Slashdot Mirror


The Neuroscience of Illusions and Dictionaries

Scientific American is running a pair of stories about what words and illusions can tell us about the brain. Mark Changizi of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute is interviewed about his research into the relationship between the mechanisms of the brain and the evolution of language. The second article contains a slide-show of various illusions and why the brain interprets them as it does.

72 comments

  1. What a boring article. by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    American Scientist ran an article about Light traps for light processing, Tip-of-the-Tongue processing states of memory and speech creation, Parkinson's Disease discussion, and a Moon surface discussion.

    And Scientific American (spit) runs yet another optical illusion article. I knew there was a reason why we dumped them and went AmSci.

    --
    1. Re:What a boring article. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm with you on this. Major suckage.

      As interesting as the idea (of developing visual acuity and color sensitivity) is, TFA teases us. It mentions that we developed a sensitivity to red because of the blushing mechanism (never mind that people of color probably do not blush like whites), but doesn't give us much more. A slideshow of optical illusions? Whee.

      That being said, it's a compelling idea, but it really belongs in the realm of science fiction and historical fantasy.

      The letter "Y" looks like it does, becaues it looks like a tree? "A" looks like a mountain?

      Meh.

    2. Re:What a boring article. by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      I wonder about his comparison of writing systems. The article doesn't provide many details, but is 100 different writing systems really that significant? Large groups of writing systems all share common ancestry. Does he include symbolic/character based languages? This is interesting, but I agree, the article leaves much unanswered.

  2. Link to the meat by SheeEttin · · Score: 5, Informative

    Link to the one-page/print version of the dictionary article and the meat of the illusion article
    Also, a summary of the illusion article: The brain uses context, rather than absolute sampling.

  3. Why this is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Although many neuroscientists are trying to figure out how the brain works, Mark Changizi is bent on determining why it works that way.

    Even I have been trying to figure out why my boss's brain works the way it does, since ages. And it never made a news.

    1. Re:Why this is news? by harry666t · · Score: 1

      Your boss' brain? LOL. You should try finding out how does my ex-girlfriend's brain work.

  4. So can somebody explain? by quokkapox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why do LED clocks jiggle up and down when I'm eating crunchy things?

    --
    it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
    1. Re:So can somebody explain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Because you touch yourself at night.

    2. Re:So can somebody explain? by Vectronic · · Score: 1, Informative

      The change in (fluid) pressure in your eyes (because of muscles contracting/expanding), aswell as slight variation of the position between both your eyes (since we arent perfectly semetrical) from vibration, etc.

    3. Re:So can somebody explain? by Dachannien · · Score: 4, Informative

      The LEDs aren't actually illuminated all the time. They are actually flashing very fast - faster than your brain can discern. When you eat crunchy foods, it vibrates your head (and therefore, your retinas) at a frequency sufficient to allow some of the LED flashes to appear above or below the other flashes.

    4. Re:So can somebody explain? by LordCobalt · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...And another reason might be if you wear glasses, the chewing action will alter where your glasses actually focus on.

    5. Re:So can somebody explain? by Eighty7 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hang on, do you weigh less than a duck.

    6. Re:So can somebody explain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that is the explanation for why God kills kittens.

    7. Re:So can somebody explain? by PPH · · Score: 1

      That depends on what it was that gave you the munchies.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    8. Re:So can somebody explain? by Moodie-1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dachannien's explanation is the correct one. LEDs sometimes use 'multiplexing' power sources, causing the segments to flicker when you move your eyes quickly. This is also true of some of the newer LED automobile tailights.

    9. Re:So can somebody explain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You got 1/2 credit. I think the intent of the question is, why don't other light sources, beside LEDs, jump up and down when I chew?

    10. Re:So can somebody explain? by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Erm... they do...

    11. Re:So can somebody explain? by Tomfrh · · Score: 1

      When you eat something crunchy your head vibrates.

      LEDs turn on and off very quickly.

