UK Hacker Loses Extradition Appeal

the4thdimension writes "A UK man, accused of breaking into US Pentagon and NASA computers in March 2001, lost an extradition appeal that would have freed him, or at least had him tried in the UK. While the US accuses him of causing over $900,000 in computer damage, his attorney asserts that, if extradited to the US, he faces harsh penalties that are "intolerable" and '...the British government declined to prosecute him to enable the U.S. government to make an example of him.' He intends to appeal to the European courts."

Comments

Ah the Uk

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK, acting like the US' fucking lapdog, again. If I were PM I'd be telling the US government where they can shove their 'special relationship' and their entirely one-sided extradition treaty. Then I'd tell them to put ACTA in the same place.

So, whaddya reckon chaps? Think Anonymous Coward could succeed Gordon Brown?

Re:Ah the Uk

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Some of us here in the States are pretty fed up with the US throwing its weight around on the world stage, also.

Re:Ah the Uk

[zsau]

Don't worry, the way things are going you'll involuntarily stop soon enough.

Re:Ah the Uk

[G0rAk]

We discuss this point every time Gary McKinnon's case comes up, but lets go over the problems with the UK-US fast track extradition agreement one more time:

The agreement is supposed to be reciprocal however the US have not implemented their end of it. We can not fast track the extradition of US citizens but any UK citizen can be fast tracked. All of this was introduced to "fight terrorism" but has largely been used for cases like this and the NatWest Three.

Secondly our law forbids the extradition of persons to countries where they may face inhuman or unreasonable punishment. As such all states which implement the death penalty fall under this heading. The US should fall under this heading.

There are many other reasons why the UK can rightly be labelled a lap dog unrelated to these issues, our Special Relationship with the US is largely asking how high when told to jump.

Re:Ah the Uk

[spottedkangaroo]

Not without a billion dollars. Dollars are the only votes left that mean anything here. To that end, I send spare dollars to the EFF since they're actually getting things done; things that complaining and protesting do not get done.

one-way treaty

[cliffski]

For me the big story is the one-sided nature of this treaty. We regularly extradite suspects to the USA, yet the USA refuses to do the same for people living in the USA wanted for crimes in the UK.
That's just insane, and our government are spineless scum for agreeing to it.

Re:one-way treaty

[Frosty Piss]

That's because the UK is our bitch. Come on now, you know it's true.

Re:one-way treaty

[the eric conspiracy]

"an agency"???

Give me a break. I thought the brits had a reasonable understanding of how the courts in the US work. This moron committed a quite serious crime; it is not at all unreasonable that he should suffer significant consequences.

Here is a bit of writeup on the topic in the Washington Post:

McKinnon's lawyers alleged that an American official had told him he would be forced to serve a lengthy sentence in the United States if he fought against his extradition, something they say amounted to an unlawful threat.

The five Law Lords were unanimous in deciding McKinnon had failed to prove his case.

So the brits had their chance to decide if these claims of unfair treatment were credible or not and decided NOT. So WTF is all the whining about? At the absolute highest level this was decided internally in England - the signing of the original treaty PLUS an appeals process. I don't see how this could have been more fair.

Re:one-way treaty

[pzs]

Luckily, the policy positions of the UK government do not entirely represent the UK, otherwise I'd completely agree with you.

Outside of the spineless lap-dogs in the government, we still have art, music, comedy and other culture that is very much independent of the United States (although, of course, influenced by US culture) and still worth something.

I may not be very proud of my government but I am (occasionally) proud of the citizens of the UK.

Re:one-way treaty

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I thought the brits had a reasonable understanding of how the courts in the US work. This moron committed a quite serious crime;

Outside of US jurisdiction. McKinnon accessed the US servers from the UK, from his home in London in fact. I remind everyone that though he was arrested in the UK, to date, no charges have ever been brought against him by the UK government. His own county does not consider his actions criminal, yet he is being extradited to the US for actions committed outside of its borders.

But you're right. This is exactly how US courts work. Underhandedly and extrajudicially. It is no accident that the US set up the camp in Guantanamo, as historically the rule of law does not have a strong foundation in America. Segregation, McCarthyism, Wiretaps, etc. The United States is not known for its strict adherence to enlightenment principles.

America emerged as a result of colonists griping about paying taxes. To their credit, the Founding Fathers did try to legitimize the whole affair by implementing a progressive democratic constitution. And to be fair, this document was hugely influential. But ultimately, America as a country was born from and lives by the Almighty Buck. Your country does have a liberal democratic streak, but the basic principles of western society are not as strong in America as they are in Europe, where events from the French Revolution to World War 2 have really solidified respect for things like the rule of law.

In short, McKinnon's extradition was a bad idea. He is being sent to a country with a poor record of judicial fairness, and for something that was not illegal in his native land. It is a sharp litmus test of the UK's current relationship with the US, which has made clear that the UK is now little more than a vassal state in a larger Anglosphere.

