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KDE Responds To Misconceptions About KDE 4

Jiilik Oiolosse writes "PJ at Groklaw speaks with a member of the KDE team about some of the common myths circulating about KDE 4. 'There has been a bit of a dustup about KDE 4.0. A lot of opinions have been expressed, but I thought you might like to hear from KDE. So I wrote to them and asked if they'd be willing to explain their choices and answer the main complaints. They graciously agreed.' Among the topics discussed are: 'Releasing KDE 4.0 was a mistake,' 'I cannot put files on my desktop,' and 'KDE should just have ported KDE 3.5 to Qt 4 and not add all that other experimental stuff right away.'"

11 of 279 comments (clear)

  1. OS X vs. KDE and others by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The OSS community have managed to build a better browser than IE, but how come they haven't been able to duplicate the Apple GUI experience? Is it just a case of OSS lagging behind commercial companies etc., and soon Linux will be on par with OS X. Or is there more to it than that, such as difference philosophies or lack of people with good a understanding of user psychology and graphic design principles?

    1. Re:OS X vs. KDE and others by jacquesm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have both mac os/x and linux here and I *far* prefer KDE (3) over os/x, I just can't seem to get used to the main menu switching all the time depending on what has focus. I prefer 'stateless' designs over state any time.

    2. Re:OS X vs. KDE and others by poopdeville · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Graphic design principle are important (as are typographic principles, and so on), but...

      Apple has kept the same keyboard shortcuts for EVER. Apple-C defined the 'copy' operation with the Lisa, in the early 80s. Apple-X is cut, Apple-P is paste. The symbols on the keyboard aren't the same anymore, but the keys are.

      Don't think I'm accusing MS (or anyone else) of anything -- they have been consistent too. But KDE broke their consistent streak with KDE 4. That can be a good thing, when a project has a user interface that truly is better for a certain purpose. I don't have a strong opinion about KDE 4, specifically because I couldn't be bothered to figure it out. I tried it, and the basics are fine, but it still lacks some of the features I use in my workflow.

      Instead, I'm learning Haskell so I can get xmonad to work how I want it to -- mostly I want vim/OS X-like keyboard shortcuts everywhere. (I do realize OS X uses "emacs style" shortcuts, but ultimately, as long as they don't conflict and can use WINDOWS or APPLE over CTRL, I am happy, just because of ergonomics)

      On one hand, this makes me a mega-nerd. I do realize that. On the other, KDE 3 let me nerd out without having to learn much about it. KDE 4 is different enough that I would have to, and I would rather learn something simple instead. xmonad is implemented in under 1500 lines of Haskell. I can completely understand that much code, and bend it to my will without much more effort than installing and reading it.

      The punch line to my post is that KDE 4 is a fine open source release, in the sense that fresh development is going on because it came out. It could have been called KDE4-DEV or something, but almost every open source release is a development version. That's kind of the point. On the other hand, it's still not ready for me, so I am actively passing on it.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    3. Re:OS X vs. KDE and others by osu-neko · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Heh. For the most part, you've just named a list of reasons why I prefer OS X over the alternatives. Probably the biggest thing on the list is the Zoom button. Windows got it completely wrong, and nearly every other GUI I've seen utterly borks it too. My biggest complaint about non-Mac GUI's was always the screwed up Zoom button, which would senselessly expand the window far beyond the limits of the contents, leaving huge amounts of empty space in the window blocking windows and desktop behind it for no reason at all whatsoever. I can understand why it's done that way -- it's easier to do. It's harder to get Zoom right than to just make a window take up the whole screen (whether that makes any sense or not) -- easy out for lazy programmers. But the lack of a proper Zoom button is a major GUI flaw IMHO, and throwing it a brain-dead Maximize button is a poor substitute.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  2. This seems familiar... by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The first impression I get, after a quick skim of the article, is that it sounds like they are having the same kind of problems with KDE 4 acceptance that Microsoft is having with Vista. Their users like the previous version a lot, don't see the value of the changes, and so on.

  3. Re:KDE4.1 great for geeks, not ready for simple us by segedunum · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's unfortunate that KDE developers still try to deny or at least greatly minimize the impact of these kind of problems.

    Problems with what? You're running around like a geek trying to run a piece of software that hasn't been out for even a few months and you're complaining it has shortcomings and some things missing? Stop press, news at 11.

    Meanwhile, back on planet Earth people are still using KDE 3.5.x, they will probably use successive versions of it as well, and when the general consensus is that KDE 4.x looks OK then you'll start to see a natural move to it. That's what naturally tends to happen with these things. You just......................stop worrying. If you're an early adopter then that's exactly what you are. I hear that people actually pay for licenses for that privilege, and they complain less than the furore we've had with KDE 4. Go figure.