      The jiggle you observe is the inteference pattern between these two phenomena.

    12. Re:So can somebody explain? by ElderKorean · · Score: 1

      This is also true of some of the newer LED automobile tailights.

      For me, these new LED tailights are really distracting, as I see them flickering as they go past. I also find push-bike LED tailights that flash patterns annoying as hell.

      I don't have any flicker problems with LED torches or traffic signals, just the rear LED's on cars and trucks.

    13. Re:So can somebody explain? by Trogre · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can discern Pulse-Width Modulated LEDs without eating :) By rapidly oscillating my eyes I can tell you in a second which light sources in a room are PWM. Car brake lights, dashboard lights, billboard signs, power LEDs - it's surprising how much equipment is now PWMd. That unfortunately includes other POV-based technologies like DLP. I see the rainbow effect in every single-chip implementation that I've ever come across.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  5. Sounds like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    an article on the Bush Administration

  6. Binocular vision and elephants by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For the evolution of forward-facing eyes, I am arguing that it is for a kind of x-ray vision. It actually allows us to see through stuff--like when you hold up a finger vertically and you see through it instead of beyond it. For animals that are large and living in forested environments, there should be selection pressure for forward-facing eyes, because you can actually see more of your environment.
    That makes a lot of sense, and is very interesting to me since I recall learning that predators have forward facing eyes so they can better detect movement of prey (binocular vision) while prey animals have outward facing eyes so they can better be aware of threats (greater field of vision).

    I had always wondered why elephants had forward-facing eyes, since they are not predators... and this helps explain it. I had always supposed that it was because they were social animals, and communication ability and multiple individuals scanning for threats was better than one individual with a larger field of view. This makes even more sense if the scanning in a smaller area is more effective due to the binocular vision associated with forward-facing eyes.
    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    1. Re:Binocular vision and elephants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uh, retread, elephants have outward facing eyes.

      an elephant with forward facing eyes would be a sight to behold.

    2. Re:Binocular vision and elephants by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually a short film on National Geographic made a good point.

      If we didn't have forward facing eyes, just how effective would our hands be? We'd have lots of trouble grabbing things, because we'd have a very hard time judging the proper distance. Same with manipulating things.

      Granted, elephants aren't exactly known for having hands, but they do use their trunk for a LOT of gripping and manipulating. How much trouble would they have, if they didn't have forward facing eyes?

      --
      We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
    3. Re:Binocular vision and elephants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, peripheric vision sucks when you want to focus on things instead of being a hyperactive paranoid. What would be great would be some way of switching modes. Our neck and hips are a great hack, but some intelligent designer could have done much better than that. Something like the Chameleon if we have to stay with two eyes or real power with both peripheric and front vision like Spiders.

    4. Re:Binocular vision and elephants by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 1
    5. Re:Binocular vision and elephants by HadouKen24 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That would be pretty nasty for a biped--or anything of substantial size, really. Chameleons can get away with it since they don't have to worry about falling down or running into things. Unfortunately, having eyes that can move about like that requires putting them outside the skull to some degree, which puts them in serious danger. One bad headlong rush into a tree or down a flight of stairs could blind such a creature forever.

  7. Rods and cones by Dachannien · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the first FA, Changizi states his hypothesis that primates evolved color vision in order to detect changes in emotional state indicated by things like blushing/flushing of the face. I find this a bit problematic, primarily because it doesn't explain why our vision evolved to respond to three different wavelength ranges of light (red, green, and blue). It would make more sense to have only evolved cones responsive to red light, or perhaps red and one other color, if that were the only reason.

    It seems to me that a more reasonable hypothesis is that trichromatic color vision co-evolved along with the colorings of fruits that primates would find nutritious. Emotional cues seem like a more subtle issue - as well as a mostly-solved problem - that would have taken advantage of color vision that was already partially or fully evolved.

    1. Re:Rods and cones by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      As i see it, what we have is what we got and gave us at least for enough time a survival or mating advantage to make it in our common gene pool. Being able to detect emotions fits in that scheme, specially if things like emotions get more complicated than with lower animals, so have some rationality.

