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Who Owns Software?

Posted by kdawson on from the can't-interoperate dept.

SeeSp0tRun writes to remind us of Blizzard's lawsuit against MDY Industries over the Glider cheat. It seems that Blizzard is pushing it even further. They're trying out the legal theory that a software creator retains complete control over how a program is used, meaning that anyone who uses it in a different way could be found guilty of copyright infringement, at $750 a pop. The EFF and Public Knowledge are among the organizations trying to assure that the court doesn't set a really bad precedent here.

35 of 531 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Obvious answer! by neokushan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In case anyone's wondering, I'm being extremely sarcastic here.
    However, my absurdly ridiculous response is only half as ridiculous as what Blizzard is trying to say here.

    --
    +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
  2. How it's used? by CannonballHead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They want to keep the rights to how it is used? Hm. Does that mean they are responsible for how it is used, then? If someone uses it "wrong" and "hurts" me, does that mean I can sue the developer, since he is the one in charge of how it is used?

    1. Re:How it's used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If we're to pay them for using it in ways we're not supposed to, then can we get payed every time their software does not work exactly the way its supposed to and crashes or messes up my system?

    2. Re:How it's used? by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Preserving copyright but trimming it down just won't work. Young people today are used to getting the music, films or (in some cases, like chess resources or language courses) books at no cost through Bittorrent or other Internet resources. This is becoming normal in every country where children grow up with broadband. If you preserve the copyright system, you're going to have a law that you can't enforce until you want to consider the average man a criminal.

      Some countries are already adjusting to new realities, with places like Hong Kong enjoying thriving entertainment industries in spite of the fact no one buys legitimate media. In Europe, the best films of recent decades and a great deal of art music were realized thanks to support from state arts ministries. The sooner the U.S. gets with the programme, the better.

    3. Re:How it's used? by spicate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No work is copyrighted unless application is filed along with two copies in the Library of Congress This is ridiculous. The burden on newspapers and magazines - especially small independents - would be immense. I want my website content to be copy-righted. Also, imagine the storage demands...
    4. Re:How it's used? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Easy solution: You sell the software and I'll use it any way I damned well please, just as copyright law allows. If Blizzard gets away with this Congress needs to change copyright law.

      Sadly, if Blizzard gets their way, then the recording and movie industries will want their way.

      Something to the effect that playing a CD on a second CD player after I have already played it on the first CD player is illegal. Or, they'll get it in writing that there is no such thing as fair use, and the act of ripping a legally purchased CD to MP3s is now a Class A Felony.

      Absolutely nothing about how governments have handled copyright over the last bunch of years tells me that they wouldn't make the situation even worse. The people who pay the bills have the deck stacked in their favor.

      Thee and me? We don't count because we don't contribute enough to their campaigns -- and, they contribute to everyone's campaign.

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    5. Re:How it's used? by Aram+Fingal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...But all modern cars have embedded computer systems which help run components of the vehicle. Some of them must contain software which is subject to copyright and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a EULA among all that paperwork about the warranty. That's something to watch out for next time you buy a car.

    6. Re:How it's used? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The sooner the U.S. gets with the programme...

      ...state arts ministries... NEVER. The second the government sponsors our entertainment, they can (due to their rights as the source of funding) dictate what entertainment can and can't be made. Fuck. That. Shit.
      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    7. Re:How it's used? by sm62704 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      recording companies actually sell you licenses to listen to the songs on a CD

      If there's a license, then where's my copy of the license? When did I sign a license agreement to play my CD?

      I signed no agreement and clicked through no EULA. There is no license! With software, the license is debatable; I've been shown where under some circumstances EULAs can be enforceable (although I still doubt it), but when you buy a music CD you own the CD and are free to do anything you wish with it except distribute copies of it.

      Downloaded tracks are another matter entirely. When you "buy" from iTunes or any other online "store" you do indeed click an agreement. Rent DRM-infested, lossy music from iTunes instead of buying a CD? Just a bad decicion. Once you have the physical CD you can legally do as you damned well please with it (save distributing copies), including making MP3s for your iPod and copies of it for your car.

      Don't swallow the corporate bullshit. You still have a few rights, at least don't fight against them.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    8. Re:How it's used? by Black+Art · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is not a contract if one side can change the terms at a whim. With a non-free software license, they can change the terms at any time. Too many people try and claim that such things are covered by contracts when the terms do not resemble anything like a negotiated contract.

      Now they are saying that beyond just the right to use the product, they can tell you how and where you can use the product. They keep tightening the screws on the users until something breaks.

      The industry wants software treated like property when the terms favours them and a license when it favours them. You can't have it both ways.

      Such actions by companies only encourages unauthorized copying. "If you don't respect me, I won't respect you" works in the software world just as much as everywhere else.

      --
      "Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
  3. Does this mean by fredrated · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that if I open a paint can with a screwdriver, the screwdriver manufacturer can sue me?

  4. Good luck with that by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm no lawyer, but even I recognize that what they're talking about is simply a matter of contract law. You have your EULA, enforce it. It's not a matter of copyright law, no matter how convenient that would make things for them thanks to the insane penalties that accompany it.

