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RIAA's SafeNet Caught In a Lie

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "For the past 2 years, the RIAA and its attack dog SafeNet (formerly known as MediaSentry) have been trying to avoid disclosure in UMG v. Lindor by telling the judge that MediaSentry is NOT an expert, that it does not use any technical expertise to get the 'evidence', and that it does only 'what any other Kazaa user does'. We have just discovered that in administrative proceedings in Michigan, attacking it for engaging in the business of investigation without a license, MediaSentry has taken the exact opposite position, comparing itself to chemical engineers, surveyors, physicians, geologists, and other expert witnesses who rely on their technical expertise. Today we went public with some of the contradictions. Now let's hope Michigan's Department of Labor and Economic Growth finds out about it."

29 of 242 comments (clear)

  1. Really? by thrashee · · Score: 5, Funny

    Absolutely SHOCKED that the RIAA was bending the truth in order to justify its actions.

  2. Bending the truth may be light by martinw89 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sounds to me more like lying, what with the two stances being exact opposites.

    1. Re:Bending the truth may be light by SpiderClan · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, it isn't lying.

      It's just bending the truth all the way around.

    2. Re:Bending the truth may be light by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 5, Funny

      Moebius strip of truth!

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      FGD 135
    3. Re:Bending the truth may be light by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Funny

      THe Moebius strip of truth only has one side. This is more like the Klein bottle of truth: everything fits inside, all at the same time.

    4. Re:Bending the truth may be light by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It might not exactly be lying, but it's the kind of thing that would really piss a federal judge off!

    5. Re:Bending the truth may be light by owlman17 · · Score: 5, Funny

      And we all know that the cake is a lie.

    6. Re:Bending the truth may be light by FuturePastNow · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can eat your cake and still have it, it just takes a little patience. Although the cake will look different, and it'll smell bad.

      --
      Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
    7. Re:Bending the truth may be light by Idiomatick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I congratulate you for making a nerdy joke even more nerdy. More importantly, one that's technically correct ... the best kind of correct.

    8. Re:Bending the truth may be light by tpheiska · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Intrestingly enough, in Finland, the plaintiff is allowed to lie. Actually, he is allowed to say nothing, to tell the truth, or to lie. Witnesses are held under oath to tell the truth and we don't have the jury system. All of this would make Finland very unsuitable to court drama series' but believe it or not, it actually works.

      --
      "wahts woring iwth my tyoping?"
    9. Re:Bending the truth may be light by asnare · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, a bit of googling reveals that the Kettle thing is called "pleading the alternative". It seems to often be allowed, but differs from what the RIAA/SafeNet are doing.

      This article discusses the distinction. In particular, paragraphs 2 and 3 provide a good summary:

      "Judicial estoppel is an equitable doctrine that protects the integrity of the judicial process. Cummings v. Bahr, 295 N.J. Super. 374, 387 (App. Div. 1996). It "preclud[es] a party from asserting a position in a case that contradicts or is inconsistent with a position previously asserted by the party in the case or a related legal proceeding." Tamburelli Prop. Ass'n v. Borough of Cresskill, 308 N.J. Super. 326, 335 (App. Div. 1998) (citation omitted).

      Judicial estoppel does not prevent litigants from pleading alternative positions; rather, it "is designed to prevent litigants from playing fast and loose with the courts." Newell v. Hudson, 376 N.J. Super. 29, 38 (App. Div. 2005) (citation omitted). "[A] party must successfully assert a position in order to be estopped from asserting a contrary position in future proceedings." Cummings, supra, 295 N.J. Super. at 386. Prior success does not necessarily mean that the party benefited from the position taken, but only that a court allowed them to maintain that position and relied on it to make a judicial determination. Id. at 387.

    10. Re:Bending the truth may be light by mpe · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's not over yet. RIAA is still alive...

      Or at least "undead".

    11. Re:Bending the truth may be light by Keeper+Of+Keys · · Score: 5, Funny

      But, like the RIAA's cases, it doesn't hold water.

  3. I've seen this happen before by techno-vampire · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Years ago I was a juror on a civil trial. At one point, the defence counsel had one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs on the stand. He read off one of the claims that attorney had made in the case and asked him if he'd ever argued anything contrary to it. "No, of course not." Then, the defence attorney read into the record part of a brief from another case where the witness had argued the exact opposite of what he now claimed. I won't say it's common, but it's not exactly unheard of.

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    Good, inexpensive web hosting
    1. Re:I've seen this happen before by slimjim8094 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In theory, there's a distinct upper bound on the number of cases they can bring without a radical change in tactics. There are only so many judges, and it seems like a large percentage (if not a majority) are unhappy/made aware about their tricks. They will be on the lookout the next time they have a case brought to them.

      Or is the churn in judges enough that they can always take it to a new, fresh judge?

      Even in that case, you have to figure that their acts get around. If it's on Slashdot, you can be sure the judges are talking to each other or something.

      --
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    2. Re:I've seen this happen before by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Funny

      I wonder if the statements from Michigan can be sent to Lindor's legal team?

      I am "Lindor's legal team".

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      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    3. Re:I've seen this happen before by thisissilly · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, no. Phase 3 will be when the RIAA succeed in bribing Congress into making copyright infringement a federal crime, and thus get to shuck off the whole lawyer expense off to the Department of Justice, who will immediately go whining to Congress to get more money to hire more agents in order to detect and prosecute more cases. And so that way our taxes will pay to defend the RIAA companies from any possible loss due to infringement, while they get to keep any profit.

