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Creating Designer Isotopes

Roland Piquepaille writes "According to a Michigan State University (MSU) news release, 'Made-to-order isotopes hold promise on science's frontier,' nuclear physicists can now start a new career as isotope designers. These scientists can build specific rare isotopes to solve scientific problems and open doors to new technologies. The lead researcher says this approach has already given us the Positron Emission Tomography (PET) scan technology. He's now going further, saying that he wants to build objects 100,000 times smaller than the atomic nucleus. He calls this 'femtotechnology.' Also available are additional details and pictures of the tools used for this kind of research, picked from a 415-page design paper." Update: 05/11 14:30 GMT by SS: Readers have noted that the summary inaccurately portrays the scale of the 'femtotechnology.' The MSU researcher refers to "the capacity to construct objects on an even more minute scale, that of the atomic nucleus 100,000 times smaller."

44 of 71 comments (clear)

  1. Pushing Ice by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The term femtotechnology to describe technology built from subatomic particles, as nanotechnology describes technology is not new. The first occurrence of it I've seen was in Pushing Ice. Can anyone provide an earlier reference?

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:Pushing Ice by RalphBNumbers · · Score: 1

      Rudy Rucker used Femtotech in Freeware back in 1997, and I would be surprised if there aren't earlier references. It's a pretty straightforward step up from nanotech for molecules to femtotech for atoms.

      --
      "The worst tyrannies were the ones where a governance required its own logic on every embedded node." - Vernor Vinge
    2. Re:Pushing Ice by dpilot · · Score: 2, Informative

      I first saw femtotech in "Pushing Ice", and it seemed to me to be the natural result of the arms race between science and science fiction. Since I'm now working on 45nM semiconductor technology, I'm right at the brink of "classical nanotech" dimensions. We're practically there, so if science fiction is to remain fiction, they've got to move beyond. In that respect, femtotech is a natural next step. Wonder where science fiction will go once femtotech is within reach. Picotech is so "marching down the orders of magnitude", instead of different in kind, or will the magnitude be so different that it will be different in kind, like femtotech appears to be from nanotech...

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    3. Re:Pushing Ice by dpilot · · Score: 1

      I know we're far from there, but still, we're knocking on the door, and some people like Drexler are proposing doing those fiction things as fact. Science fiction needs to keep ahead of the reality curve.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  2. Wrong scale... by fredrikj · · Score: 2, Informative

    The size of the atomic nucleus, not 100,000 times smaller. One femtometer is roughly the radius of one atomic nucleus. And unlike the atom as a whole, the nucleus is very compact, about the size of its constituent particles. I don't think any kind of structure 100,000 times smaller than a nucleus has been detected experimentally.

    1. Re:Wrong scale... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      How about detecting such "a thing" in a particle accelerator? What does it mean to be 100,000 times smaller than a single proton? Do quarks have measurable dimensions?

    2. Re:Wrong scale... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      I don't think any kind of structure 100,000 times smaller than a nucleus has been detected experimentally. What about electrons?
      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    3. Re:Wrong scale... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      electrons are point structures, how many times smaller is zero than a given positive real number? it's sure not 100,000 8D

    4. Re:Wrong scale... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      And unlike the atom as a whole, the nucleus is very compact, about the size of its constituent particles.
      Not quite. First the real constituent particles of the nucleus are quarks which, as far as we are aware, are fundamental particles and so, like the electron, have no measurable size. As you increase the energy you will just see a quark confined to a smaller and smaller volume.

      Secondly, if you regard the nucleus as made up of protons and neutrons, the radius is still not the same as that of a proton. The liquid drop model of the nucleus shows how you can roughly treat the nucleus as a drop of liquid with a constant density and so the radius of the nucleus is proportional to the cube root of the number of protons and neutrons (the mass).
    5. Re:Wrong scale... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Since space itself it thought to be composed of discrete "chunks" of a non-zero size, what exactly is a "point structure" and why would you think it has size 0?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    6. Re:Wrong scale... by fredrikj · · Score: 1

      Secondly, if you regard the nucleus as made up of protons and neutrons, the radius is still not the same as that of a proton. The liquid drop model of the nucleus shows how you can roughly treat the nucleus as a drop of liquid with a constant density and so the radius of the nucleus is proportional to the cube root of the number of protons and neutrons (the mass).

      That's why I said "about the size", not "exactly the size". The relevant information is the order of magnitude; a proton has a radius of roughly 1 fm and nuclei have radii in the range of a few fm (depending on the mass number).

    7. Re:Wrong scale... by fredrikj · · Score: 1

      sure, quarks and neutrinos are a few billion times smaller than the nucleus.

