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US Court Orders Company to Use Negative Keywords

A US court has ordered a firm to utilize negative adwords in their internet advertising. "Orion Bancorp took Orion Residential Finance (ORF) to court in Florida over ORF's use of the word 'Orion' in relation to financial services and products, arguing that it had used the term since 2002 and had held a trade mark for it since then. [...] The judge in the case went further, though, restraining ORF from 'purchasing or using any form of advertising including keywords or "adwords" in internet advertising containing any mark incorporating Plaintiff's Mark, or any confusingly similar mark, and shall, when purchasing internet advertising using keywords, adwords or the like, require the activation of the term "Orion" as negative keywords or negative adwords in any internet advertising purchased or used.'"

54 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. Orion, that's definitely a unique name.... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Orion's overrated anyway. They should change their name to BoÃtes.

    1. Re:Orion, that's definitely a unique name.... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry, I should've probably also included a link. However, one would expect that, of any websites, /. would support more than just basic latin characters....

    2. Re:Orion, that's definitely a unique name.... by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Informative

      fyi Bootes is a constellation with the giant void.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootes

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    3. Re:Orion, that's definitely a unique name.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      What do you expect with Perl crap from the early 90s, you think they've heard of unicode and character encoding?

    4. Re:Orion, that's definitely a unique name.... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think a whitelist would be the correct approach here - most of the BMP and certain mathematical symbols would be good candidates. And they would certainly be useful.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  2. Editors please Edit! by alta · · Score: 3, Funny

    The judge in the case went further, though, restraining ORF from 'purchasing or using any form of advertising including keywords or 'adwords' in internet advertising containing any mark incorporating Plaintiff's Mark, or any confusingly similar mark, and shall, when purchasing internet advertising using keywords, adwords or the like, require the activation of the term 'Orion' as negative keywords or negative adwords in any internet advertising purchased or used. Do you realize how long this sentence is? Fine for court documents, but not for a casual news site.
    --
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    1. Re:Editors please Edit! by travdaddy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do you realize how long this sentence is? Fine for court documents, but not for a casual news site.

      It's fine, we're all very adept lawyers here.

      --
      Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
    2. Re:Editors please Edit! by gbjbaanb · · Score: 4, Funny

      ok. translation for the modern generation:

      "you know dude, you been naughty. like stop it, k"

      will that do ya?

    3. Re:Editors please Edit! by techpawn · · Score: 5, Informative

      Translation:
      The judge in the case went further, though, restraining
      IF
      restraining ORF from 'purchasing or using any form of advertising including keywords ||
      ('adwords' in internet advertising containing any mark incorporating Plaintiff's Mark &&
      hall, when purchasing internet advertising using keywords, adwords or the like, require the activation of the term 'Orion' as negative keywords) ||
      negative adwords in any internet advertising purchased or used.
      END

      I may need to debug that...

      --
      Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    4. Re:Editors please Edit! by alta · · Score: 2, Informative

      thanks, that helps.

      --
      Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
    5. Re:Editors please Edit! by gnick · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do you realize how long this sentence is? Fine for court documents, but not for a casual news site. Sometimes, due either to an attempt to communicate a complicated idea or the desire to expand on a simple idea ad nauseum for novelty purposes, a sentence will carry on for extended lines and, if properly authored by an individual using simple words and eschewing obfuscation, it will not necessarily be difficult for the general public to understand, even without the assistance of a lawyer, translator, or advanced Communications degree.
      --
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    6. Re:Editors please Edit! by Hatta · · Score: 5, Funny

      They're lucky that's the only long sentence given by the judge.

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    7. Re:Editors please Edit! by Daffy+Duck · · Score: 3, Funny

      Also, not enough people think they're not smart or don't think that they aren't smart or are not smarter than they don't think.. wait, what was the question again?

    8. Re:Editors please Edit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Also, sometimes people dro letters, from the ends of words, and use, too many, commas.

    9. Re:Editors please Edit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It scares me that I understood that.

      I need a woman, NOW.