    1. Re:Good luck with that by Hyppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing is, software companies are trying to use copyright law to enforce their EULAs, since they're quite aware of how flimsy a contract the EULA really is.

    2. Re:Good luck with that by poetmatt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because you pay for the service doesn't mean you can't use it any way you see fit. You absolutely can.

      Blizzard of course, can reject your business and has refund plans set up for that, but it's their responsibility to set and/or enforce whatever guidelines that they come up with; not the player's responsibilities.

  5. Retaining control of the usage by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Retaining control of software usage is semantically identical to a book publisher claiming that using a book they published as a prop for an uneven table leg is violating copyright.

    If a precedent is set to this effect, I would gladly advocate violating the "rights" of everyone involved in this decision. I really cannot understand why people like this are tolerated. Deport them. Imprison them. Kill them. But get rid of them.

  6. Watch for criminal manslaughter charges.... by GuyverDH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Blizzard wins this, then they are in effect responsible for all the deaths of WoW players from marathon gaming sessions. They would then need to prevent anyone from playing over a reasonable number of hours straight without breaks.

    If someone dies playing it, then it's how they intended the game to function, with manslaughter charges to follow...

    Granted, this is an extremist point of view, but if they are going to take charge of how the game is played, then they must take responsibility to all effects the game has on the gamer.

    You cannot take the right without the responsibility.

    --
    Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
  7. Interesting theory, there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    You cannot take the right without the responsibility.

    "should not" and "cannot" are two very different words.

    The wealthy can do all kinds of things they shouldn't be able to do. This business of suing you if you use "my" software in a way of which I disapprove, but being held blameless if you harm someone else by doing so, is a good example.

  8. RAM as a copy by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I really don't like the idea that a copy of software in memory could be considered a copy for purposes of copyright law. Given that the copy only lasts as long as the software is in use, and cannot be readily separated from the copy on disk, and also that it is absolutely necessary to create to actually use the software, this should be considered purely part of the technological process of viewing the software.

    Surely copyright law should only deal with those aspects of copying that affect distribution. Not use.

  9. Re:WTF by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I think you misread the quoted section. Blizzard is trying to claim that you are engaging in copyright infringement whenever portions of WoW get copied into RAM. Which is extremely ludicrous because of the fact that these portions of the program have to be copied into RAM to fucking run it. Here's from Public Knowledge:

    In this case, Blizzard is saying that any user who runs Glider while playing WoW is infringing Blizzard's copyrights. This is despite the fact that Glider doesn't make any copies of WoW. Instead, Blizzard claims that any time a user runs WoW, the copy of the game (or the portions of it) that are copied into RAM are infringements. Or, at least, they would be, but for the generosity of Blizzard, which grants users a license to make these RAM copies. Utter fucking lunacy.
  10. Re:This is what comes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After all, the woman who filed suit for burning herself crotch with a cup of coffee won (McDick's was found 80% responsible).
    Shut the fuck up with this stupid urban legend. That was a completely legitimate case. Morons like you HURT the cause of tort reform by spreading that fucking rumor.
  11. Another /. double standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    When SCO claimed that the GPL was invalid, /.ers were perfectly content to use the same logic that Blizzard is busting out now.

    Either you:
    (A) agree the EULA is enforceable, and then Glider is a contract violation.
    (B) claim the EULA is invalid, in which case you have no license to use the software, and then its a copyright violation.

    This was the same with SCO, except the license in question was the GPL.

  12. Re:This is getting stupid. by poetmatt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, it's still a grey area as far as accepting a EULA.

    Note on the wiki for EULA software licenses, that post-purchase licenses are have been ruled both ways before. I think this example applies to Blizzard, however:

    "In Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp., however, the licensee was able to download and install the software without first being required to review and positively assent to the terms of the agreement, and so the license was held to be unenforceable."

    You have the software before you agree, so I suspect it may not be enforceable. I'm not a lawyer, please correct me if I am wrong.

  13. Re:This is what comes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    They WERE, you illiterate cretin. And McDonald's knew it. Which is why it was a legit case. You're the lawyer fanboy here. You're the one making tort reform look bad.

  14. Online gaming sacrificed for greater good by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Basically, if Blizzard loses, then, they can't effectively stop cheating on their systems. That pretty much hoses their business. On the other hand, if Blizzard wins, then, software companies essentially get the right to decide who inter operates with them, and that's just a worldwide disaster.

    So, unfortunately, online gamers, but, gaming has to the needs of humanity for a free market. So, there's always going to be cheaters and you'll never really have an honest online game experience with strangers. About the best that Blizzard could do would be to try and have a secure link of some sort to dissuade developers from writing cheat-bots.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Online gaming sacrificed for greater good by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think glider DOES cheat. Let's face it--WoW is not a skill heavy game. The entire time I played I can think of only one or two things that actually involved practice and skill to pull off (I guess end game content is slightly skillful). The rest is just grinding and variations of grinding (quest grinding, instance grinding, etc).

