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Superconducting Power Grid Launches In New York

EmagGeek writes "IEEE is running a story about a new superconducting power grid that was energized in April in New York State. The lines operate at 138kV and are cooled to 65-75K to maintain superconductivity. These lines are run underground and can carry 150 times more electricity than copper lines of the same cross section. The project is funded with taxpayer dollars through the Department of Energy." A related story at MarketWatch indicates that this is part of a large-scale effort to upgrade aging infrastructure.

18 of 264 comments (clear)

  1. I'd contribute funds to that... by stevedcc · · Score: 5, Funny

    If I could get my pc on the cooling network..... mmmmmm, 65K. Should be enough for anybody!

    --
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  2. Cool! by Plazmid · · Score: 4, Funny

    I am going to go find a place where these lines aren't underground and see if I can get my neodymium magnets to levitate on it. Maybe even play some superconducting variant of hockey...

  3. Hmmm... by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From TFA:

    Besides economics, another advantage the company is touting is that the cables can prevent fault currents, surges that are caused by grid-scale short circuits. Superconductors have an inherent current-limiting ability in that if the current increases past a certain threshold, they lose their superconducting abilities and become normally resistive, damping the current.

    Hmm, interesting, but there's more. simply follow the links in TFA and you'll come to these:

    "So there's been a stir over the disclosure that AMSC is under investigation by the office of Representative John Dingell, a Democratic congressman from Michigan, one of the most influential U.S. legislators, and an aggressive inquisitor."

    "The incident that aroused Dingell's suspicions was the award in 2006 by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security of a multi-million dollar no-bid contract to AMSC to develop and test what it's calling Secure Super Grids in New York City. Working with the local utility Consolidated Edison Co., AMSC plans to develop and install superconducting cables that would connect substations in a much tighter mesh, so that if stations or feeder cables fail, power can be instantly rerouted. Feeder cable failures were implicated in the 1999 and 2006 New York City neighborhood blackouts."

    Wow, I didn't know the DHS was responsible for awarding no-bid contracts to energy interests. There ain't no business like no-bidness!

  4. Wow, !vaporware? by martinw89 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the influx of superconducting articles I got a pretty good feel of "hight temperature" superconducting being vaporware. It's cool that we're seeing real world applications now. TFA even tries to trick you into not believing the summary by saying they were "commissioned", but if I read correctly they mean "was put on the power grid" by commissioned, not "was approved to be built."

    1. Re:Wow, !vaporware? by tttonyyy · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's cool that we're seeing real world applications now.

      Superconducters are way cool man.

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  5. Saving Energy by dlevitan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe the US will now leapfrog from an antiquated power distribution system to the most advanced in the world. Maybe. One positive aspect of this is the reduction of energy loss due to the superconductivity. This may also allow long distance lines to be run (even though the cooling will be a problem) which might help balance out the grid when needed.

    According to Wikipedia, super conducting cables will use roughly half the energy saved for cooling, but since losses are around 7%, that's still a rather high amount of energy saved.

  6. Re:Possible new 'Terrorism' target? by RustinHWright · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, in a perfect world (we can at least hope) lines would be kept a bit below theoretical optimum temperature and surrounded with some high thermal mass cladding within the insulation. That would at least buy some time for the system to get repaired. Since you're dealing with a cylindrical cross-section your surface area to volume ratio is at least as good as it can get to minimize heating.
    There are many, many ways to build a system to manage loss of coolant, nuclear reactor scrambles being obvious extreme versions. Some of these approaches could be used in a case like this. But we're dealing with Con Ed here, the guys who neglected maintenance such that we ended up having three major blackouts in ten years. So I'm not optimistic. The only thing that we should remember is that at least in theory such problems are somewhat addressable, not least by just the kind of rerouting that this system is supposed to make much easier and faster.

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  7. Re:Possible new 'Terrorism' target? by lgw · · Score: 4, Informative

    Underground power cables are struck by lightning amazingly often - I think more often than high-tension lines. Lighting strikes originate quite deep - given they cross 8 km of air gap, several meters of damp earth should come as no surprise.

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  8. Superconductors = almost no heat by DrYak · · Score: 5, Informative

    how much energy does it cost to keep them so cool?

