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House Votes For Telco Immunity; Obama Will Support?
We discussed telecom immunity yesterday ahead of the House vote. It passed by 293 votes to 129. Only one Republican voted against the bill; Democrats were evenly split. It now goes to the Senate. Reader Verteiron points out that Glenn Greenwald has up a post titled "Statement of Barack Obama supporting Hoyer FISA bill." It says that Obama will try to get the immunity provision removed, but failing that will vote for the overhauled wiretapping bill anyway. I couldn't find this on Obama's official site. Anyone seen a position from the McCain camp?
no change
6) Lawsuits lost because of this law may be appealed and this law will hopefully be found unconstitutional (because it is).
Developers: We can use your help.
Spin in however you like, no matter how you look at this, the Democrats caved. Pathetic.
I can't think of anything profound to say. I hate to be the bearer of hopelessness, but I think that the US is too far down the road to being a police state. There is no way this will get reversed. I don't see this thing being defeated in the Senate. There are too many powerful lobbies behind it. Sorry.
I'm done with giving Obama money. I want a return to constitutional governance, and supported him because I thought that's what he stood for. Apparently not. This has nothing to do with party politics and everything to do with the betrayal of rule of law by both political parties. They have eviscerated the fourth amendment without so much as a peep from the Supreme Court.
This is getting very ugly. At this point the only hope for citizens to return to constitutional governance nonviolently will be for mass general strikes throughout the United States. Otherwise, everything our founders stood for in the creation of the Bill of Rights will be diluted to nothing before our eyes. I do not wish to live in a totalitarian United States of America.
Obama will try to get the immunity provision removed, but failing that will vote for the overhauled wiretapping bill anyway.
This is just another case where multiple issues are stacked into one bill, forcing legislators to either support something they don't want or vote against something they do want. Yes there is supposed to be a solid connection between all the parts of a bill, but legislators can't vote yea on one line item and nay on another and often time the connections between items on a single bill are tenuous. Tagging unpopular items to otherwise popular bills is one of the more common forms of corruption in our legislative process.
We are all just people.
You know, as much as I don't like seeing the telco companies getting of completely, I must admit I blame the government more than the companies themselves.
It was the government that started this whole ball rolling and the telcos were (more or less) just following orders.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
It was pointed out that this bill makes investigating what happened illegal. In order to bring a lawsuit, you need evidence don't you? If it's illegal to obtain evidence with an investigation wouldn't they attempt to throw out any lawsuit brought to them due to illegally obtained evidence?
Here's the thing. I look at a lot of Obama supporters today and I see in them a lot of the same things I saw in myself when I was big into the Republican Party.
The moral of the story is that you can't buy into any single party's message, and that you need to make either political party work hard for your vote. Nobody gets screwed over by a political party more than its most loyal supporters...
We need to get past the game that we are being worked towards, where we see Democrats and Republican as enemies, and re-learn to appreciate each other as citizens. We need to tell ourselve that it is as ok to be a redneck with his cars up on blocks (that's me), as it is to be a gay couple getting married, that a man has as much right to own rifle as he does to burn the flag, that, we together have natural rights that encompass not just the bill of rights, but beyond them. And, we need to understand that when someone else is trying to get us caught up in a civil war of even a political sort, they are only doing so that in the cause of protecting us from these imagined fellow citizens as enemies, that they are taking the rights of everyone.
This is my sig.
You (and others) are of the belief that this proof doesn't exist. I assure you it does and it is widely believed it does. Fmr. AG Gonzales testified to this fact and the telcos have used such arguments in their legal cases.
Congress said "yeah, we'll get your back if you can prove Bush asked you to do it" knowing full well that the telcos have such proof. It was a compromise in name only.
same as the old boss.
The Bush Administration are the real criminals in this case, why aren't they being held accountable? Everyone is gung ho about crucifying the Telco's, what about the people who ordered them to do the spying?
While I don't agree with what they did, I can understand why the Teclo's agreed to the situation. The Bush Administration probably assured them that were the program ever exposed, they would be granted immunity, and in the mean time they made a fair bit of money off the illegal activities of the government. Both groups should be tried for their actions, but people should be much more upset with the government over this.
Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
BUT it only gives immunity to wiretapping that started after 9/11. The program started before 9/11 - a few weeks after Bush took office, in fact. This was when the Bush people were ignoring terror threats so it was not about terrorists.
I don't know if that's a swipe against Democrats in general... but at least about half of them stood up and said no.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
What about 9/11/2001 is legally relevant? Ie, what makes wiretapping (or whatever it is being called) okay after that date?