      But detecting fruit colors never was a survival requirement for animals that have it as its main food.

      Still, i agree that it shouldnt be the only factor there. If seeing changes in body heat was just what was needed i think that even mosquitoes had the ability to see that.

    2. Re:Rods and cones by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But in order to see red best, you need to be able to detect what is not red. If you want to see why, take a photo of a colourful scene then create two versions in Photoshop, make one greyscale, then on the other one, use the channels pallet to look at each channel separately. A bright red object in the red channel will look the same as a white object, while the other channels will show it as very dark. Obviously, human vision doesn't work exactly like this, but the same principle still applies: The best way to detect red is not just to see red in an otherwise grey world, but to have it contrast with other colours.

      Of course, I don't entirely buy the blushing theory, either. And this isn't necessarily saying anything about the way vision actually evolved, as well. But I do think it shows that your reasoning in this case is wrong, even if you are right. The food theory has always made more sense to me when you look at how other species have evolved.

  8. More/Better Optical Illusions by martyb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The second article contains a slide-show of various illusions [CC] [GC] and why the brain interprets them as it does.

    Maybe I missed something, but I found the second article to be a let-down.

    (Warning for epileptics: if visual stimuli can set off a seizure for you, you should probably stay away from the following links. I am not susceptible, but I found the second link to be visually overwhelming at first.)

    IMHO, more interesting galleries of examples can be found at Wikipedia's Optical Illusions page and at Michael Bach's 78 Optical Illusions & Visual Phenomena page.

    1. Re:More/Better Optical Illusions by Ai+Olor-Wile · · Score: 1

      I rather agree. All it really says for "why the brain interprets them as it does" is, as another poster mentioned, "context". I think that link would be better suited to idle.slashdot.org.

  9. Brightness and Color Illusions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can someone please explain the "illusion" behind the grey tiles?

    http://www.sciam.com/media/gallery/2B21EB44-BA10-8BF8-02EDC7FC3DF3CDEF_1.jpg

    It challenged the reader to print out the image, cut out the two squares and compare them, which I did. Fair enough, sqaure A is a bit darker than the other light grey squares (didn't notice that prior to printing it out) but it is still much lighter than square B.

    Are my eyes messed up? Or my brain? :P

    1. Re:Brightness and Color Illusions by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Fair enough, sqaure A is a bit darker than the other light grey squares (didn't notice that prior to printing it out) but it is still much lighter than square B.

      You must have done something wrong. I opened the image in Photoshop and used the eye dropper to sample the pixels. The A and B squares are the same.

    2. Re:Brightness and Color Illusions by mangu · · Score: 1

      Are my eyes messed up? Or my brain? :P

      Maybe your printer or printer driver is.


      I opened the picture in Gimp and selected a region in square B. It's really weird, it seems to get darker and lighter as I move the selection around.

    3. Re:Brightness and Color Illusions by hansraj · · Score: 3, Interesting
      As always wikipedia is your friend. The reason for this illusion is summarized in the following line:

      When interpreted as a 3-dimensional scene, our visual system immediately estimates a lighting vector and uses this to judge the property of the material. So, in effect the brain sees something that looks like a 3D image and imagines that there is a source of light somewhere. If you look at the picture again, you would notice that the perceived color difference of the two squares appear distinctly with a mental image of a shadow of the cylinder on the chequered platform. The brain imagines a light source on the upper left side of the picture. Why exactly there? Probably because the cylinder seems to have a lighter shade in that direction and darker on the opposite side, making it seem as if there is a light source in that direction.

      Fascinating really!
  10. Difficulty RTFA by pgn674 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Is anyone else having trouble reading the second article? The image on the left keeps distracting me, with its pretend turning of ultimate attention attainment.

  11. First illusion in slideshow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've seen my share of optical illusions, but the first one in the slideshow really got me. Its the one with the checkerboard and shadow, where squares A and B are actually the same shade, but B appears lighter because of the context (surrounding squares are darker).