      Basically WoW takes your time, and converts it into in game coolness--level, weapons, outfits, items, etc. Your time is basically the only game currency--when you eliminate the need to put in time, you're effectively cheating. No, you're not hacking the game code, or abusing the servers, but you ARE cheating.

  15. Re:IAAAL (I am almost a lawyer) but... by astrotek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It doesn't really damage the server but it probably damages the value of the game in the eyes of their customers.

  16. Re:This is what comes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    So you think McD has the right to burn everyone -once- as long as its a learning experience? We've got a smart one here.

  17. Re:Obvious answer! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree with the GGP, too. I'm so sick of the games software vendors are playing with licenses, EULAs, phoning home and other DRM, I find it much easier and more efficient to just steal the stuff.

    There are a surprising number of cases in my computing life where I've bought a legit license to software, but used the cracked version just because it doesn't fuck with me. In most cases, I don't have anything against the developer, so I don't want to steal from them, but I do not want to be fucked with and pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege.

    Since I'm well aware that I'm not exceptional, I have to assume other people do the same thing.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  18. please no! by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oh please, pretty please, let them win this one and set a precedent.

    I'm just dying for writing interesting EULAs that disallow you from using my software during full moon on thursdays if there is a cat in the house, or to write any letters that are stupid, or to access any website that contains the word "republican".

    Please. The more idiotic, stupid and obvious the rules get, the better our chances that they're reworked altogether, instead of simply being patched onto indefinitely.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  19. Re:Blizzard already lost.... by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

    eventually I'll go get bored with the rest of you :)

    I really tried very hard to persist and find interest in the game after lvl70. I got two toons to that level.

    I got into a raiding guild and did some raiding... and it was boring as hell.

    I went back to alts and thats actually interesting and exciting; there are still so many aspects of this game and areas that I have yet to explore. Its a huge world; see it from Horde and Alliance perspective.

    Using a cheat to get a toon to 70 is just a huge waste of time and money. Its the leveling process thats really interesting and where you actually learn to play.

    By having 'Glided' your way to 70 I am guessing that your ability to play your class will be about as good as someone who bought their account on ebay.

    In effect, you have cheated *yourself*.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  20. Re:Obvious answer! by Sparr0 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    And those of us who download Adobe Premiere Pro illegally never even see the serial number question... Hooray for keeping honest people pissed :)

  21. Re:Obvious answer! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, lorenzo, Steam is very nice. Thanks to them, I seldom have to resort to cracks and keygens for games any more. Their prices are reasonable, and their portal application is not obnoxious. More important, I can exit it completely and it doesn't leave any sticky processes hanging around my system, which is important, because I use my system for important work as well as occasional fun'n'games.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  22. Re:It's up to the developer and consumer by Technician · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I find it much easier and more efficient to just steal the stuff.

    I find it much easier and mor effecient to find software that meets my needs.

    If the developer wants to make crippleware and then try to get me to buy it, that's his choice. I make it very clear that doing this will kill sales. It's then up to the developer to balance the anal retentive need to prevent any piracy with the need to meet market demands to make sales.

    Some prime examples.. Microsoft Office. One license, one machine and maybe a laptop by the same owner. Open Office. One license, free to install on any and all machines in your house and free to give away copies (following license terms to distribute source and the license intact). Same for Photoshop and the Gimp.

    I picked up a copy of Light Factory. The original version had no copy protection other than encoding your user name into the installed product with an email registration. Your PC could be installed on your upgraded PC without phoning home. They then upgraded and used your hardware as a dongle like MS does with the WGA stuff. I didn't upgrade with Light Factory. I now use Freestyler.

    Then there is the choice of OS. Needless to say, I'm not running anything with WGA. (I'm not pirating it either)

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  23. Re:Obvious answer! by ryzvonusef · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I remember reading Harry Potter, where the goblin claim that all the items are the actually the property of the creator, that the wizards only rent for a lifetime, not buy it, and that wizards were actually stealing the items by not returning to the goblins after death, i read about it and thought "what a stupid idea, JK! in no world would THAT ever happen!" Now however, I have to chew my words, cause this is happening in my own world (BTW, does that make the software developers goblins ;-)

    --
    I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
  24. Re:Obvious answer! by kalirion · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd rather have Steam ask for permission than be forced to root around for the game disc. That's my favorite thing about Steam - not having to have the CD/DVD in the drive.

    The thing that annoys me the most is that recently it started ignoring the "Pause Updating" option. I wanna play CS:S, so I pause the TF2 update. As soon as I launch CS:S Steam stealthily unpauses the update, causing ping times of 1000+ for me (crappy little DSL connection). And I say "stealthily" because when I alt-tab out, it still says the updating is "paused" but when I unpause it it somehow jumped ahead by a few percentage points to completion. I have to unpause and then pause again and THEN I can go back to the game and actually play....

    Plus the ads are annoying (pop-ups? seriously?), and the games are priced at RETAIL prices. Hmm, I could spend the same amount of money and get the boxed version with manual at a store, or waste quite a few hours downloading a multi-gig title....