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Ask Jeremy White and Alexandre Julliard About the Future of WINE

Posted by timothy on from the don't-keep-those-puns-bottled-up dept.

Last week, after 15 years of development, tempered by the need for arduous reverse engineering, the WINE project released version 1.0. What "1.0" means for WINE is neither that the project is finished, nor that it is perfect, but rather that the software runs a small subset of specific freely downloadable Windows applications. That's not to say it doesn't run scads of others, too -- the apps database is proof that thousands of programs run to at least some degree. Here's your chance to ask WINE developer Jeremy White and WINE project lead Alexandre Julliard (both of Codeweavers) about the future of WINE, or any other questions about the project that cross your mind. The usual Slashdot interview rules apply; please ask as many questions as you'd like, but limit yourself to one question per post. We'll pass on the best questions to Jeremy and Alexandre for their answers.

36 of 346 comments (clear)

  1. What about the small unique apps? by suso · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hear people often say that its important for Wine to be able to run major applications like Office and Photoshop. However, from a migrate to Linux point, I think the thing that holds people up the most is the small propreitary applications that are written for a specific function. Is there going to be any focus on those programs in the future? Disclaimer, I realize that there are tens of thousands of such apps, but maybe many have something in common.

    1. Re:What about the small unique apps? by David+Gerard · · Score: 5, Informative

      Bugs in such apps are valid and they work hard on fixing them where at all possible. In fact, almost all such apps work just fine.

      What tends to happen is that a given area of Win32 is covered to the extent that all apps written with a tool that uses that area then work. So e.g. we're desperately waiting for .NET 2.0 to work properly in Wine.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    2. Re:What about the small unique apps? by chammy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      b) MS breaks backwards compatibility themselves, This has happened time and time again in the past. I have quite a large collection of programs that I've spent money on that no longer work on modern versions of windows. Since it's nearly impossible to get drivers for new hardware so I can run stuff like Win98 (soon to be the same for XP!) on my pc, I've found that Wine gives me a much better chance and getting old stuff to work.
  2. Most pressing issue... by pwnies · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think the question that is most pressing on our minds (and the one that will determine the magnitude of the pigs flying) is, "Will we be able to run Duke Nukem Forever on Wine 1.0 in the Year of the Linux Desktop?"

  3. No, wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    1.0 is used to mark the API as being stable: it is now safe to build your Windows' program's source code against the wine headers without having to worry about them changing in the future.

    That a few of the important Windows applications work was a side goal: the wine developers merely thought that it would be fitting, given the apparent significance of the 1.0 release name, to perfect support for what they can.

    Perhaps you're thinking of wine the wrong way. It is, first and foremost, a windows-compatible API for porting applications to posix.

    1. Re:No, wrong. by JustinOpinion · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Perhaps you're thinking of wine the wrong way. It is, first and foremost, a windows-compatible API for porting applications to posix. Actually that brings up a question I'd like to ask the Wine developers:


      As I understand it, Wine was originally intended to be both (1) a set of libraries that Windows developers could recompile their code against to run on other operating systems; and (2) a compatibility layer to run unmodified Windows binaries on other operating systems. Which one was the "primary" intent of Wine originally?

      Also, nowadays, it seems that the vast majority of people use Wine in mode (2). Few developers have used the Wine libraries to recompile their code. Is this a fair assessment? If so, how does this affect the way you develop the Wine codebase? Do you see this changing in the future?
  4. Re:10 years from now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    If in 10 years the dominant platform is Linux, or OS X, where does that leave WINE?

    Vinegar?
  5. Apple by Gewalt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Has anyone from WINE engaged apple to see about getting wine better ported and available to OSX users? I am currently using parallels to support my win32 needs under OSX, but that is all. I do not like the idea of having to pay FRP for a full windows OS when all I want to do is run win32 apps. I think it would be awesome to see WINE shipping directly in 10.7, with support from apple.

    --
    Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
  6. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wine was a great idea in its day but now with multi-core CPUs and excellent VMs (VMWare, VirtualBox, etc.) do you still see the need for Wine?

    1. Re:Why? by The+Warlock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      VMs are notoriously shitty at hardware-accelerated graphics.

      But hey, if that ever changes...

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    2. Re:Why? by Haeleth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Running Windows in a VM means you need a Windows license. Using WINE, you don't.

      Running Windows in a VM means your Windows apps are second-class citizens. Using WINE, everything is integrated into your regular desktop.

  7. Commercial Goals on Wine Project? by tgatliff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Question:

    With Vista stumbling terribly and now XP being removed from the marketplace, in the medium term do you see Wine / Linux as a true potential commercial viable alternative rather than just a niche as it is now? If so, what financial steps have you taken to prepare for legal threats?

    Thanks!! :)

  8. Re:10 years from now? by Orange+Crush · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If in 10 years the dominant platform is Linux, or OS X, where does that leave WINE?

    I can answer this one. WINE will still be around and used, because the (by then) 30 years worth of Windows software development will include applications still around and being used.