    I honestly thought it was BS until I cropped two copies of the image and compared the two squares side by side...

  12. LiquidGeneration has another slideshow by tepples · · Score: 1
    1. Re:LiquidGeneration has another slideshow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was retarded.

  13. Another Great Resource by Ieshan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Another great resource for this stuff is the "Best Visual Illusion Contest of the Year" page that's sponsored by (and done at) the Vision Science meeting every year:

    http://illusioncontest.neuralcorrelate.com/

    These are the newest and most interesting illusions that are found every year. Some of them are very interesting and quite clever.

  14. Summary! by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

    Here is a bunch of old optical illusions that you've seeen a billion times before. We still aren't to sure what causes them.

    --
    I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
  15. Serious conceptual flaws by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Quoting from the slide show link:

    It's a fact of neuroscience that everything we experience is actually a figment of our imagination. Although our sensations feel accurate and truthful, they do not necessarily reproduce the physical reality of the outside world. Although our sensations feel accurate and truthful, they do not necessarily reproduce the physical reality of the outside world.

    The whole philosophy of perception that this quote embodies is fundamentally wrong. As an example of this, take a look at the first so-called "illusion" in the slideshow: the Edward Adelson checkerboard-and-shadon example. This is called an "illusion" on the basis that our eyesight "misleads us" by telling us that a light square in the shadow is lighter than a dark one in the light, whereas they are, supposedly, "the same color." By "the same color," what they seem to mean is that the stimulus, i.e., the rays of light reflected or emitted from the squares that hit our retina, have the same spectrum and intensity.

    What they're missing is that the point of vision, and perception in general, isn't to give us information about the rays of light that hit the retina. What vision does is give us information about the objects in our environment, which reflect or emit rays of light. The reason we see the two squares as having different colors, despite the fact that our retinas are getting the exact same pointwise stimulus from them, is because the visual system, using contextual information about light and shadow across the whole scene, can figure out that the surface spectral reflectivity of the two squares must be different. Square B looks lighter than square A because the visual system judges, correctly, that it must reflect more light. Or put alternatively: the visual system figures out that if the two squares were in the same light, the point stimulus from the reflected light rays would be different.

    This is accurately reproducing an aspect of the physical reality of the outside world; vision is accurately reproducing the spectral reflectivity of surfaces in our environment, at the apparent expense of failing to reproduce the spectral distribution of the rays of light that hit our retina. But of course, the answer to that one is that the rays of light aren't the object of visual perception, they're just the means.

    Seeing the squares as different colors is not an illusion. There is only one visual illusion in that example, and they don't remark on it: the illusion of seeing, in a flat surface, a 3D scene with light and shadow. The judgement that the two squares have different colors follows from that, because in the real-world scene the image depicts, those squares would in fact be surfaces with different colors when seen under the same light.

    1. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by the+cheong · · Score: 1

      I don't think they're missing that; I bet they'd agree with what you're saying. You just seem to disagree with their terminology (e.g. "illusion").

      Also, what is the difference between seeing 3D in a 2D surface and seeing 3D in a 3D "surface"? Like the Flatlander that sees a penny as a line (he can only see one-dimensional information), everything we see is actually a 2D image translated into a 3D construction in our brain.

    2. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think they're missing that; I bet they'd agree with what you're saying. You just seem to disagree with their terminology (e.g. "illusion").

      No, it's not just a disagreement about terminology. It's a disagreement about what the object of vision is. I take it we all agree that what vision does is to give us information about the environment. The disagreement is about assumptions about what that information is. Is it information about the rays of light that hit the retina, or about the surfaces that reflect or emit those rays of light?

      Note that, in fact, the term "illusion" is not at all under dispute. I'm sure I'm going to agree with the folks who wrote that drivel about what it means for something to be an optical illusion: it's a case where the visual system gives you incorrect information about the object of vision. But this entails precisely that different assumptions about what the object of vision is will yield different conclusions about what is an illusion and what is not.

