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Archive.org Defeats FBI's Demand For User Information

eldavojohn writes "Although we don't know what they were after due to the settlement, a gag order was just released that kept Internet Archive member Brewster Kahle quiet. The FBI had issued a national security letter to them under the Patriot Act. Kahle fought it. Hard. The EFF came to the aid of his lawyers and what resulted was one of the only three times an NSL has been challenged: all three have been rescinded. The FBI agreed to open some of the court files now for it to be public. The ACLU added, 'That makes you wonder about the the hundreds of thousands of NSLs that haven't been challenged.'"

20 of 224 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Stupid Questions by Gat0r30y · · Score: 4, Informative

    The first time one of these was challenged, I thought any judge worth their salt would declare the NSL anti-constitutional. Already happened To quote:

    In September 2004, Judge Victor Marrero of the Southern District of New York issued a landmark decision striking down the NSL statute and the associated gag provision. In striking down the gag provision, Judge Marrero wrote: "Democracy abhors undue secrecy. . . . [A]n unlimited government warrant to conceal, effectively a form of secrecy per se, has no place in our open society." The government has said it will appeal Judge Marrero's decision. Accordingly, the case is likely to be before the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in early 2005. So maybe someday it will get before an appeals court, and then maybe someday much later, there is the possibility it could go before the supreme court, if they would hear it. Then it could be struck down.
    --
    Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
  2. Re:Stupid Questions by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem is all the "ifs" in that. "If" the Supreme Court grants certiorari.... That's such a big "if" that it's not even funny.... They've proven remarkably resistant to any attempts to strike down challenges to the "Patriot" Act in the past, up to and including the refusal to grant standing for a challenge to anyone who could not prove that their privacy had been violated in the wire tapping case.

    There are just too many Bush nominees on the court for this to get struck down as unconstitutional. Bush could probably wipe his backside with the Constitution, then declare martial law and postpone the election and they probably wouldn't overrule him....

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  3. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.


    Personally, the voting record is more important to me than whether they have an R or D beside their name. If that means that I'm voting in Republicans then so be it. I'd rather have a Republican who refused to vote for the Patriot Act than a Democrat who dropped to his knees and pucked up to the Bush administration. Not that there are many Republicans who fit that description...

    Ron Paul is a republican who refused to vote for the Patriot Act.
  4. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Posting anonymously because I moderated your post down.

    I just wanted to explain why. I am sick of people acting persecuted and then hoping to get modded up for it. In actuality, ron paul has a lot of supporters, not that it mattered, your post was truthful and would probably have got +1 insightful from a few moderators.

    But because you put in that whiny last line, you get modded down. But I guess you're ok with that since you "expected" it and all.

  5. Some numbers and information on the NSL by solweil · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here is the URL of March 2007 " A Review of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Use of National Security Letters" published by the Office of the Inspector General. Note section IV, "Improper or Illegal Use of National Security Letter Authorities." http://cryptome.org/fbi-nsl/fbi-nsl.htm A link to the pdf is available there as well.

  6. Re:Stupid Questions by tjohns · · Score: 4, Informative

    I thought you couldn't discuss a NSL, so how would we know that hundreds of thousands of them have been issued?

    According to Wikipedia, semi-annual reports need to be made to congress, including a non-classified count of National Security Letters issued.

    The US Department of Justice also performed an audit in 2007 that contains some more statistics.

  7. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by wwahammy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nobody read it. The Senate received the bill at 6 AM for a 9 AM vote. The bill ran to hundreds of pages. Not one member of Congress could have read it and understood the consequences of the bill in less than 3 hours.

    Russ Feingold said at the time he wasn't necessarily opposed to the bill but couldn't vote for something with such sweeping changes without having time to read or research it. He has said since then that after reviewing it he supports about 95% of the things in the bill. He strongly opposes that other 5% that is total crap.

    Man I love having him as my Senator :)

  8. Incorrect. by 3p1ph4ny · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm not sure what kind of crack you're smoking, but Barack Obama voted to renew the PATRIOT act.

  9. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Grandparent's point was that Feingold was the only Senator to vote against it. There were also 66 Representatives who opposed it (mostly Democrats, but yes, including Ron Paul.)

  10. More info from EFF, ACLU and Internet Archive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative


    The court documents are available as well as other information.