    10. Re:Editors please Edit! by SingerGuy59 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The magnitude of your copious assertion is far to sagacious for my diminutive comprehension.

    11. Re:Editors please Edit! by timster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sometimes they are; that's why we have paragraphs. Given this particular sentence as an example, your excuse in insufficient as the thoughts being expressed are not complex at all.

      The correct defense of this particular sentence is that it is written in legalese. I'm anything but a lawyer, but even I understand the need for judicial orders to be written in a very specific style designed to minimize any possible confusion of meaning. The result is not always particularly clear as English.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    12. Re:Editors please Edit! by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Funny

      Legal rulings are like genie wishes (or is that the other way around...).

      As soon as you hit the period, you get your wish. Usually corrupted in a horribly unforeseen way.

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      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    13. Re:Editors please Edit! by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Funny

      What?

      Many words OK.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    14. Re:Editors please Edit! by popmaker · · Score: 4, Funny

      I need a woman, NOW. Well, if you REALLY want something incomprehensible, fine, go ahead.
  3. Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by writerjosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is unfortunate. The courts should have no jurisdiction over someone's stupidity. Using the name "Orion" in your company name is just asking for trouble. It's such a popular and recognizable term. OB and ORF shouldn't be surprised when someone steps on their toes once in awhile. OB acts like it invented the term despite the fact that it's been around for thousands of years.

    And then with the courts stepping in and forcing ORF to not use the term in their advertising is playing favorites to OB. I can only imagine that this decision puts a serious dent in ORF's bottom line. If ORF was calling themselves "Kleenex" or some other brand name, that would be understandable, but "Orion?" Come on. OB shouldn't be crying foul when they should've known there would be confusion with the name "Orion." They need to grow up and play ball the old fashion way: may the best man win.

    1. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by JustOK · · Score: 5, Funny

      Plus, everyone knows the Orion is a satire/parody website.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Funny

      The bank one should change their name to "Orien's Moneybelt".

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    3. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Orion" isn't the first term you'd use to describe a financial services company, though, and as soon as you use a non-descriptive word to identify your business you're in the realm of trademark law. Trademark law looks for risk of confusion, which is imaginable in this case. They shouldn't have been able to sue a business called "Orion candy", for example.

      Nolo Press has a good book about trademarks, and one of the examples they give of a common word turning into a protectable trademark is "Diesel: a bookstore". "Diesel" is a pretty common word but uncommon when applies to bookstores.

    4. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by thebdj · · Score: 4, Informative

      If ORF was calling themselves "Kleenex" or some other brand name, that would be understandable Actually, thanks to a little something known as genericized trademark, they actually wouldn't be in too much trouble if their name were Kleenex. It could be easily argued that Kleenex is genericized since the word is almost synonymous with tissues now. Trademark law works quite interesting in that manner. If you do not properly defend your mark and it becomes "generic" then your rights to the mark could be lost. (Now, if only we adopted a similar measure with Patents but that is a different story.)
      --
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    5. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OB and ORF shouldn't be surprised when someone steps on their toes once in awhile. OB acts like it invented the term despite the fact that it's been around for thousands of years.

      The trademark is obviously restricted to banking and finance. It's not like they'd get the same judgment against "Orion Tiddlywink Company'. They don't have to invent the name; that is a rather modern contrivance in which companies change their name to make up a vaguely positive sounding fake name, like a cancer merchant changing their name to Altria or a baby Bell changing its name to Verizon. Historically, companies have used existing names or words to denote their company, and trademark law has specific protections for that. The whole point is to provide protection to companies who use a specific name in a certain tradespace without letting them "own" the name.

    6. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by DECS · · Score: 4, Informative

      Anytime a trademark gets an indefinite article, it's in risk of being a common term.

      Nobody is likely to ask a friend for "Kleenex," hoping to get a specific brand of tissue, but it is common to ask for "a kleenex," just as somebody might ask for "a bandaid."

      People in various places also refer to "a frigidaire" or "a coke," and plenty of terms that started out as trademarks have been lost to common words: aspirin, cellophane, dumpster, escalator, nylon, linoleum, thermos, velcro, zipper.

