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Windows 7 Won't Have Compact "MinWin" Kernel

Posted by kdawson on from the starting-over-is-hard-to-do dept.

An anonymous reader points us to an interview Microsoft's Windows 7 development chief, Steven Sinofsky, did with CNet. He reveals that Windows 7 will be a further evolution of Vista, and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. "We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same. We're going to not introduce additional compatibilities, particularly in the driver model. Windows Vista was about improving those things. We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this work that you've been talking about. The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 08 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."

24 of 580 comments (clear)

  1. hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by Nossie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    oooooh that was quick.. /marks that one off the list/

    shall we have a pool as to what will be next?

    (and yes I know powershell was released as an addon)

    1. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I didn't even know winFS was still alive... Or is FS short for Frankenstein?

      But your comment is exactly what I was thinking. We've seen it before, the touting of features on the next-best thing from Redmond, and we were much amused. They were constantly dropping features off the list, up to the point where there really were no technological advancements left in Vista.

      They really appear to be doing the same: "The Windows 7 marketing speak will be a further evolution of our experiences with marketing Vista".

      (and to the mods: parent should be modded insightful, not funny)

    2. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by plague3106 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Last I read the WinFS project is totally dead. Many pieces of the technology that would have made up WinFS though live on in other areas; parts went into Ado.Net for example.

      http://blogs.msdn.com/winfs/archive/2006/06/23/644706.aspx

    3. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by sm62704 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They were constantly dropping features off the list, up to the point where there really were no technological advancements left in Vista.

      What about the ability to slow down a computer to the point that you need a new computer, so you have to buy a new computer with another copy of Windows preinstalled?

      Doesn't that count as a technological advancement?

      That said, I still haven't read of a single feature of Vista that would compel me to shell out any more of my hard-earned money.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    4. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by blincoln · · Score: 5, Funny

      Last I read the WinFS project is totally dead.

      The Windows database filesystem is something MS has been developing, announcing, and then killing off since the early 90s. It's sort of the Redmond equivalent of a phoenix, or maybe a Terminator.

      At this point, I think they sort of *have* to announce it as a feature of every upcoming major version of Windows, only to cut it before the release of the OS. It's a tradition with almost 20 years behind it!

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    5. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      For Vista, they promised loads of stuff, then stripped most of them out, presumably for a later version.


      These Linux/Mac zealots always have something to complain about. Microsoft stripped that stuff out of Vista to give the users a fast and snappy system everybody could enjoy on any PC. If they kept all those features Vista would have been a real slug instead of the lightning fast OS it is now.

      [/sarcasm]
    6. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by PRMan · · Score: 5, Informative

      With the Linux desktop, whichever variety you choose, there remains large technological advancements before it is usable by the general public. With Windows, it works, and has been working for over ten years for the majority of people.

      Agreed about Windows for the last ten years, but the new Ubuntu just works. And I am a long-time Windows user that has tinkered with Linux since the 300 MHz days, constantly hearing about how it was the "year of the Linux desktop".

      But I had a 1GHz laptop with XP that locked up all the time. I could never find the culprit (probably a driver or IRQ issue). I installed Ubuntu, it found all the hardware automatically, asked me my WAP password and away I went. It's fast and usable now, instead of slow and unreliable.

      And we all know that hardly anyone installed XP on old computers -- preferring at the time their old Windows 2000, but eventually XP won people over as they upgraded.

      I don't know any such thing. I was at three companies where everyone was upgraded to XP. People loved XP. Businesses waited for the correct timing in their budget, but there was little doubt that it WOULD be adopted. Vista is universally reviled and most businesses I know are saying that they will NEVER go to it.

      I also value my time and have no problem spending a couple hundred on a new OS. But having dealt with Vista and Ubuntu Hardy Heron I would say that Ubuntu is way more hardware compatible and takes far less time to set up and install. And seeing how difficult it is to get software to run on Vista, it won't be long before Linux is more software-compatible as well.

      Fully 40% of my software in my business wouldn't run on it without major work (and many of these were Microsoft titles), about 25% never did run at all. Every software install on the test machine was a pray-and-hack affair. It was exactly as if I was trying to get the software to run on Wine or Mono, instead of Windows.