      Also, what is the difference between seeing 3D in a 2D surface and seeing 3D in a 3D "surface"?

      That in the former case, you're wrong about the object of vision. The object of vision is extended across three dimensions in the former case, but only in two in the latter. Real 3D scenes afford possibilities of action and motion that illusory ones do not. Try and see how far you can go grasping the cylinder in the fake 3D scene.

    3. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "It's a fact of neuroscience that everything we experience is actually a figment of our imagination. Although our sensations feel accurate and truthful, they do not necessarily reproduce the physical reality of the outside world. Although our sensations feel accurate and truthful, they do not necessarily reproduce the physical reality of the outside world."

      I think you totally misunderstood what they were getting at, poorly chosen words. According to physics of relativity, "insideness vs outsideness" is an illusion of consciousness. Reality is a continuous field. i.e. If we were in a simulation you wouldn't know it. There is no object "out there" per se, all your mind is doing is discretizing a continuous surface of data that you percieve or have access to into chunked-objects that don't really exist. i.e. a tree is not seperate from the earth, which ultimately is not seperate from space, which is ultimately not seperate from the sun, all of these things are continuously connected in ways we don't fully understand.

      How we currently interpret reality is based on what we think we know, not what we actually know. There's a huge difference. A color blind person interprets the features of world differently then someone with full color vision for example, and there are rare 'tetra chromats' that see the world in full four color vision.

      The point is you there are gaps in what we are able to detect and perceive, what you ultimately are perceiving in the end is data, when you go to sleep for instance, you could die and not KNOW that you in fact have died, the only reasonable indicator that you have died would be the fact that you are no longer conscious but you wouldn't ever know that you were not.

      http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06256/721190-114.stm

    4. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by the+cheong · · Score: 1

      Perhaps one or both of us are not communicating well. I don't see what your argument has to do with mine. By 3D "surface", I did not mean the surface of a table or a car, but the entire table or car itself, as a 3D "projection" on, for example, a 4D hyperplane. Anyway, you raise interesting points. And if we had time to sit down and converse, we'd probably clear everything up and come to one agreement or another.

    5. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 3, Insightful

      According to physics of relativity, "insideness vs outsideness" is an illusion of consciousness.

      I don't think physicists have very much to tell us about psychology or philosophy. What they think is not completely irrelevant, but it is not imbued with the authority you pretend it should.

      Reality is a continuous field. i.e. If we were in a simulation you wouldn't know it. There is no object "out there" per se, all your mind is doing is discretizing a continuous surface of data that you percieve or have access to into chunked-objects that don't really exist. i.e. a tree is not seperate from the earth, which ultimately is not seperate from space, which is ultimately not seperate from the sun, all of these things are continuously connected in ways we don't fully understand.

      Your problem is that your claim to know this is self-defeating. In order to "know" all this, you have to rely on your knowledge of a real world that you inhabit and interact with, with everyday objects at everyday scales.

      A more philosophical way of putting it: there are two main, related problems with what you're saying here:

      1. You're giving metaphysical status to the theories of contemporary physics. The "real" world is whatever physics says the world is; therefore, everything that physics leaves out (like everyday experience) must be "illusory."
      2. You're granting metaphysics priority over epistemology. You want us to accept that physics gives us true knowledge of what is "real" and what is "illusory." However, the knowledge that physics offers us is the result of the interactions of people in an everyday world making predictions about what they will experience when they manipulate that everyday world in sophisticated ways. Knowledge of physical theories presupposes participation in the everyday world; therefore physical theories cannot tell us what is "real" and what is "illusory" in the metaphysical sense. You can only rescue that line of thought by assuming that knowledge itself is illusory (which I wouldn't be surprised if you do).

      Needless to say, I don't think physics gives us a metaphysics, and I don't think metaphysical problems have a priority over epistemological ones.