    Not as much as you may think.

    The whole point of using super conductors is that their resistance is incredibly low, almost 0 ohm. They are thus highly efficient and don't lose much energy into heat through Joule effect, compared to classical conductors used in regular power lines. They will naturally stay cool.

    So it costs some significant amount of power to cool them down to their working temperature, but once there, the super conductors keep their temperature almost for free, you only have to make up for what is lost because of the insulation.

    Similar superconductors are used in the high-field super-magnet inside medial MRI machines. And those machine doesn't need a whole nuclear plant's worth of energy to keep them cool.

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    1. Re:Superconductors = almost no heat by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Informative

      But they do have impedance (which often confuses people). They also have radiative losses: some electro-magnetic enegy can, and will, couple into nearby objects and be dissipated there.

    2. Re:Superconductors = almost no heat by duffbeer703 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if it took alot of energy to cool the lines, these would still make sense in NY. Long Island is like the epicenter of the NIMBY philosophy, so no new power generation has been added for 30-40 years. Most new power is actually transported from the large hydro projects in Quebec. Using the existing power rights of way, 60-75% of each marginal increase in power transmission is lost in transit. So if you send 10 units of electricity from Quebec, 2-4 units will come out on the other end.

      --
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    3. Re:Superconductors = almost no heat by OldMiner · · Score: 5, Informative

      You use the right words for an electircal engineer, but your conclusions are inaccurate.

      Skin effect doesn't reduce inductive losses. It just means you generally increase resistive losses bceause your effective cross section is reduced. High voltage AC transmission lines are famously inductive, such that transmission line workers where metal mesh in their suits so they don't get the weird feeling of the oscilating magnetic field through their bodies.

      And, no, long distance transmission lines are most decidedly NOT DC in the U.S. Now, in Brasil and China, yes, long haul DC transmission lines exist. But they have to pay a huge cost in terms of equipment for this. It's balanced out due to the decreased construction cost and resistive losses. Long haul DC lines are only economical when you have a massive distance between your power generation and utilization, or you're trying to balance load over a rather massive area.

      In the area of my ignorance, though, I don't know if inductive losses would ever be significant for a superconductor. One of the defining characteristics of superconductivity is that external magnetic fields only penetrate a tiny distance (~100 nanometers) into the superconductor. I don't know if there might be a similar oddity which prevents them from generating a magnetic field outside of the conductor and coupling with other conductors.

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  9. Re:Forget wires by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I disagree. Large-scale power distribution is pretty much always more efficient. Even if you are talking about solar, then large-scale sun-tracking mirrors focussing on central elements is more efficient than individual scattered cells. The problem, currently, is that you lose a lot of what you gain when you transmit it a long way. If you have superconducting wires then it becomes possible to convert a large part of the Sahara desert into a solar array and supply all of Europe, and do the same with plants in the middle of the US for cities on the edge.

    This is only a 150 metre prototype, but if the technology scales then it will have a major effect on the economics of power distribution.

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  10. Re:reliability ? by ptbarnett · · Score: 4, Informative

    One of the characteristic sights on New York City streets is big tanks of liquid nitrogen standing on the sidewalk, steaming away, with lines running from them down a manhole. Why? Because, iirc, many of the telephone company switching systems already run supercooled and when a repair needs to be done they need supplementary chilling.

    Those nitrogen tanks are used by Verizon to pressurize underground telephone cables and keep moisture out:

    http://gothamist.com/2008/01/31/nitrogen_tanks.php

  11. Re:Heat from environment by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

    The hotter the environment, the worse the thermal insulation

    They run it through New York state to take advantage of the Hillary Cooling Effect.

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  12. Re:Possible new 'Terrorism' target? by Nimey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wish that was funny and not depressing.

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  13. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  14. They can feel the magnetic field? by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    High voltage AC transmission lines are famously inductive, such that transmission line workers where metal mesh in their suits so they don't get the weird feeling of the oscilating magnetic field through their bodies.

    That's wild... it is news to me that humans are able to directly perceive even very strong magnetic fields. For example, I don't think patients feel anything when undergoing an MRI procedure. Can you cite a source for this information? Thanks

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