      As far as anyone knows (aside from pure speculation) quarks and neutrinos are point particles with no internal structure. When they do get together, they form structures of the magnitude of a nucleus. The term "structure" is important, because the suggestion made by the article summary is that structures on this scale, which by definition would have comprise multiple particles, could be created. That is going to be hard if no physical mechanisms are known that could form such structures.

    8. Re:Wrong scale... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Yes, if you want to get technical, an electron doesn't have any definable volume.

      However, they do have mass, and in the case of a large atom, are several orders of magnitude less massive than their nucleus.

      I'm no expert in this area, although I believe that the concept of "volume" itself starts to become rather fuzzy once you go much smaller than a Proton (although, yes -- there are several particles smaller than the proton that we have evidence for, although it is difficult to directly describe these as "solid matter")

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    9. Re:Wrong scale... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      That's why I said "about the size", not "exactly the size".
      ...but you missed my first point: the real constituent particles are the quarks and gluons which as far as we know have no size.
    10. Re:Wrong scale... by fredrikj · · Score: 1

      ...but you missed my first point: the real constituent particles are the quarks and gluons which as far as we know have no size.

      As I said in another comment, what's relevant is how these constituent particles form structures. It is meaningless to speak of the radius of a quark (with current knowledge), but it makes sense to speak of the (statistical average) distance between two quarks within a nucleus.

    11. Re:Wrong scale... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      any finite electron size runs into the problem of a superluminal surface rotation speed

  3. Re:10.000 times smaller than an atomic nucleus? by ypps · · Score: 1

    Nah. The summary got it wrong. What he said is that he is building things (atom nuclei) that are 100 000 times smaller than the creations of nanotech-scientists.

  4. Real Kryptonite ? by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

    So when I mentioned this to my wife the first thing she said was 'Does that mean we can get working kryptonite?'. Which leads to the question has he now put Superman in danger from every 2 bit criminal with enough money to order atrificial Kriptonite?

    1. Re:Real Kryptonite ? by extrasolar · · Score: 2, Funny

      Which leads to the question has he now put Superman in danger from every 2 bit criminal with enough money to order atrificial Kriptonite? You mean, like, Lex Luther?
  5. Cherry Flavored... by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

    I bet that once they have these cool custom isotopes, they still give them that standard, gag-a-maggot, fake medical cherry flavor.

    "Of course it will save you from cancer, but you have to choke it down first."

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  6. Re:Fricking Roland by Harold+Halloway · · Score: 1

    But there is a link to his blog in the summary. Why would you not want to read that??? (Come to think of it, there's always a link to his blog in his summaries. Conceited arse.)

  7. Ahh, Science Reporters flub it again! by flajann · · Score: 1

    I really wish they would find people who ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND SCIENCE to report on science. Not to mention the wording of the summary. One does not "design" an isotope -- what's there to design? All one can do is find ways to create these isotopes in quantities that would actually be useful.

    1. Re:Ahh, Science Reporters flub it again! by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      At least this time he didn't write that it could be a cure for cancer. Or did he? Ok so I checked the original article and they proposed use for "international security". Crazy of course, but to be honest here, as a scientist you'll try to find any funding available, as long as you can make it plausible to the referee of the funding institute, why not try.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    2. Re:Ahh, Science Reporters flub it again! by flajann · · Score: 1

      That's why I've always wanted to fund my own scientific research. Well, here I am many years later still trying to scrape enough money together...

  8. Unforeseen problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Scientist : "Greetings again Mr. businessman, here is the isotope you requested.

    Businessman : "Where?"

  9. Re:Please no more stories by Roland Piquepaille. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Apparently the writer of the Michigan State University press release, "Sue Nichols", didn't have the slightest understanding of the subject either, and didn't care, because she said, "Isotopes are the different versions of an element." Maybe she was in a hurry to go shopping. She could have looked on Google for a definition of isotope: "Atoms of the same element that have the same number of protons (same atomic number) but different numbers of neutrons (different atomic masses)."

    > Atoms of the same element that have the same number of protons

    Otherwise they would not be of the same element.

    > but different numbers of neutrons (different atomic masses).

    I didn't RTFA, but "isotopes are the different versions of an element" translates nicely into "isotopes are the versions of a single element [note the constant number of protons here] with different masses/different numbers of neutrons". You see: element = element, version = same number of protons.

    While "different versions" is a somewhat unspecific term, I don't see no misunderstanding of the subject here. If TFA was written for a highly professional audience, I would ask why there was an explanation of isotopes given, anyway, because everybody knows what isotopes are. If not, this somewhat unspecific explanation is more than sufficient and accurate.

    I really don't know what your point is.

  10. Another glaring error by Wilson_6500 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The chemical changes that brought about the formation of the elements in the bellies of stars...