    6. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 2

      By 3D "surface", I did not mean the surface of a table or a car, but the entire table or car itself, as a 3D "projection" on, for example, a 4D hyperplane.

      Let me try it this way: perception is about acquiring information about the environment of an organism. The environment isn't just a 3D surface (in the mathematical sense you're using) that the organism sees; it's a world that the organism inhabits. The organism moves around the environment and interacts with its features and objects with its limbs, etc.

      What makes the perception of 3D depth in a 2D drawing an illusion is the fact that it affords you the visual appearance of depth, without affording the organism movement in along three independent axes. The 3D "illusion" of a 3D "surface" that you attributed to vision of real world scenes, on the other hand, does afford movement in three axes. This is precisely the reason it's not illusory: it is fully part of the world that vision, coordinated with the other senses and the organism's possibilities of action, affords the organism.

    7. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The disagreement is about assumptions about what that information is. Is it information about the rays of light that hit the retina, or about the surfaces that reflect or emit those rays of light?


      This is a philosophical debate about semantics, not the properties of vision. That is, because you are really asking, as I am reading it, within what or where does vision occur? Does vision occur in the wavelengths and particles of light being reflected? Does vision occur in the retinas? along the optic nerve? in the occipital lobe? in the amygdala or the frontal lobe? Etc.

      I believe there is no exact answer, however, neurology has provided evidence that vision seems to occur in multiple areas of the brain, and damage to any part of the process results in a flawed interpretation of reality. Correct perception of reality is one of the main causes for psychological disorders. This can external (a mis-shapen lens, for example) or can be internal (a damaged nerve or poorly-formed synaptic pathway).
    8. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      What they're missing is that the point of vision, and perception in general, isn't to give us information about the rays of light that hit the retina. What vision does is give us information about the objects in our environment, which reflect or emit rays of light.

      But that makes assumptions about the evolution of vision.

    9. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Uhm. Yes it is an illusion.

      The challenge is to compare the *ink* colours (lightness, hue, whatever) in two sections of that picture. The other prompts in the picture are there solely to inhibit the capability to accurately make a comparison by producing an illusion of a shadow cast by a cylinder.

      The fact that one cannot easily do this as with a flat checkerboard for example, is what makes it an illusion.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    10. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by yakiimo · · Score: 1

      I think you are overstating your case and playing with semantics a bit. How do you know so definitively the point of vision which I think is itself a shaky concept evolutionarily speaking since it is emergent. I think your statements make a lot of sense, but I don't see how they are contradictory with the article or how they missed any big point.

      In fact, it seems to me that your "purpose" of vision fits quite well with their basic idea of "perception is only a representation of reality."

    11. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      How do you know so definitively the point of vision which I think is itself a shaky concept evolutionarily speaking since it is emergent.

      That's a fair point. I was definitely sloppy about that, in the interest of advancing other parts of the argument.

      When I say "the point of vision," I don't mean that nature is teleological. "The point of vision" is the set of functional assumptions that the researchers make, and guide their investigation. My argument is that by accepting the idea that people's "failure" to judge the squares as "the same color" constitutes an illusion, one thereby makes a bad assumption about visual perception (and about perception): that perception's function is to give us information about the light rays that hit the retina, instead of the things that reflected those rays to our retina.

      I think your statements make a lot of sense, but I don't see how they are contradictory with the article or how they missed any big point. In fact, it seems to me that your "purpose" of vision fits quite well with their basic idea of "perception is only a representation of reality."

      I'm not a representationalist, so I'm certainly disposed against that statement. In this one case, however, I'm not engaging in a general argument against representationalism, as much as attacking a specific representationalist analysis of the supposed "illusion."

    12. Re:Serious conceptual flaws by yakiimo · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I had never read that as a formal philosophy. In general, I tend to agree with the basic tenet. I seems to me that it is an inescapable truth that our "thoughts/brain" are separated from the world by our senses. Some exceptions would be getting your brains shaken up in a concussion, an aneurysm, brain surgery, etc. But those are not really perceivable by us except as disruptions to our normal brain function.

