follow the collaboration model since reputation gives you tons of benefits, and it gives society tons of benefits. For profit pharmaceutical companies care more about lock-in to squeeze as much out of their clients as possible for as long as possible and use various techniques (like patenting a minor variation once the original patent expires) to extend the life of the patent. Without Generic Pharma, the "nobody"s of the world would be on the hook forever and without both them and University Hospitals, no actual improvement in the pharmaceuticals would happen because any improvement that lowers costs or reduces the need for the pharmaceuticals would hurt the bottom line, even though it would benefit society.
Similarly, no-one can improve Windows XP except for Microsoft. If Microsoft wants to kill Windows XP and move you to Vista and you have no choice but to use Windows. It sucks to be you. You or anyone other that Microsoft (e.g. Sun, Apple, IBM, etc) can improve Windows XP with any feature that you need from Vista (if there is such a thing) or Linux or Mac OSX.
is paid for by taxpayers. NIH and universities do an awful lot of the research that big pharma repackages into drugs which we pay obscene amounts for. Also unfortunately, big pharma commissions lots of study's and only publishes the ones that are favorable. How many times do I have to read about a new drug that had prior studing buried by NDA's that showed it was lethal, but the study wasn't shown to the FDA. I appreciate the drug companies do some good work. It's a pity it is clouded by all the bad things they have done. I'd also like to prescription drugs prohibited from advertising on TV/web.
How's that working out for you? Find a cure for HIV yet? Dengue? Marburg? Ebola? BSV? Malaria even?
Dr. Salk managed to find a vaccine for Polio without these expensive toys. When asked about the patent for his vaccine, he is quoted as saying:
Help stamp out iliturcy.
My girlfriend is in starting premed and the fees are already over the top. After med-school, do I really see her working for free? Hell no.
Oh, working for a great cause sounds fantastic, but it is not realistic given the amount of debt that you are in, coming out of school.
Your argument on equipment is quite silly - and is a logical fallacy. Just because you have a couple of examples where people did not use them does not necessarily invalidate their use.
A lot may be achieved without the gear, but a lot more can be achieved with them. It's called progress.
Those people (doctors sans frontiers) are there for charity - and I've heard of enough heartbreak cases from them, as well.
Do you have a more coherent argument than bringing up examples of someone who did something contrary and saying that just because these people do, everyone else must?
If anything, I'm proud of capitalism. If I do something, why shouldn't I be expected to be rewarded for it? If I develop a cure, what is wrong in asking people to pay for it? If anything, the system promotes competition and ensures that the brightest rise to the top.
Now, there may be exceptions and there may be people who have done great things without any help. But even these people (like Mr. Torvalds) need a day job where they can get paid for what they do.
I do not understand your comment on quality people because quality people may find ways of expressing themselves, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't ask to be paid for it.
Billy Gate:
What's this? What this? Documentury?
Man right here, this is my business, you know? Sueing, scamming, whatever . .
It's slow, you know? Business is off, sales are down.
Seems like half my customers . . they don't even need me anymore.
They;re getting software free, off the web.
How am I supposed to compete with that?
Got IT? Well next time something works, don't blame Microsoft!
We didn't do it!
I wish we did . . .
there would be no evil profit-killing generic drugs. Yay Closed Source!
No, seriously, Gates chose probably the worst analogy he could possibly make. I mean, comparing closed source software developers to the kinds of companies which gouge people in need as much as they can? The kinds of corporations directly responsible for things such as the lack of proper medications in the poorer countries in the world? (because although there's often enough money to manufacture the drugs they have patents and hence international monopolies, which means even if they give the drugs away for free there's a limited supply since no one else is allowed to make them)
Basically our esteemed William used the worst possible example of the dirty side of Capitalism to characterize Closed Source software. Oops!
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
Some jackass moded you -1 offtopic. It's pretty clear nobody bothered to read BillG's speech and understand the context. But then, this is slashdot.
The relevant parts:
He also pointed to one specific problem that he'd like to take a shot at: getting pharmaceutical companies to develop drugs for the infectious diseases that plague billions of people in the developing world. The track record is horrible, and familiar. While billions of dollars have yielded treatments for baldness and erectile dysfunction, Gates said, there's comparatively little on the shelf for malaria, tuberculosis or HIV.
Even the treatments that do pop up are more dumb luck than dedication. The anti-worm treatments that have proven so effective for humans against Guinea worm, for instance, were only developed because Americans and other first-worlders wanted a way to keep their dogs worm-free. "Luckily it worked for humans", too, Gates noted
The core problem seemed to intrigue Gates, who offered it as "a paradox": If a drug company ever invents a treatment for something like malaria, it'd be immediately beset by calls to give the drug away. "So they choose never to work in those areas," he noted sympathetically. "The current incentive system isn't doing it."
In other words, his point is, companies need to be profitable to exists. They need to be able to charge for their products, their IP, etc. They might want to do the right thing, but they can't do it at the expense of profits. Somebody needs to figure out how to bridge the disconnect between "doing the right thing/goodwill" and profitability.
And no, open source doesn't solve this problem. It has it's place, but this isn't it. Specifically, BillG was asked if he would consider open source uses in health research. It goes directly against his point that profit-making is the primary incentive for any company. If a company wants to provide healthcare solutions, and charge for the software, and keep their IP to themselves there's nothing wrong with that. Their whole incentive to be in the space is profits. They just need to figure out how to be profitable and do the right thing.
Of course, there are many companies with open source models that are profitable - but that still doesn't necessarily apply to the healthcare segment. For example, if you need to spend millions of dollars to create s/w to model protein folding, you want to be able to recover the investment. If you can't monetize the investment, your incentive to do the R&D is drastically reduced!