    We hope this helps de-spook some of these demands and encourages other libraries and recipients to consult lawyers and consider their alternatives.

    http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=192021

  11. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by Maxmin · · Score: 5, Informative

    Obama didn't vote for either Patriot Act or the Iraq War ... because he wasn't in office at the time. He did, however, vote *against* reauthorizing the Patriot Act. He's also on the record opposing the Iraq War, though I don't have handy the details of his war appropriations voting record.

    Interesting factoid about the Patriot Act: it was passed in a hurry (we all know), and it was presented as legal tools for fighting terrorists. Now, I'd be fine with that, on the face of it - however, DOJ has been heavily promoting it as set of laws (and amendments to existing laws) for fighting crime. Yes, they are promoting to district attorneys etc. using all those bypass-the-constitution-anti-terrorism goodies to inspect the accounts and lives of people who aren't suspected of terrorism.

    In other words, the Patriot Act doubles as an end-run around the Constitution for ordinary criminal cases. When I mention this in conversation to folks, many of them say they think this is fine! I don't.

    --
    O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
  12. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by void* · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, the Senate approved the reauthorization unanimously.

    However, Congress is two parts, the Senate, and the House of Representatives.

    In the House of Representatives, Republicans voted 214 for, 14 against, Democrats 43 for, 156 against.

    --


    Code or be coded.
  13. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by zeroduck · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Patriot Act wasn't passed unanimously. Russ Feingold (D-WI) voted against it.

    Russ Feingold makes me proud to be from Wisconsin.

  14. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by irwinmrosen · · Score: 2, Informative

    Obama voted *FOR* reauthorizing the Patriot Act, and has consistently voted for funding the war. Funny how he claims to represent change but is really more of the same.

  15. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by Maxmin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yup, I got it wrong - it was Kucinich who voted against both. I misread a blog post summarizing Obama's floor speech on Patriot Act.

    --
    O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
  16. Re:Stupid Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    We don't need any change to the Constitution whatsoever to stop these abuses. We just need for the Constitution as written to be enforced. We lost that battle long ago. If we are going to enforce the Constitution, we're going to have to get rid of over half the federal government... including just about all of the most popular programs.

    For example: In the 1980s, Ronald Reagan got lots of bad press for wanting to get rid of the federal Department of Education. Since then, the Republicans have given up on that cause, and in fact, George W. Bush launched a (bipartisan) effort to massively expand its funding with "No Child Left Behind".

    But is a Department of Education even permitted by the Constitution? In 1792, James Madison argued before Congress that financing public education (among other things) was not a power of the federal government:

    "If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every state, county, and parish, and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision for the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress; for every object I have mentioned would admit of the application of money, and might be called, if Congress pleased, provisions for the general welfare."

    "The language held in various discussions of this house is a proof that the doctrine in question was never entertained by this body. Arguments, wherever the subject would permit, have constantly been drawn from the peculiar nature of this government, as limited to certain enumerated powers, instead of extending, like other governments, to all cases not particularly excepted."

    "In short, sir, without going farther into the subject. Which I should not have here touched at all but for the reasons already mentioned, I venture to declare it as my opinion, that, were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America; and what inferences might be drawn, or what consequences ensue, from such a step, it is incumbent on us all to consider."

    [source] (James Madison was the principal author of the Constitution, so he did have some idea of what he was talking about.)

    Now, if getting rid of the Department of Education was so unpopular, how easy do you think it would be to eliminate Social Security? Medicare and Medicaid? Housing and Urban Development?

    Enforcing the Constitution as it's written is not so easy.
  17. Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha by symbolic · · Score: 2, Informative

    My understanding is that it wasn't rushed through - the original draft was debated for about three weeks, and had very strong bipartisan support. Enter Bush & Co stage left. They took the bill, modified it quite substantially, and then after having had the presses run overtime printing it through the night, made it available the morning of the vote. Nobody had a chance to read it, much less understand its implications.

    What puzzles me is why Congress even voted on this version rather than tossing every copy into a bonfire, and then re-scheduling a vote for the original version. Then, they blew it a second time when they voted to re-authorize it.

    Suffice it to say that the Bush regime is largely to blame for the PATRI0T act, but the fact that it's still here means there more than enough blame to go around.

  18. Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Looks like a Markov bot to me. I think it reads Slashdot posts, cuts them into pieces and glues those pieces back together in order to generate a more or less convincing post.

    Note how it wrote "(Score:-)" once. To me it looks like the bot read the score from a post and mistook it for actual content; the colon is the end of the fragment and since colons don't occur too often in Slashdot posts the most likely token to begin with a colon is a smiley.