    If you're changing elements from one to another, it's not a chemical change. It's nuclear! That's one of the definitions of a nuclear change. What kind of science journalism is this?

    1. Re:Another glaring error by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      What kind of science journalism is this?


      The usual kind.
      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    2. Re:Another glaring error by DeadChobi · · Score: 1

      I guess in the broadest sense of the word "Chemical," if you completely stripped it of its scientific meaning and left it a void of its former self filled with nothing but the conceited misconceptions of a science journalist who took a year of Biology in college and now thinks he's qualified to take artistic license with a very powerful technical word, then it would most likely be an accurate representation.

      --
      SRSLY.
  11. Mod parent up! by openfrog · · Score: 1

    It is not that I am sick of reading stories by Roland Piquepaille. After all, I can choose not to read them. The problem here is that each time one of his stories appears, Slahsdot readers are brought to question the trust they put into the stories selection process. For me personally, you can add to this the discomfort to think that his stories take the place of an intelligent science posting.

  12. Re:Please no more stories by Roland Piquepaille. by TheLink · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't see how Sue Nichols is wrong.

    She said: "Isotopes are the different versions of an element. Their nuclei have different numbers of neutrons, and thus give them different properties".

    It is fairly accurate to say that isotopes are different versions of an element.

    As for your remark: "Maybe she was in a hurry to go shopping", maybe you should slow down a bit? :).

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  13. No e+/e-: only possible with quarks by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Informative

    In short, he's just "building" electrons and positrons.
    You cannot build structures with electrons and positrons which are this small. The reason being that the binding energy for EM processes (the strongest force which an e+/- feels) is far too weak to confine the particles to a region as small as 1 fm. For example positronium has a binding energy of 6.8eV, roughly half that of a hydrogen atom and hence it will be slighly larger.

    The misconception comes about because the electron is not a particle but a wave. You can trap the wave in a potential but it is still a wave. The smaller the space you want to confine it to the shorter the wavelength required and as the wavelength decreases the energy increases (deBroglie wavelength lambda=Planck's constant/momentum [lambda=h/p]). This means that energies O(10^6) times larger than EM binding energies to confine an electron to such a small area.

    The only force we know of that is strong enough to do this is the strong nuclear force which is only felt by quarks. Hence, given our current knowledge, the only thing you could build such a tiny structure out of is quarks...which is why the nucleus is made of these!
    1. Re:No e+/e-: only possible with quarks by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      although I want to stand by the assertion of continousness
      I'm curious - is this based on intuition or is there evidence to suggest that space-time really is continuous at the Planck scale? Or a prediction of string theory? Certainly I'll agree that it appears continuous as far as we have probed.

      ...but unless (until?) you can show a free quark that is unambiguously not the product (rather than the trigger) of a false vacuum decay hadronization
      How about top quark decays? This decays (or should decay) as a free quark because its lifetime is considerably less than the hadronization scale. We'd need to show spin correlations to prove that the quark decayed before hadronizing though so we are not quite there yet. This may be possible at the Tevatron but will definitely be possible at the LHC.
    2. Re:No e+/e-: only possible with quarks by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Technically gluons also feel the strong nuclear force
      There is no 'technically' about it: they do feel the strong force. However, as far as we know, you cannot create a bound state of just gluons - a so-called glue-ball - although it is possible that it may exist with a very short lifetime. If it had a long live time then, like the photon, being colour-neutral it would not feel the strong force and so would cause a long range strong nuclear force!

      This is actually a rather important as it explains why Quarks are never found in isolation.
      Actually you can observe single quarks - I've even done it! Top quarks decay so incredibly quickly (10^-24 s) that they decay as an isolated quark. This is because hadronization takes time and the top quark does not hang around that long. So a more correct statement is to say that at low energies quarks are never found in isolation. At high energies quarks exhibit what we call asymptotic freedom (the opposite of the low energy confinement which is what you described).
  14. This is not femtotechnology by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Informative

    The term femtotechnology to describe technology built from subatomic particles
    This is not an example femtotechnology any more than chemistry is is an example of nanotechnology. All they are doing is sticking protons and neutrons together in ways allowed by nature. This is not "designing" an isotope since there are only a few thousand combinations allowed. That's not to say it isn't useful technology but, if you look at the size of mchines required, the scale of the tech is anything but femto.
    1. Re:This is not femtotechnology by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      ...how one goes about doing anything not allowed by nature?
      Sorry - I agree I did not make myself clear. What I meant was "in ways that already occur in nature" i.e. they are only creating things that we already know the universe already produces by itself.