      I seriously hope I am wrong. But I fear I may be right.

  4. NYCL's Web Site Down. by russlar · · Score: 5, Funny

    Did Media Sentry, I'm sorry, SafeNet DDoS him, too?

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    Anybody want my mod points?
  5. Isn't it obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    They gained experience from their previous ordeal, and can now claim to be "experts".

  6. One of the worst companies to work for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I worked for SafeNet in "quality assurance" when I was in high school (I'm 23 now) to test the quality of their hardware security solutions. And let me tell you, they are one of the worst companies on earth to work for. They treat their employees like crap, as they started laying off some of their best employees and brought in foreign help on H1B visas.

    They really lost their way when they got out of the hardware based security business and became the cronies for the RIAA/MPAA. Contradiction is not a new thing to SafeNet. They claimed (and still claim) to be supporting the local economy in Harford County, Maryland, where their Corp HQ is, when all they were doing was outsourcing jobs and bringing in H1B workers to cut costs.

    Terrible company, and I'm not surprised that they finally got caught in the web of their pathological lies.

  7. Let them know about it! by suck_burners_rice · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Instead of merely hoping that Michigan's Department of Labor and Economic Growth finds out about it, why not let them know? If dishonesty was involved in the Michigan proceedings, they SHOULD know about it. Us geeks from Slashdot should write to them and POLITELY let them know about the aforementioned contradiction and why it is of importance. Look through their contacts page (link located at center top of Department of Labor and Economic Growth page) to find the office or person you believe is the best one to notify. In your correspondence, please be clear, concise, and polite.

    --
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    1. Re:Let them know about it! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is not a single word in Otter's "analysis" which comes from any of the cited documents. He appears not to have actually bothered to read them.

      In fact, the RIAA and MediaSentry have consistently taken the position in UMG v. Lindor for 2 years that MediaSentry is NOT an expert and did NOT use technical expertise, but did "what any Kazaa user can do". They did not make this statement once or twice, but probably in the neighborhood of a dozen times. I culled just 3 of them.

      Within weeks of making that statement in Lindor, Mr. Mullaney had made the exact opposite statement in the Michigan proceedings, saying MediaSentry was a technical expert which utilized its technical expertise in obtaining the evidence, just like a physician, a surveyor, a geologist, or a chemical engineer.... (all of which are clearly expert witnesses who would be subject to expert witness disclosure in federal litigations).

      Any person who actually read (a) Mr. Mullaney's letter in the Michigan case, and (b) the three documents in the Lindor case, would have to agree with that statement.

      Apparently Mr. Otter has some kind of grudge against me, and -- like his soulmates in the RIAA -- is willing to fabricate facts in order to 'make his case'. Mr. Otter please read the documents, and then please apologize.

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      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  8. dude your rock by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Funny

    NewYorkCountryLawyer: the anti-Jack Thompson

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    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  9. There are WMDs in Iraq... somewhere... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RIAA is just following the example set by the white house... which is:

    1. Say whatever you have to say, in order to do whatever you want to do.
    2.Do it
    3. Claim that it isn't your fault that your explanation isn't entirely true ... that the commies/soviets/canadians are actually manipulating things behind the scenes
    4. force your new laws which were based on false assumptions on everything. Including those who you technically can't force your restrictions on.
    5. Call everyone who doesn't comply a pirate / ninja / terrorist.

  10. Is this really surprising? by steveha · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought lawyers made contradictory arguments all the time.

    Here's a joke/story I heard years ago. This lawyer is in a courtroom, defending a client. The plaintiff claims the defendant borrowed a new pot and returned it in broken condition. The lawyer makes his opening statement: "There are three facts that prove my client is innocent. First, he never borrowed that pot. Second, it was already broken when he borrowed it. Third, when he returned it, it was in perfect condition."

    steveha

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  11. can't resist . . . by catbertscousin · · Score: 5, Funny

    In Soviet Russia, "Lindor's legal team" is you!

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    No good deed goes unpunished. - Avon, Blake's 7
  12. Yes, it IS lying by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They can be experts, or they can be amateurs, but they cannot be both at the same time. So one of those (and we know which one) is a LIE.

    1. Re:Yes, it IS lying by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's obvious which one is the lie. They certainly are NOT security experts, as was amply documented in their leaked email last year! Their amateur hour antics were hilarious, and there was no evidence that security was taking place in that organization.

      Of course this doesn't help the ongoing RIAA litigation. But it should slow down the idiots who think that SafeNet is doing them some good. Oh, wait, that's the RIAA, too. Damn.

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      John
  13. Did you really mean this? by Kupfernigk · · Score: 5, Informative
    My eldest child is a lawyer, and has been involved in several Finnish cases. As far as I am aware, the position as regards the plaintiff is the same as everywhere else in Europe: the plaintiff is NOT allowed to lie. This is perjury.

    I rather suspect you mean that the defendant is not prosecuted for lying, as such. This is usually the case in much of Europe. Criminals who plead not guilty do not receive extra sentences for having lied as well as having committed the original crime.

    In fact Finland is a member of the EU, its judicial system must meet European standards, and a judicial system which permitted plaintiffs to lie would fail the European Union human rights test.

    --
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