    7. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by DECS · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's in the title of a Prince song, so presumably it's a poetic reference to a vagina.

    8. Re:Orion Bankcorp: Crybabies by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Coke is weird though. I've tried to order "Cola" at places where I'm unsure which one they serve (and on the off chance I might luck out and they carry RC for some reason...) and I get funny looks everywhere.

      It's gotten to the point that using the correct term does little more than make you look (and feel) like a pedantic jerk.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  4. Its perfectly reasonable by Zeinfeld · · Score: 5, Informative
    There was a pretty clear claim for trademark infringement here. The court very reasonably found that ORF was trading on Orion's reputation.

    Having made that finding the court is quite reasonably penalizing ORF. It is quite reasonable for an injunction to penalize ORF after they clearly took advantage of Orion's reputation.

    And any company that does not show up in court when served with papers is likely to find that they end up saddled with onerous terms in any case.

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    1. Re:Its perfectly reasonable by quarterbuck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It is true that ORF did not turn up in court. It is also true that there is a reasonable trademarks dispute with two firms that have similar names and sell similar products.
      That said, the idea of negative adwords is a bad idea. If there is a valid trademark dispute, ORF should be forced to pay restitution to Orion or forced to change the name. But. now due to the negative keywords ruling, even if ORF changes its name to Uranus corporation, they still are bound not to advertise on a page where user searches for Orion. They essentially cannot offer their services to a user who is searching for Orion.
      This is similar to saying that in a newspaper where there is a news article about Netscape, Microsoft should not be allowed to advertise just because in the past Microsoft played dirty with Netscape.

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    2. Re:Its perfectly reasonable by Pharmboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except that "fair use" of a trademark applies, as in, you have the right to use a trademark when comparing your product to another. Pepsi can use the trademarked term "Coke" when comparing the taste of their product to Coke, all perfectly legal. Even though the names are not similar, under this judge's (flawed) interpretation of the law, Pepsi couldn't use "compare taste of coke" or "coke vs pepsi" in their advertising tags, which would normally be considered a fair use of the term.

      If the one company has the term trademarked, then yes, the other must tread lightly when using the term. As to using the negative in the ad terms, that is just insanely stupid. This will only serve to provide LESS comparisons of competition, instead of doing what the law was designed to do: clear up any confusion in the marketplace.

      --
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    3. Re:Its perfectly reasonable by rudy_wayne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Because, as I understand it, they have permission from Coke to do so."
      Your understanding is wrong. It's perfectly legal for Pepsi to say "we're better than Coke". No permission from Coke is needed. It would be condsider fair use.

      On the other hand, notice how most advertisements will say that their product is 10% better than "the other leading brand"
      There's a reason for this. It's called marketing bullshit. If you say "we are 10% better than XYZ" someone can do their own tests to show that you are lying. But if you just say "leading brand" -- what does that mean? How do you even determine what the "leading brand" is? It's meaningless and nobody can really prove that you are lying. It's marketing bullshit.

    4. Re:Its perfectly reasonable by CowboyBob500 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, its perfectly unreasonable. Reasonable would be to let both parties trade as they are. Both companies have different names (Orion Bancorp vs Orion Residential Finance), just that one word within those names happens to be the same. It's like Blue Banking Corporation claiming ownership of the word Blue over Blue Finance LLC. Ridiculous.

      Recently I happened to release an album on iTunes music store. It takes 28 days to get put up there. Unfortunately another band with the same name released their album the day after mine, though they couldn't have known in advance of the name clash. Both albums are in the same genre. However, after a couple of e-mails back and forth we resolved the thing amicably by deciding that both bands would continue to use the same name, even though technically I could have forced them to change their name as I was there one day earlier.

      Legal doesn't necessarily mean reasonable
      Being right doesn't necessarily mean reasonable

      Sometimes people need to take a step back and realise that.