    Also, using 10 years as the endpoint for Windows dominance doesn't address what happens between then and now. It's going to have to be gradual, and as development shifts to a different platform, I guarantee some developers will be tweak their code to run in either Windows or WINE, or use Winelibs to shoehorn most of their application onto OSX and Linux.

  9. Re:10 years from now? by hr.wien · · Score: 4, Insightful

    About where Dosbox is today I reckon.

  10. Reverse-Engineering Routine by buchner.johannes · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How does your usual reverse engineering work flow look like? (How do you start, short note on tools, do you use (unit) tests)

    --
    NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  11. Wine in a world of virtual machines by yuna49 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With virtual machines becoming ever easier to install and use, maintaining a Windows VM on my Linux desktop substantially reduces my need for Wine. Will Wine become an afterthought in another ten years as we move to desktops running multiple operating systems simultaneously?

  12. Re:Important! by MBCook · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What pieces of software that aren't working do you think are the most important to get working next? Have there been any programs that you never expected to have so many people request?

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  13. XP or Vista by StarbuckZero · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Will the WINE project try to implement the Windows Vista APIs or will the project aim only for the Windows XP APIs? Seeing that Windows Vista didn't catch on and a lot of applications are still written for Windows XP. Maybe it is a good time to iron out the DirectX 9 and Windows XP DLLs.

    --
    From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
  14. WINE, dual-booting, and virtualization. by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I first started using GNU/Linux in 1999, I knew that if I wanted to run Windows apps, the best way to go about it was to dual-boot. Now, it appears that the most convenient way to run Windows apps is to run Windows in a virtual machine. Since both dual-booting and virtualization appear to be more convenient ways to run Windows apps than WINE, where does WINE fit in?

    --

    I write sci-fi for metalheads

    1. Re:WINE, dual-booting, and virtualization. by JustinOpinion · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would argue that Wine is much more convenient than virtualization... when it works, that is.

      When you run an app in Wine, it integrates (more or less) with your current desktop environment. It immediately has access to the same folder hierarchy. It also performs better (loading the wine libraries seems to have a lower overhead than loading a VM and an OS).*

      The only downside to Wine is that not every app runs, and some apps run but are a bit buggy.

      So I would say that Wine wins for convenience, whereas virtualization wins on "robustness": any app that runs on Windows will run on Windows in a VM. This is why I use both Wine and virtualization on my system: for most apps, I can just use Wine and it's treated like just another application. For those that don't work well in Wine, I can always open up the VM.

      ([*] Another aspect of performance to consider is things like hardware acceleration. Most VMs don't take advantage of 3D acceleration, whereas Wine in principle can.)

  15. Status of Wine by jlp2097 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hi,

    Suppose that the APIs delivered with Windows XP are the 100% baseline for app compatibility that you want to achieve. Could you give an estimate of how much percent is already implemented and how much work it would be to implement the rest?

    Thanks!

  16. I ask this as a sometime contributer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would like to ask what your plans are to improve the process of/increase the number of people contributing to Wine? Do you plan to provide more feedback on patches (they are often ignored without comment), for example? Do you see Alexandre ever trusting other devs enough to take over subsystems/individual dlls?

  17. What's the biggest obstacle for wine? by Scootin159 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What is the biggest obstacle in getting 100% Win32 API compatibility? Is it undocumented "features"? Inaccurate documentation from Microsoft? Fundamental differences between "Windows" and "Linux"? Other technical limitations?

  18. What about themes/skins? by protomala · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wine today runs fine, but as desktop linux visuals become better with nice themes, wine becomes more and more an alien in your computer. Is this any plan to make it more native in the look & feel?

  19. Re:10 years from now? by heffrey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What plans do you have for better multi-threading support?

  20. Re:Waste of Time by dotancohen · · Score: 4, Funny

    I tried Wine and it worked terribly.

    Exactly. It's a Windows emulator.

    (no, it's not, but for the purpose of the joke...)

    --
    It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  21. Office 97/2000 by MMC+Monster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With you working for codeweavers (which produces the excellent Crossover Linux package), do you see a conflict of interest in wine not directly supporting MSOffice 2K at the gold level?

    As a related question:
    How do you decide which portions of the code you write goes to wine and which are crossover-specific?

    --
    Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
    1. Re:Office 97/2000 by jmorris42 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      > do you see a conflict of interest in wine not directly supporting
      > MSOffice 2K at the gold level?

      I want to use your excellect question as a springboard to expand to a broader question about the relationship between Codeweavers, Crossover Office and Wine.

      I realize Crossover is what keeps you guys fed, clothed, etc. and more importantly for us users, adding code to the Wine repo. But there appear to be some downsides as well.

      For example, take the original poster's question. CX has supported various versions of Office since the first release (since you actually managed to sell copies it is safe to assume the first release would run a version of Office well enough to have happy customers) but Wine isn't known to reliably run ANY version of Office with anything that would be called reliability. Is this something that will always be true, to drive sales of CX? Would outside contributions that removed these limitations from Wine even be merged?