  4. Re:Misconceptions? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If KDE4 is not finished, why announcing it as a deliverable product?

    What distribution ships with KDE4 as the desktop by default? I'm not aware of any.

    What everyone expects from a new major release is no less features and stability than the older ones.

    I didn't expect a feature complete KDE4.0, but that is because I actually read the announcements by the KDE team.

    Whenever this is not the case, a flop is waiting at the corner (as a lot of people learned from Vista).

    How does Vista have less features than XP and where does it lack functionality where XP has?

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  5. KDE 4.0 as a beta by golodh · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Wise words! Just wait patiently for the KDE developers to sort things out and make sure you have an alternative.

    However I firmly believe that KDE really messed up when it comes to mamaging user expectations.

    Call something KDE 4.0 and people will believe it's fully functional ready to roll. And find themselves sorely disappointed. Call it "KDE 4.0 Developer Release" and people will understand what it is and is not.

    One thing that irks me in KDE's reply though is that they give the impression that they clearly communicated what KDE 4.0 was and was not. I disagree. I visited kde.org a few times to find precisely that information, and it simply wasn't there.

    That's why I was so happy with SuSE's honest and up-front statement about KDE 4.0 (see http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=528652&cid=23135548 ) that told me everything KDE.org didn't. No amount of post-furor explanations will take that away.

  6. I'm unhappy... by mangu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just wait patiently for the KDE developers to sort things out and make sure you have an alternative.

    But are they on the right path? From what I have seen in KDE4.0, it seems to me that everything they have done is a step backwards.

    Basically, the problem is: if it's working fine, why change? For instance, I'm still using the KDE-classic icon set because I see no reason to get glossier icons, I recognize instantly the old icons and that's what matters.

    The big point about KDE has always been its capability for personal configuration. I prefer to use just one desktop, so I don't have a desktop selector applet in my taskbar. I prefer not to put icons on my desktop, since the desktop is always covered by the windows I'm using, so I have my favorite apps icons in my taskbar and use konqueror in the file management mode to open documents. That's the way I prefer, other people think differently, but KDE3.5 lets everyone be happy with their choices.

    I've never adapted to Gnome, because the philosophy is different there, it seems to be about making it easier to do things, at the expense of configurability. Well, for me the easiest way to do things is to do them the way I find easier, not the way someone else prefers.

    I can hear people telling me, "OK, if you don't like things as they are, just go ahead and change them, the source code is there". Well, I have neither the time nor the inclination to start developing the KDE user interface. I'm not complaining, they were under no obligation to develop KDE for me anyhow, but let's say I'm lamenting the way things are going.

    1. Re:I'm unhappy... by pherthyl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >> Basically, the problem is: if it's working fine, why change? For instance, I'm still using the KDE-classic icon set because I see no reason to get glossier icons, I recognize instantly the old icons and that's what matters.

      Familiarity is nice to avoid retraining, but you won't be attracting any new users/devs with ugly interfaces. Sounds shallow but its a fact of life. Aesthetics matter.

      >> The big point about KDE has always been its capability for personal configuration. I prefer to use just one desktop, so I don't have a desktop selector applet in my taskbar. I prefer not to put icons on my desktop, since the desktop is always covered by the windows I'm using, so I have my favorite apps icons in my taskbar and use konqueror in the file management mode to open documents.

      All of those things are possible in KDE 4 (at least the version I'm using, perhaps even in 4.0.x).

      I think the configuration culture hasn't gone, but there does have to be a better reason to add an option now. Some options are simply missing because they haven't been added back, but will be as soon as possible.

  7. It is all about self-defined goals, is not it? by mi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We only failed with KDE 4.0 if we measure the work based on others' criteria, not our clearly stated goals.

    This particular line is especially pathetic — even if truthful. Yes, according to others, we royally screwed up, but, fortunately, we had our own definitions of the goals.

    To see this guys try to wriggle out of this shame is as unpleasant as trying to use their software. They've "redefined" an alpha pre-release as a "4.0". They've followed up with several minor post-releases (it is at 4.0.4 right now, is not it?) — which continue to be both feature-incomplete and buggy. But, I guess, if none of that was among their "clearly stated goals", things are dandy...

    To call release of Plasma — the "new development from the ground up" — a "success" by any definition is a bad joke. The software screws itself up every once in a while so badly, the Internet-forums are already full of of advises, like this "just delete .kde/share/config/plasmarc".

    KDE appears to have grown a serious marketing department some time ago — I noticed this during their pre-release "tension build-up", which was not unlike that of a new X-Box or iPhone. Heck, their "release party" was Google-sponsored! Except the new X-Box and iPhone work (save, maybe, for a few glitches). KDE4, on the other hand, does not — by anybody's definition, except, maybe, their own.

    This most recent "gracious" response is just another marketing spin-attempt...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.