  5. Misinterpreting negative by Bovius · · Score: 5, Funny

    When I first read the post, for some reason I thought "negative keywords" meant they had to advertise under keywords that people wouldn't want, like "really bad financial service" or "shady loan company" or "housing lemons".

  6. My interpretations: by Alzheimers · · Score: 4, Funny

    1) Company must now register and pay for the keywords "Dummy", "Poopiehead", "Fartsniffer", and "Boogerbrains"

    or

    2) Company must now register keywords that, when combined with their intended keywords, nullify each other out, like Semantic anti-matter.

    or

    3) Company may only use keywords that have a value less than zero.

    1. Re:My interpretations: by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Company may only use keywords that have a value less than zero
      Well, someone finally solved it:

      1. Get sued for trademark infringement
      2. Get court to force you to buy negative keywords (which value is less than zero)
      3. Profits!

    2. Re:My interpretations: by WK2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just because you buy something with value less than zero, doesn't mean that you get paid money for accepting it. Windows Vista, for example.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
  7. I smell a Loop hole by techpawn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Negative Keywords" is a Google term. Excluded Keywords the Yahoo term. The judge specifically said "negative keywords or negative adwords". So does this reach across to OTHER search engines? I would hope so and that Google has a case on their hands if they had "Negative keywords" trademarked...

    --
    Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    1. Re:I smell a Loop hole by elb · · Score: 4, Informative
      Forget RTFA, did you even read the original post?

      "and shall, when purchasing internet advertising using keywords, adwords or the like, require the activation of the term 'Orion' as negative keywords or negative adwords in any internet advertising purchased or used".


      the judge specifically said "internet advertising". and s/he used the phrase "keywords, adwords, or the like". to suggest that the ruling applies only to google adwords is flagrant trolling. i don't know how anyone could possibly interpret the statement in the ruling as being constrained to google.

      sheesh. how this got modded "interesting" is beyond me.
  8. Re:Appeal in 3..2..1.. by jeiler · · Score: 5, Informative

    Under normal circumstances I'd agree completely, but since ORF didn't show up at court, their odds of winning an appeal are slim to none.

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  9. Aye Matey, forget Orion, call yourself Booties by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 3, Funny

    as in Pirate Booty or Booties plural.

    Pirate Booties Bankcorp

    You can hire Maddox to be your spokesperson.

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  10. Bad precedent by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think this sets a bad precedent. The internet is a global mechanism, and I think this has the potential to start a land grab for "confusing" names. Just as an example, how many "Golden Dragon" Chinese restaraunts are there in the entire US? Or Golden Pheasants? Or Red Dragons? Or all three in the same city? Who sues to get a lock on "Golden" and who ensures that no one else anywhere can use "Dragon"?

    And don't even get me started on AA Locksmiths, AAA Locksmiths, and AAAA Locksmiths...

    --
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    1. Re:Bad precedent by Tanktalus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I doubt this sets any precedent. This is not new or novel or even unexpected. The only news for nerds here is the judge explicitly calling out search advertising. Otherwise, it's entirely predictable (the way laws and courts should be).

      The Orions had both overlapping goods/services AND they had overlapping sales regions.

      Golden Dragon restaurant in downtown L.A. does not compete with Golden Dragon in Manhattan. There is no confusion arising from the re-use of that name. Now, if there were a Golden Dragon *chain* restaurant, the rules may change. But not much. First come, first serve, as far as that trade mark and the area it is used in. You can't form a chain called "Golden Dragon restaurants" and try to push that Manhattan restaurant out (but you can try to buy it).

    2. Re:Bad precedent by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who sues to get a lock on "Golden" and who ensures that no one else anywhere can use "Dragon"?
      No one. Trademarks are also tied to their markets; there is no trademark infringement when markets do not collide.

      Hence, Golden Dragon in Decatur IL has no standing to sue Golden Dragon in Kissimee FL for trademark infringement.