      Independent of this illusion discussion, if you don't mind, could you tell me if there is some reason to doubt what I wrote above? Sorry I'm obviously no expert in this area. I think I must be missing the point :)

  16. This is why... by jd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...strong AI cannot come from the processing of real data. That is not how minds work. Minds exist in a self-contained virtual reality that are periodically updated with real-world sensory data. This is why autism can impact the flow of that data and its connectedness without impacting the underlying mind. They're simply not associated in that way.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  17. > 3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    FTA: across different languages most characters take three strokes to write out. That's because, he says, three is the highest quantity a person's brain can perceive without resorting to counting.

    The pips on my six-sided die say otherwise.

  18. links to fulltext pdfs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    of the color vision paper and the alphabet paper:
    [url=http://journals.royalsociety.org/content/?Author=Mark%20A.%20Changizi]

  19. Re: 3 by jsiren · · Score: 1

    FTA: across different languages most characters take three strokes to write out. That's because, he says, three is the highest quantity a person's brain can perceive without resorting to counting. If we wrote Morse code, yes. To my knowledge (which may be false) most writing systems distinguish symbols primarily by their shapes, not by the number of strokes. Then again, TFA may be misleading. From Changizi's own page (gasp! a source reference!) "(1) The number of strokes per character is approximately three, independent of the number of characters in the writing system; numeral systems are the exception, having on average only two strokes per character. (2) Characters are approximately 50% redundant, independent of writing system size; intuitively, this means that a character's identity can be determined even when half its strokes are removed. Because writing systems are under selective pressure to have characters that are easy for the visual system to recognize and for the motor system to write, these fundamental commonalities may be a fingerprint of mechanisms underlying the visuo-motor system."
    --
    Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
  20. Subtle flaw in your argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    In the first FA, Changizi states his hypothesis that primates evolved color vision in order to detect changes in emotional state indicated by things like blushing/flushing of the face. I find this a bit problematic, primarily because it doesn't explain why our vision evolved to respond to three different wavelength ranges of light (red, green, and blue). It would make more sense to have only evolved cones responsive to red light, or perhaps red and one other color, if that were the only reason.

    Let us grant your second suggestion: that dichromatic vision is sufficient for detecting changes in emotional state. What that would mean is that the task requires no less than two kinds of photoreceptor, and that both dichromats and trichromats will become more common in the population than monochromats. However, you've given us no reason to think that the dichromats would be better off than the trichromats. We could end up with a majority trichromat population not because trichromats would be fitter than dichromats, but just because the original population had a mutant allele for trichromatism but none for dichromatism.

    Of course, all my argument shows is that both Changizi and you would need to pursue other lines of argument to settle the dispute.

  21. I need a new brain... its malfunctioning... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ... of the fifteen optical illusions only about a third of them did I see the optical illusion without first reading the caption.
    After reading the caption and looking fo rthe illusion I was able to see more.

    1. Re:I need a new brain... its malfunctioning... by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      15? Where are the other 10? I think only 3 of them were supposed to be obvious.

  22. The number three... by Zekeums · · Score: 1

    I had never heard about the number 3 being the highest a person can perceive without counting, but I do know that odd numbers are more pleasing to the eye. (People generally like looking at triangles or photos of three cherries as opposed to rectangles and photos of two cherries.) So the question becomes, is it that the action of making three strokes in a letter is more pleasing, or is it looking at the result that we like? Probably, it is both.

    1. Re:The number three... by icegreentea · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've heard about this before, and I think it's vaguely true. I can easily pick out 3, 4, or even 5 objects without having to count, of having them in any particular formation/sequence. But if you gave me 6 objects in a random configuration (without showing me a lesser number before hand), I really would have to count. Case in point is Roman Numerals (and Chinese I guess). Roman Numerals (now) goes up to III before IV (though apparently it use to go up to IIII). Chinese does the one stroke, two stroke, three stroke thing too, before switching to other symbols (though apparently the Chinese four also derived from a 4 stroke character too).