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
I prefer no spying on US citizens at all, without a signed warrant.
There's a lot of cliches being bandied about in this conversation so let's add on more: don't let prefect be the enemy of the good.
As the parent mentioned, the only group willing to stand up for freedom is a fraction of the Democratic party. The entire Republican party has arrayed themselves against the Constitution. Remember that on election day.
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
Never have, we live in a representative republic.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
(1) Obama turned down federal financing the other day.
(2) He is totally reliant on private contributions to carry the campaign to the White House.
(3) It is the internet fund raising that has brought in huge dollars for him.
(4) Stop being adoring fans and start thinking like empowered citizens
(5) Get on Reddit, Digg, twitter, Facebook, etc.: NO FURTHER CONTRIBUTIONS until Obama proves leadership on Telecom Immunity
(6) Learn what it feels like to have real power.
Elect him president.
"Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
Then you continue to fail epically at this conversation, since the entire purpose of this bill is to hand off the immunity choice to the AG. All he has to do is send a letter and the telco is given immunity by Congress. Sure, a court might overrule that provision, but we're discussing the legislation right now and that's what the bill just passed by the House says.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
This is why the current weapons laws are completely backwards. The weapons that are illegal are exactly the ones we need to protect democracy, and the weapons that are legal are exactly the ones we should ban.
For instance, there is no reason for handguns to be available. They are not tools of war so much as of murder.
Antitank weapons, RPGs, and heavy-caliber machineguns, however, we should have. You can't arm a rebellion with the "Saturday night specials" used to rob take-out pizza restaurants.
I know that at first glance this sounds absurd, like I'm trying to write satire -- but I'm not. It's true that I'm not sure that I'm entirely serious, but I really do think that the logic is there.
I am directing my money toward those candidates who genuinely fight this absurd bill. I'm still hoping Obama will rejoin those ranks, but until then there is no shortage of campaigns I can contribute to. The 128 House Democrats who voted against it, for example.
(Oh, and I am noting who voted which way on this one. In two years I will be picking amongst about 105 primary challengers. Pelosi, Hoyer, I'm looking at you.)
All that said, voting third party is more effective than not voting at all, and whoever modded you flamebait is an idiot for doing so.
"IMHO there is only one way we can help Obama be in a position to make good with his promise to remove immunity.
Elect him president."
Revealing your fundamental misunderstanding of how the US government works. As a senator, Obama could put a hold on the bill, do a REAL filibuster (think Strom Thurmond), or use parliamentary tactics. His leadership won't stop him, because an internal fight right now is the last thing the Dems need.
As President, he would be faced with a bill that has ALREADY passed, and....what? He can't retroactively veto it. He can demand Congress change the bill, but Presidential demands are variable in power - is he really willing to burn up that much clout over something that, now that he is in power, will be SOOO attractive to use?
If he cared about that provision, he could stop it now, instead of mouthing platitudes in January 2009.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
That really doesn't make me like her any more, but rather, less. That basically means she bought/bribed her way to being speaker.
Okay, I don't usually do this for posts not my own, but who the hell moderated this as flamebait and why? It's a genuinely good point. At some point, if the two big parties are pissing you off, then you can do two things: Vote third party, or don't vote.
Personally, I'd rather someone vote if they're at least somewhat up to date on the issues, as GP appears to be. It's a LOT better than just wasting your vote*. There's nothing flamebaitish about asking someone to at least consider an alternative.
* I only consider not voting as a waste; even if you write in your own name that's at least something. Yes, third parties have a serious uphill battle. But if the people sitting out voted for them instead it would make an impact. And I get a feeling a lot of people will sit this one out.
Yet he's just another politician. In fact, I think his campaign has been the most calculatingly PR-driven of the bunch. The man doesn't even have a platform (yes, I've read his website), just a bunch of slogans involving abstract nouns.
Abstract nouns like "network neutrality"?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/#open-internet
Or "review of existing uses of our wireless spectrum"?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/#modern-communications
Or "a credit card rating system," and "Prohibit Interest on Fees"?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#credit-cards
Or "exemption in bankruptcy law for individuals who can prove they filed for bankruptcy because of medical expenses"?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#bankruptcy
How about "new Teacher Service Scholarship"? Or "American Opportunity Tax Credit"?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/#teachers
I think it strains credibility to say he "doesn't even have a platform." Or to claim that you've read his website.
People say Obama's a great orator, too, but I don't even see that.
That's fine.