    There definitely is some kind of supervision going on, though; the bot clearly expresses some opinions, mostly anti-Bush and pro-conspiracy theory. Of course it might be possible that this comes from Slashdot having an anti-Bush bias, but I don't think that it's that extreme; also, conspiracy theorists usually end up flamed and ridiculed, so a truly random bot would rather toss around random flames instead of chemtrail theories.

    I think the most likely explanations are both related to the bot being trained selectively - either on posts with certain views (so the bot ends up emulating them) or on very long posts (so the bot builds up a useful set of sentence fragments quickly). The latter would explain the bias towardy kookery*; kooks tend to write very long posts, even though not all long posts are kooky.


    * Note that I don't think that anti-Bush sentiments are kooky; chemtrail theories are, however. That and only few people still insist that Gore is/was the US president.

    --
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  19. Re:No. by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oh really? Have you noticed the cost of fuel, health care and food prices over the last 5 years? You think the cost of fuel is driven by currency markets? It's scarcity (artificial or otherwise) and increased demand. If fuel were directly tied to currency, that would only account for it going from $1/gallon to $1.60/gallon... yet here it sits near $4. Food requires fuel to grow, and people are now even turning that into fuel. Plus, we grow a surplus of food in this country, so food is primarily dollar-based.

    Health care is rising at double digit annual rates. The gold standard wouldn't even touch this one. Doctors are paid in dollars, medicines made primarily with dollars, most equipment paid for in dollars. Foreign exchange rate isn't really a player here. Health care has many problems contributing to the high cost. First and foremost: people always demand "the best possible care", which is... guess what? Expensive. Most other countries don't have an MRI at every corner. Then there is liability insurance... doctors pay horrendous amounts of liability insurance. You also have government programs that have failed and driven costs up across the board.

    The "confused mind" is one that doesn't believe this counts as inflation. No, the "confused mind" is one that thinks that the costs of health care, food, or oil would be significantly impacted by going to the gold standard (again). It's not in dispute that inflation would be reduced. But so what? Wages and prices all go up together.

    Meanwhile, the cost of those commodities RELATIVE to gold IS more or less stable. Even a cursory look at historical prices would tell you this is not true. Take a look at the 20-year graph on this page. Now run over and look at the graph on this report, specifically the cost of health insurance over the same time period.

    Do these graphs have the same shape? Do they look at all alike? No. All of the gold cost increase has come in the last 5 years, whereas the health care cost is a nice linear line extending all the way back to the 60s.

    How about oil, then? Here's a graph showing historic oil prices. Unlike health care, the graph has a very similar shape to the rise in gold prices. However, the magnitude of the price increase is more than 3 times greater than the price increase of gold. In other words, oil still would be expensive.

    Food. That is your next point of contention. Go here and run some searches on the same time period for different food prices. The only one that I could find with a correlation to gold prices was "eggs". Cue "golden egg" joke.

    So what lessons from economics or history suggest that it's a bad idea to keep the cost of basic necessities relatively constant? That's a grand idea... cheap necessities for all. The problem is that it doesn't jibe with history. Food and fuel prices have never been stable, not even when we were on the gold standard.

    Putting us on a gold standard would make gold expensive again, and pretty much wipe out its use as an industrial commodity. It's completely arbitrary as a standard, too. Why not pick something else?

    Most importantly, why not just legislate the monetary policy instead of basing the currency on an arbitrary element? Gold was picked because it is shiny and pretty and fairly rare - a very strange criteria for a currency standard, and one that should have your geek-senses tingling for a more scientific reason. Of course, the environmental consequences of digging for the now artificially-inflated price of gold are pretty horrendous as well.
    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  20. FBI 0; Librarians 2 by lamona · · Score: 2, Informative
    This is the second time that librarians have gone up against the PATRIOT ACT and won. Amazing that a rather under-appreciated profession should be the one to take on the government.

    However, note this entry in the American Library Association's policy manual:

    53.4 Governmental Intimidation

    The American Library Association opposes any use of governmental prerogatives that lead to the intimidation of individuals or groups and discourages them from exercising the right of free expression as guaranteed by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. ALA encourages resistance to such abuse of governmental power and supports those against whom such governmental power has been employed.

    Unfortunately, you have to give a member ID to read the ALA policy manual (WTF?).

    --
    I just read /. for the amusing .sigs