      More importantly than these specific questions, these issues and boundaries between Wine and CX aren't clearly spelled out. This becomes even more important now that Codeweavers is expanding the commercial product line into a game oriented product. We all realize Cedega is a bunch of leeches and probably won't ever be contributing anything of value back to Wine but if Codeweavers (meaning 'yall) also stop putting major functionality back into Wine or worse declining to merge competing versions...... Lots of questions, few answers.

      But the biggest question I can come up with is this one. What would be the point of me (me taken as generic) considering looking at Wine with an eye to contributing unless I am first a Crossover Office customer? Because the odds are good that any particular missing feature in Wine is already implemented in CX, so one would first want to test there to avoid reinventing a wheel that probably wouldn't get merged anyway. So logically it is hard to see a motivation to contribute to Wine directly, and contributing to CX as an unpaid volunteer doesn't exactly give most free software devels a warm fuzzy feeling.

      Mixed Free/Closed models are always a tricky balancing act. Clearly laying out what apps will be permitted to run under Wine and which will be reserved for CX would help people see where that line is going to be drawn.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
  22. Wine 2.0 by jbeaupre · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, what are your plans for Wine 2.0?

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  23. API good+bad by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Throughout all your adventures with the Win32 API, what would you say is the most brilliant part of the system, and which is the most horrible? Like, for which systems would you say, "Wow! I wish I had come up with that!" or "Dear GOD NO!"

  24. Notepad.exe works perfectly by Random+BedHead+Ed · · Score: 5, Funny

    I know making certain key applications work in time for the 1.0 milestone was one of the WINE team's goals, but I just wanted to thank the team, on behalf of everyone in the /. crowd, for making sure Notepad.exe was one of them. It was the first Windows program I tried to use under WINE and it performed flawlessly, making me feel a little more at home on Linux.

    We Linux users have been putting up with the likes of vim and Kate and gedit for years, but all of these editors come with major caveats, such as multiple levels of undo and the ability to read both UNIX and DOS text files. With WINE I've been able to use Notepad to delete entire lines when I really mean to delete only one word, and get little square characters where carriage returns should be. I'm so pleased by this app that I'll probably move on to trying Paint.exe next (the silly GIMP airbrush tool isn't as satisfyingly pixellated as the one MS Paint perfected way back in 1995).

    Keep up the good work in bringing the Redmond's best software to the Linux desktop!

  25. ReactOS by R_Dorothy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How much do the Wine and ReactOS teams contribute to each other's projects? What are your personal takes on ReactOS? Do you think it can become a serious Windows replacement?

    --
    Stupid flounders!
  26. MS-Office... by BUL2294 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Will WINE or Codeweavers make a commitment to fully support a recent vintage of MS-Office (2007, 2003, XP) as a platinum app? By "fully", I mean everything in the suite--including Access, Outlook, Publisher, the little helper apps, VBA, clipart, etc. When I look at WINE's appdb, I see no consistency to the ratings people give to recent versions of MS-Office, which means users are having varying degrees of problems. Unfortunately, for many people (myself included), MS-Office doesn't work with WINE... Why not assign a group of coders & testers the task of getting 100% of the functionality of this one extremely popular app working???

    --
    Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
  27. If Wine did not exist would you start it today? by ChaseTec · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wine was started before the rise in popularity of FOSS and Virtualization. If Wine did not already exist and someone pitched the idea of Wine to you would you: A) Tell them that it'd be better to promote FOSS software that can be ported to other OSes. B) Tell them to just use a virtualization product. C) Start Wine. Would you do it even if you thought FOSS would become more common than closed source applications in the future?

    --
    My Hello World is 512 bytes. But it's also a valid Fat12 boot sector, Fat12 file reader, and Pmode routine.
  28. USB support? by JayJay.br · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I know about usb-storage support, it works perfectly, but what about full USB support?

    Many USB devices require Windows apps to use them correctly. For me, Line6 USB products for audio come to mind, but i'm sure there are plenty of others.

    From what I've seen in the wine-devel discussions, it looks like a tough challenge. Are there any takers yet? What are the main showstoppers? Or, am I totally wrong on my figures and these other USB devices are not used that much?

    If these are a lot of questions, please stick to the first one :)

  29. Future Development - DIB Engine? More RPC work? by vinn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hm... I'll bite!

    Over the past few years we've seen major architectural concerns calm down. The DLL separation took a while, we had the major filesystem rewrite, and then in the past year we had the big windowing changes. Oh, and then throw in the big changes to support copy protection, real services, and oodles of D3D updates.

    So where does that leave us? Are there any major architectural changes in the pipe? There are rumors Codeweavers will integrate a DIB engine - what does that do and why is that necessary? What about in the RPC world? Jeremy - you've battled with audio, how do you feel Wine is doing with regards to audio support?

    --
    ----- obSig