Honestly, I think they just think "black man = good speaker"
Really? Do you have any evidence to back this up? I mean, yeah, people find certain famous ministers, MLK in particular, inspiring, but I'd be willing to lay down serious money that a decent poll on a significant set of the US population would *not* show a general perception of black males being better public speakers than white males.
I'd be very interested to be pointed to information to the contrary.
I feel reasonably confident that I know what I would be voting for if I voted for McCain.
If my acquaintances who've worked in the senate are any indication, you probably don't. Several of them went in with respect for him, and found that when the cameras are off, he's a very different person. At minimum vindictive and tyranical, and quite possibly unstable.
This is commentary from senate staffers who worked for *Republicans*, not democrats.
Of course, this is a random guy on the internet saying stuff, and there's no way to verify it really, unless you have access to acquaintances in the same circles, or until somebody there risks upsetting their position in that circle by standing up and saying something about it.
For a comparison: When I saw Wesley Clark a few years earlier (when he was running for president), he gave a speech in which he outlined specific policy objectives, and reserved time at the end to answer questions. He understood what he was talking about!
I like Wesley Clark, and everything I've seen leads me to believe think he'd be a good choice in the White House, and I don't doubt he understands some policy domains (particularly the obvious foreign and military ones) far better than Obama does.
Obama has his own domains of policy expertise, however -- community economic development in particular -- and I think he's shown he knows how to pick people with real knowledge in underlying domains (see, for example, his choice of tech advisor vs McCain... and MIT prof vs an industry lawyer).
he need (1) for a Palestinian state, and (2) to engage the Palestinians. Yet recently at AIPAC, he swore he would not talk to HAMAS (exactly contradicting his previous promises of engagement) and that "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided"
The AIPAC speech was a disaster, I think necessarily because Obama simultaneously doesn't want to abandon the Jewish constituency (and to some extent, zionist Christians) to McCain,
Tweet, tweet.
If Obama wants to get the money and support of the democrat party
Obama doesn't need party funding. He's got the largest war, er campaign, chest by collecting millions of dollars off of individuals over the net. Actually he went back on his pledge to use public financing because he's doing so well fund raising. McCain is starting to use that as an issue.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Voting Libertarian (esp. for U.S. President) is not a vote for the Libertarian candidate (after all, no Libertarian candidate for POTUS has any chance of being elected).
Instead, a vote for the Libertarian candidate is among the clearest messages one can send to the Dem/Rep parties of where there is a pool of voters they can actually attract if they adjust their approaches (or at least pretend to).
A libertarian voter should be realistic -- the best they can do now or in the near term is sway the views/actions of the mainstream candidates by voting for the Libertarian candidate.
Send a message to the losing party (Dem or Rep) in November by voting Libertarian. A vote for the Libertarian candidate is a vote for libertarian principles, not for whatever idiot the Libertarians picked this time around.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
Did they really? Because there was a lot of discussions surrounding how the administration thought they had the authority to do it.
I'm no constitutional authority, but nowhere in the Constitution of the USA does it give that power to the executive branch. And the Constitution is a limit on what government can do. It doesn't seem like it today but that's how it was written.
If they knew, you would think they wouldn't have bothered writing legal opinions and such to do it.
It just as possible any "legal opinions" were written to cover their asses. "See we wrote these to show we believed what we did was legal."
Would you want el Duce, Hilter, or Stalin to have the same power? How about Pol Pot? Idi Amin?
Totally irrelevant. Nothing this administration has done is remotely close to those people and going after the telecoms has no relation to any of it either.
It's very relevant, not even the NAZIs did everything at once. Instead they slowly whittled away. Hitler wasn't even given all the power he had until after the Reistag fire. And going after the telecoms will show they can be made to pay if they do anything illegal.
Would you prefer a government willing to go all the way when those people decide to invade?
What people invading where?
Or how about when your shopping at a mall and terrorist decide to blow it up for 72 virgins.
I'm more concerned about the Christian Talibans And Reconstructionists and Theocratic Dominionists who want to dictate how I live, if I don't live the way they dictate I'm stoned to death. Or how they are trying to get rid of science in school and teach Creationism, ID, instead. I still recall having an elementary school teacher in a public school forcibly apply a ruler to children's hands and arms, including my own, because we wouldn't say the pledge of allegiance with "under god". In a public school.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Why exactly is Bob Barr an "idiot?" I'm asking because I've looked at his positions, and, while we aren't going to agree on everything, I fail to see anything disingenuous much less idiotic.
Somebody here considers you insightful so please do elaborate on what's wrong with the party's candidate.