      Linux has easily passed Windows in hardware compatibility. Who ever thought we would see that day? Now the attention will go to software compatibility, and when Wine and Mono improve a little bit more, Linux will have the advantage there as well.

      And I predict that it will happen before Windows 7 comes out.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    7. Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc by RobDude · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You really need to qualify that claim. Ubuntu 'just works' for you.

      Ubuntu failed miserably to work for me. /Just sayin..

  2. Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting by Cyberax · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The current fortune cookie ("User hostile.") at the end of the page is somehow very fitting...

  3. Guarranteed To Suck by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why would we believe these guys in Redmond again? They have sold us vaporware for decades. They promised the cool new file system in Vista and it was scrapped early in. They are going in the right direction--abandoning the hamstring of backwards compatibility--but who has any faith in Microsoft's ability to execute? I think I know the reason too. Microsoft has always selected the highest rated developers. Well, ratings may judge raw intelligence but not creativity. And it is the latter thing that is in short supply. Microsoft just does not attract creative rule benders. Instead, it attracts go alongs--people who followed the rules and did the right thing all along--which leaves them with high scores on standardized tests but bereft of any creative initiative. This has been my experience, at least.

    1. Re:Guarranteed To Suck by Hoplite3 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I disagree that MS hasn't hired creative people. They were the home of the "Cowboy Coder" who would do anything to make code faster. This was a big advantage in the 1990's, when MS products tended to be faster than 3rd party code. But these hack-fest programs are a bitch to maintain, cowboy code is littered with side effects someone else has to find and eliminate, and (worse for MS) compilers and computers have gotten better.

      Good, maintainable, understandable code is now perfectly fast. MS's competitors now have the advantage from a good code bas. Meanwhile, the development process at MS as stagnated. (Remember the story of the shutdown dialog in Vista. Twelve people all working on code various degrees away from the trunk. Not good.)

      But I agree with your assessment that MS hasn't delivered on the cool. Apple is eating their lunch in the good looking and working camps. Linux is still king of the UNIX-like environment that seems to be in a Renaissance now. Still, MS has a big install base. They've worked hard to use incompatible file types to build lock-in. The aren't going anywhere for a while.

      --
      Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
    2. Re:Guarranteed To Suck by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Also, .NET has really withered on the vine. Though you will always be able to find shops that use .NET, the general consensus that I've heard is that .NET is dying.

    3. Re:Guarranteed To Suck by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 5, Informative

      Also, .NET has really withered on the vine. Though you will always be able to find shops that use .NET, the general consensus that I've heard is that .NET is dying.

      That's so so so not my experience in the market.

      There's much more demand (as measured by people trying to hire me to use the appropriate technology) currently for my .NET skills than my Java skills.

  4. ..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. by Dynamoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel." So in other words, the only thing really going for Windows 7 has been dropped. I feel that many businesses were holding out for Windows 7 to fix all the problems that Vista introduced.. it looks likely that this is not the case. If this shift is confirmed, then I really suspect that a lot of Microsoft houses will begin to dump the platform altogether.

    --
    Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
    1. Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Except that systems are powerful enough nowadays to run virtual machines. So Microsoft could have Windows 7 be backwards incompatible (taking advantage of any speed boosts that this gives the OS and Designed-For-Win7 applications) and they could include a free "Windows XP/Vista" virtual OS to run applications that require backwards compatibility. If done right, the virtual OS would be seamlessly integrated into the main OS. You wouldn't even know that Old Application #7 was running on a virtual OS instead of the regular OS (except, perhaps, for a bigger memory footprint and slightly slower response rate).

      IIRC, Apple did this when they moved from their old OS to their current one and it did wonders to ease the transition while still allowing Apple to break free of the shackles of backwards compatibility.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  5. doesn't sound promising.. by sqldr · · Score: 5, Funny

    We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7

    What, all five of them?

    --
    I wrote my first program at the age of six, and I still can't work out how this website works.
  6. So the difference is... by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...now, what exactly?

    Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?

    Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:So the difference is... by halcyon1234 · · Score: 5, Funny

      It'll be simple for the marketing drones:

      Do you remember the last time you had a steak? A really big, thick juicy steak. Yeah, that was great, wasn't it. That was XP.

      And then you remember how it clogged up your colon, and you couldn't do anything for a day or two? That was Vista

      And then you remember how it all finally came out, when you spent a half-hour on the can, insides being stretched to Hello.jpg proportions, tears laced with internal-bleeding running down your face, screaming and punching holes in the bathroom drywall, until finally at last everything was right again, and wave of adrenalin-induced euphoria washed over you once the pain was gone, finally gone? That was Vista SP1

      Don't you want to experience that wonderful feeling of eventually bliss all over again? Windows 7, coming soon to a colon, urr, computer near you*.

      (c)Windows(tm) Marketing(tm) Team(tm) 2008)(tm)

      *Steak not included

      --
      UTF-8: There and Back Again
  7. Some old story... by apathy+maybe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's see now... MS develops great new technology, but only so far as so that it can be seen what potential it has. MS hypes (to a greater or lesser extent) this new technology. MS explains that actually this new technology won't be used in the next version of MS Windows.

    What was that really good filesystem we were going to see in Windows XP, sorry I mean Vista?

    Oh right, this time it is because of backwards compatibility, rather then any other reason. But still, people keep saying it, why doesn't MS just dump the crud, go with a great new secure system (MinWin sounded like a good start), and use emulation to support all the old software?

    With drivers (the specific reason given here), they could easily have a backwards compatible layer implemented above the microkernal for drivers that needed it.

    Meh.

    --
    I wank in the shower.
  8. Losing small businesses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In my home business, I'm down to ONE program that runs only on Windows (ebay Blackthorne). ONE. (Wine doesn't cut it).

    Otherwise, I could be running on OS X for 1 laptop and the PCs would be switched over to Ubuntu or something similiar, maybe RedHat.

    Years ago, the internet was hamstringed by many windows only incompatibilities. Firefox evened the playing field there. Most programs were windows only (Quickbooks and Tax Programs can run on Mac now).

    Windows grasp in my business is tenuous indeed. Granted, mine is a small business - but aren't many in America?

    Plus in Linux, it's simple not to include a webbrowser. You can do the same in Windows, IIRC, (actually just turn it off), but there always seems to be a workaround on firing it up again. Those are one of the biggest productivity killers - my employees should be surfing at home.

    It's not that I care about licensing fees, but my operation is too small to hire someone technical who knows how to do everything the right way and I find the Windows boxes need the most babysitting. Time killer = Money Wasted.

  9. Wait. by ludomancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "...and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."

    Could you guys just go back and evolve Windows 2000 instead?

  10. Re:Cynical First Post by umofomia · · Score: 5, Informative

    Uh, no, that's completely wrong. Unless you're suggesting that Eric Traut doesn't work for or speak for Microsoft. In the talk he gave, clearly MinWin was supposed to be part of Windows 7.
    Wrong again... the ZDNet article mischaracterized his statements. He only says they built MinWin out of the current Windows 7 codebase. If you actually listen to the talk, he says: "This is internal only; you won't see us productizing this, but you can imagine this being used as the basis for products in the future." (said at 4:00 of the video clip on this page)
  11. Re:3, 2, 1.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Start the Windows Vista and Windows Seven bashing! I have a question for fellow slashdotters.

    Am I the only one who's leaving system administration over Vista?

    It's being rammed down our throats right now and it's just way too awful. It's actually the reason I'm quitting my sysadmin job and am going back to college for a non-computer related degree this fall.
  12. Re:3, 2, 1.... by Courageous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yah. Windows Vista has been a bit of a learning experience for them. What they discovered is that the popular press, overflowing with security concerns, was not entirely representative of their customer base. Their customer base does want security, but they by no means want their security ahead of compatibility... or even convenience, for that matter.

    Vista's mistakes are understandable from a certain point of view.

    Really, they should take a major hint from apple. Go ahead and make major transitions, but use virtualization to bridge the gap. Under no circumstances break compatibility.

    C//