    2. Re:The number three... by dfedfe · · Score: 1

      You may be interested in the term subitization: the ability to rapidly determine numerosity for small sets of items.

  23. So... by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
    ...is this guy a Fremen, or what?


    Chok-sa!

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  24. You sure 'bout that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As always wikipedia is your friend. You sure 'bout that?
  25. No really, it's an illusion. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    What they're missing is that the point of vision, and perception in general, isn't to give us information about the rays of light that hit the retina. What vision does is give us information about the objects in our environment, which reflect or emit rays of light. The reason we see the two squares as having different colors, despite the fact that our retinas are getting the exact same pointwise stimulus from them, is because the visual system, using contextual information about light and shadow across the whole scene, can figure out that the surface spectral reflectivity of the two squares must be different. Square B looks lighter than square A because the visual system judges, correctly, that it must reflect more light. Or put alternatively: the visual system figures out that if the two squares were in the same light, the point stimulus from the reflected light rays would be different.

    Uh-huh, but that's not what the scene depicts, nor is it the basis of the illusion.

    There's two types of color we're talking about here. There's the surface property of the objects if viewed in equal light, like the color of paint that was used to paint the squares or its reflectivity. Then there's the appearance of the object based on its current actual lighting conditions. I'll call these "absolute" and "shadowed" for want of better terms, hoping you'll understand.

    There is absolutely no problem with our eyes perceiving both somethings absolute color and its shaded color. If you saw two objects of the same absolute shade, but one was in shadow, you would easily be able to see both that the objects were the same absolute color, while also perceiving the one in shadow to be darker.

    Just because our eyes/brain make deductions about the properties of a surface based on the lighting, does not mean it actually throws the lighting information away afterwards. We see shadows as darker. We can compare both the absolute color of two things and the shadowed appearance of the two things.

    The point of this illusion is not just that B appears "lighter", as in the deduction that B is a light-painted square and A is a dark-painted square. That's obvious, and not the illusion. The illusion is that the shaded appearance of B is such that it is still much brighter than A.

    And it is an illusion. In fact, it's just a twist on the usual contrast illusion where a medium gray shade appears very light on a black background, and dark on a white background. The fact that the transition from light to shadow is broken up by the darker squares is what causes the illusion.

    One way to show this is to modify the image. Remove the dark squares around B, replacing them with light squares. Keep the shadow intact. It then becomes obvious that:
    1) B is still an "absolute" lighter color than A, i.e. if they were in the same light, B would be lighter than A. The very thing you say your brain is deducing and causing you to perceive B as a lighter "shaded" color as well.
    2) B's relative "shaded" color is about the same as A. I.e. the shadow darkens B to the point where it appears about equal to A. The very thing you say your brain doesn't perceive in order to tell you the more important (1).

    So, you proposed that in the original image you did not perceive (2) because your brain was really after telling you (1). That is in part true, but the reality is that your brain can tell you both things... Were it not for the optical illusion which misleads you.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
    1. Re:No really, it's an illusion. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      There's two types of color we're talking about here. There's the surface property of the objects if viewed in equal light, like the color of paint that was used to paint the squares or its reflectivity. Then there's the appearance of the object based on its current actual lighting conditions. I'll call these "absolute" and "shadowed" for want of better terms, hoping you'll understand.

      There is absolutely no problem with our eyes perceiving both somethings absolute color and its shaded color. If you saw two objects of the same absolute shade, but one was in shadow, you would easily be able to see both that the objects were the same absolute color, while also perceiving the one in shadow to be darker.

      I do not agree with the last statement there, because I'm not convinced that the "shadowed" color is a perceptual datum. Certainly there are people, e.g. painters, who through training and practice, learn to judge what the "shadowed" shades are in what they see. It does requires training and practice, which suggests that it's a skill, not perception. (Though it would be interesting to work through the argument that skills can change perception.)