McKinnon had the misfortune of being born and raised in an English speaking country. If he was French, or German, or just about any other western european nationality, this would never have gotten this far. If he takes it to the european court, which probably will refuse to hear the case, I cannot see them allowing his extradition. For reasons mentioned above, these countries do tend to hold truer to more basic principles.

There's still the EU

[serviscope_minor]

Hopefully the EU court will have something else to say about this. But anyway, thanks, Blair + new labour for completely fucking up a country.

Not a death penalty case

[elrous0]

The "intolerable" argument seems like a stretch to me (to say the least). The guy isn't facing the death penalty and U.S. prisons (especially the minimum security ones, where this guy will probably end up) are at least as good as UK ones.

The guy's lawyers are acting like we're going to flog him and throw him in a dungeon or something.

Re:Not a death penalty case

[betterunixthanunix]

"The guy's lawyers are acting like we're going to flog him and throw him in a dungeon or something."

He gained unauthorized access to defense department computers in the months following the September 11 attacks, and he is not a US citizen. Where did we toss other people who pissed off the DoD? He has a semi-legitimate reason to be afraid.

Re:Not a death penalty case

[sunking2]

Guess he should have thought about that a little earlier. People are responsible for their own actions. What did he think would happen? Nobody's fault but his own that he didn't think things through well enough.

Re:Not a death penalty case

[sunking2]

Personally, I take the opposite view on this. DoD shouldn't have to. Typically the victim in a rape is not blamed, yet for some reason that logic doesn't apply here? This isn't even a case where you can claim the DoD deserved it by leading the guy on by wearing a skimpy outfit. These systems were just sitting there and he went out of his way to do harm. Not much else to say past that.

Re:Duh

[$RANDOMLUSER]

I think the sysadmins who set up a "secure military system" that could be breached by an amateur on the internet should be executed.

Re:Duh

[GauteL]

"Duh. The only reason this topic may recieve negative attention is because its the United States"

No, the reason is that the UK extradites its own citizens to a foreign country for crimes commited in the UK, when it can't be completely sure of its citizen being given a fair trial.

As it stands he is a foreigner in the US in a harsh political climate which makes it quite likely he could get convicted a terrorist even if he is just a "good old" computer criminal. At the very least he will feel forced to plea bargain for a very bad deal.

The extradition treaty is also completely one-sided, in that the US does not need to extradite its own citizens to the UK. The deal is shameful.

Re:Duh

[GauteL]

"Bullpuckey. The crimes were committed in the US, against US property."

Bollocks. He was sitting in Britain using his computer. Because of this Britain should have balls enough to tell the US to sod it and try him in his home country instead of shipping him overseas to a country where he has very limited rights as a non-citizen.

"Consequences"

[Nicolas MONNET]

So he was violating US laws, but he wasn't there.

Guess what, I'm routinely violating Saudi laws -- I tend to enjoy a glass of red wine with my pork chops. Should I be deported?

The problem here is that the Tony Blair government sold out their countrymen, AKA "subjects", to the Bush gang.

Re:"Consequences"

[gnick]

So he was violating US laws, but he wasn't there.

Guess what, I'm routinely violating Saudi laws -- I tend to enjoy a glass of red wine with my pork chops. Should I be deported?

No. But you're really twisting the details there. If you want a glass of red wine, have one. If you want to travel a little and smoke some reefer in a legal hash bar, smoke some. But, if you mail reefer to the US or ship wine to Saudi, prepare to face the consequences. Even though you're not in the country where you're breaking the law, your actions crossed the line. He may have been in the UK at the time, but he was breaking the law in the US. [For the record, laws banning alcohol/pot bug the hell out of me, but that's beside the point.]

Sure it was a trivial effort to breach those systems. Sure the damages are grossly inflated. But that doesn't imply a green light for somebody to sit in the UK and break laws all over the world hoping that they won't have to pay the piper.

Re:Crappy retarded cliché

[phillous]

This story has been in the British press for a few days, and I find the whole thing disgusting. As mentioned elsewhere, the $900k was the cost of securing these systems after this guys just walked in with default windows passwords... The stupid thing is that the whole case is based around this guys being a fucking terrorist... OH NOES SOMEONE DID SOMETHING TO WRONG AMERICA... They are a terrorist and should be locked away forever... if he wasn't from the UK they'd probably decide to bomb his fucking hometown as well.

Slippery Slope

[Ukab the Great]

In some foreign countries, using the Internet to say something less than flattering about their religious figures or their government is considered to be an Internet crime.

If the practice of extradition for Internet crimes is allowed to continue, what safeguards will there be in place stop citizens of free countries who practice free expression on their side of the ocean from being extradited to places where they'll get their heads cut off or be sent to gulags?

Re:Crappy retarded cliché

[moxley]

This from an organization that charges $50k for a bolt (or whatever ridiculous amount is was) and spports "cost plus" contracting.

Likely, they have quite lax security, saw this hack attempt as a opportunity to hire a friend of someone to "secure" their network and then got a bill for 900K (which likely consisted of a large kickback for one or several other people who selected the contractor).

Sorry - but that it how it seems to work in the US defense sector.