      Once case recently illustrating this was Trump's trademark of "You're Fired" in classes 9 and 16 (I believe; not sure if there were other classes also) nationwide; there was a pottery shop of the same name in Chicago that sold goods in classes 9 and 16 prior to Trump's trademark application. They ended up settling for an undisclosed amount, but basically the pottery shop owner already had the trademark (though unregistered) in Chicago, so Trump was out of luck.

      To get back to the Golden Dragon example, someone trying to register "Golden Dragon" nationwide (say, if they were starting a chain) would need to negotiate with restaurants of that name in order to supplant their existing trademark.
      --
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  11. I don't think so by wsanders · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I mean, "apple" and "America" are pretty generic terms, but I suspect if I started a company called "Apple Microcomputers" and "Mortgage Bank of America" I'd get some phone calls real soon, and they wouldn't be from customers.

    Ah well, they should just change their name to "YA Bankrupt Fly-By-Night Mortgage Broker" and be done with it.

    --
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  12. Re:Never heard of those Orions... by JasonKChapman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Except that Orion Pictures doesn't sell financial services. ORF does, which is why the complaint carried weight. The two companies have overlapping areas of business interest. It's not just the use of a trademarked term, it's use of it in such a way that it could cause confusion for potential customers and cost the plaintiff money.

    over ORF's use of the word 'Orion' in relation to financial services and products
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  13. Re:Never heard of those Orions... by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If pressed to think of a non-constellation use of Orion, I think of Orion Pictures Those are two different industries and hence one wouldn't be confusing Orion Bankcorp with Orion Pictures. So that situation isn't really analogous to two financial companies both using Orion in their name.

    These banks prolly ought not mess with movie folks over things like trademarks and copyrights... Even if Orion Pictures was still around, which it's not, they wouldn't be able to win a suit against either Orion Bankcorp or Orion Residential Finance.
    You might want to do some reading on trademark law before you post next time.
  14. Re:The Wrong Cachet by JasonKChapman · · Score: 2, Funny

    I guess "Onion Residential Finance" would bring a tear. Only in appeal.
    --
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  15. Re:There goes my dreams of an Orion Blastar Bankco by mea37 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're thinking of copyright concepts. This is a trademark issue. Trademark has nothing to do with being creative or original -- it only has to do with distinctive identification of goods and/or services.

    In short, there's no reason Orion couldn't be a protected mark. The court found that it is, and I see no particular reason to think they'd get this wrong. That being the case, telling them they can't advertise under that mark is pretty much normal operation of trademarks.

    Requiring negative adwords seems a bit punitive ("since you've chosen to profit off confusion, you now must take extra care to eliminate confusion")... not sure if that's common, but what do you expect when you don't bother to show up?

  16. what? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2, Funny

    IANAL

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    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  17. Re:Never heard of those Orions... by DarthJohn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    similar to how Linus owns the trademark Linux when applied to software, and somebody else owns the trademark Linux when applied to laundry detergent.

    Different domain, different trademark.

    Heh... that summary says there are over 200 different trademarks for the term Linux.

  18. Comparative Advertising by Mawginty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The reason this injunction is so bad is that it explicitly forbids comparative advertising. You know how in the grocery store they shelve the Campbell's soup next to the store's off-brand label? That's similar to buying the trademarks of your competitors as keywords. That way, both products come up in the search results and the consumer gets to investigate both and determine which she would like to buy. That benefits the market by giving consumers more information, exactly the kind of thing that trademark law should promote.

    I realize that the First Amendment doesn't protect commercial speech to the extent that it protects other kinds of speech, but this seems exactly like the kind of commercial speech the First Amendment should protect. You can't sell an off-brand product if you are not allowed to say, "We're cheaper than the brand name!"

  19. Who remembers (2:erocS)? by tepples · · Score: 4, Informative

    What do you expect with Perl crap from the early 90s, you think they've heard of unicode and character encoding? Actually, yes they have. People were abusing left-to-right and right-to-left control characters it to destroy the layout of Slashdot comment pages, including spoofing a comment's score. Open this comment and show the hidden replies to see an example of what was going wrong. So the developers modified the SLASH software to strip out all Unicode characters that aren't on a whitelist.