      I don't love the trendy label "nanotechnology" either, but the units produced are individually on the scale of nanometres.
      Then why don't we call chemistry nanotechnology? If I produce hydrogen by dropping metal into an acid is that nanotech because the size of my end unit is that size? The difference is that nanotech involves technology on the nano scale i.e. tiny physical systems that human ingenuity has built. The design of isotopes involves zero human ingenuity Carbon-12 is Carbon-12 - I can't decide I'd like to have Carbon-12 with a toroidal nucleus vs. the usual roughly spherical shape.
  15. Armor and Weapons by bigattichouse · · Score: 1

    yee haw! Denser materials == better weapons for punching through armor - oh wait, also means denser armor!

    --
    meh
    1. Re:Armor and Weapons by 22mcdaniel · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, the more exotic the isotope, the shorter its half life (the average time it takes before undergoing beta-decay and transforming into a slightly more stable element). For most elements there are usually just one to two stable forms. All others will decay, and the further in mass you get from the stable forms, the quicker this decay happens. It's kind of hard to make any physical object with a material that exists for a fraction of a second. Second, for any given element there is a lower mass and an upper mass boundary. There is a physical limit to what types of particles one can create. Beyond these boundaries, called the driplines when applied to the entire nuclear chart, particles are 'unstable'. I use unstable in the vernacular nuclear sense; particles will evaporate from the core until the remaing particles are bound. This, as mentioned above, still doesn't mean the particle is 'stable' in the common sense of the word. Lastly, the NSCL cylcotron produces the rarest particles, the particles with the lowest probability for creation (i.e. very low cross section) at a very low rate, sometimes as low as an event per day. The article is about the construction of a next generation nuclear facility at the NSCL. The US as in all other science fields, is gradually falling behind European and Japanese counterparts. The few other other major nuclear labs in the world (not to be confused with the super-expensive high energy facilities like Cern and Fermilab) are bringing online new facilities that will enable nuclear researchers to study more exotic elements, elements with stranger properties closer to that limit of stability. The MSU proposal is located here: http://www.nscl.msu.edu/future/isf/. There is a lot of interesting research to be done. Many of the biggest unanswered questions in physics are in nuclear physics. One mentioned in the article is the creation of elements. We are indeed created from stars, since the big bang left us with just some helium and hydrogen. The other elements are created in nuclear processes that occur in the giant nuclear furnaces of stars. Interested folks should look online for additional information. There is a incredibly large region of the nuclear chart that currently cannot be reached because present beam facilities don't have the energies and intensities to produce the particles at a rate sufficient for research. It would be very neat if we could get there.

  16. Not Really a New Field by samuel.hurley · · Score: 1

    This is called nuclear physics (and radiochemistry, to label molecules with the new element isotopes). This has been done for a looong time with PET tracers. Professors at various institutions have made hundreds of different compounds labeled with radioactive isotopes to observe all sorts of biological processes. Although new accelerators will be able to create a wide variety of elemental isotopes, its by no means "new" or "breakthrough" in my opinion.

  17. Heinlein by Catbeller · · Score: 2, Informative

    Robert A. Heinlein got there first. Tailored isotopes, novella "Blowups Happen". 1930's.

    1. Re:Heinlein by IvyKing · · Score: 2, Interesting
      More like 1940.


      "Blowups Happen" had quite a few predictions that ended up being reasonably close. One was that nuclear power plants would use a steam cycle. Another was being off by only a factor of two for the explosive yield of fissioning 2.5 tons of U235.


      There were a few things he missed. The most important to the story line was delayed neutrons. Another was the use of computers for numerical analysis (he wrote about advances in calculus that would allow for analytical solutions of problems that are now done numerically). He way underestimated the amount of electric generation developed in the US ca 1970.

  18. Re:Fricking Roland by stonecypher · · Score: 1

    Because we don't want to read anyone complaining about this guy. Surprise: you're a Roland too.

    --
    StoneCypher is Full of BS
  19. Re:Fricking Roland by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

    Wait a second... you are telling me that the tag indicating that a story is from Roland, was removed, completely killing any sort of filtering feature that made tagging good in the first place, because you DON'T want someone bitching that the story is posted by Roland?

    Jesus fucking christ. I must have slid into a really messed up universe this time. Maybe it is to my advantage though. Perhaps they also make cars here really cheap so I won't buy them!

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  20. Re:Fricking Roland by vrmlguy · · Score: 1

    Why does the "ohnoitsroland" and similar tags ALWAYS disappear? I just noticed that http://science.slashdot.org/tags/ohnoitsroland lists a number of recent stories, but when you look at the stories themselves, the tag is missing. This indicates that the tag is still present in the database, but is being filtered at display time.

    Of course, I'm not sure of any way to make use of theat information. I'm thinking that I need to write a Firefox extension that reformats the /. homepage to hide any post starting with "Roland Piquepaille writes".
    --
    Nothing for 6-digit uids?