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Laptops With Certain NVidia Chips Failing
Eukariote writes "An estimated 18 million laptops with NVidia G84 and G86 graphics chips sold in the past one and a half years are experiencing high failure rates. Various laptop models from multiple manufacturers (Apple, Dell, HP, Lenovo, and others) are affected. NVidia blames it on bad chip packaging causing thermal failure. BIOS updates that turn the laptop fan on more frequently or permanently have been released by Dell and HP. The cynical interpretation is that this is likely to only delay the problem until the warranty has expired."
All Nvidia G84 and G86s are bad
The short story is that all the G84 and G86 parts are bad. Period. No exceptions. All of them, mobile and desktop, use the exact same ASIC, so expect them to go south in inordinate numbers as well. There are caveats however, and we will detail those in a bit.
Both of these ASICs have a rather terminal problem with unnamed substrate or bumping material, and it is heat related. If you ask Nvidia officially, you will get no reason why this happened, and no list of parts affected, we tried. Unofficially, they will blame everyone under the sun, and trash their suppliers in very colourful language.
When the process engineers pinged by the INQ picked themselves off the floor from laughing, they politely said that there is about zero chance that NV would change the assembly process or material set for a batch, much less an EOL part.
For dessert, there's this article to finish :)
Here are the Dell models which have BIOS updates, from TFA:
Inspiron 1420
Latitude D630
Latitude D630c
Dell Precision M2300
Vostro Notebook 1310
Vostro Notebook 1400
Vostro Notebook 1510
Vostro Notebook 1710
XPS M1330
XPS M1530
Sadly, it's not the laptops that are the problem. The problem apparently exists in all G84 and G86 chips, including those on desktop models.
This was reported by the inquirer (and here, i think) a few weeks ago, but apparently the news hasn't been getting around..
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
it is not logic board, it is motherboard. And yes, that is PC term. And yes, you got one.
Does this have anything to do with the Xbox 360's Red Ring of Death? [...]
Nvidia has been said to have had a hand in the design of some parts of the 360, and the problem sounds like it is identical.
Xbox 360 has ATI graphics. You must be thinking of the original Xbox, which did use NVIDIA graphics.
Are any desktop chips affected, or only laptop chips?
According to TFA both desktop and laptop chips are affected.
I've read a few stories about this too: http://seekingalpha.com/article/81647-microsoft-s-red-ring-riddle-resolved
Well, unless your replaced logic board fails again, I don't think Apple would take it back for replacement, since it basically works. Unfortunately, the affected GPUs are basically the entire nVidia 8x00 line (except for desktop 8300, and all the 8800's). Very few laptops actually use the 8800M GPU (think gaming laptops), so any other replacement, even a new laptop with an nVidia chipset will likely have the problematic GPU. The other alternative is to find a laptop with an AMD/ATi or Intel GPU.
For example, flip-chip technology uses a solder BGA to connect the silicon ship to a substrate. That substrate is then also usually connected to a motherboard through a solder BGA.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_chip
And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array
Sorry, I was distracted by the picture of the BREASTS on TFA page
No sig for you!!
I called HP and, after convincing the tech support guy that removing Vista and installing XP on the laptop did NOT cause the problem, sent it off for repairs in the middle of June. I was given a 2 week time period for it to be finished.
After a week and a half they sent me an e-mail saying that parts were on order and it might be another week. So July 8th was the new date.
After the 9th I called HP again and again was told parts were still on order. I was given a new date of July 22nd! I e-mailed HP's CEO and was contacted a few days later. HP said that they had been authorized to replace this series of laptop and asked me to fax in the specs from the broken one, which I did. About 2 weeks later a laptop was shipped to my old address (after having given HP the new one on 3 occasions: when I first called tech support, when I e-mailed the CEO, and when the case manager contacted me).
The laptop arrived and so far the only thing that doesn't work is DVD burning. Sure, it gets about 92% done, then dies. I've given up though and decided to just not buy HP products anymore.
To those who are having the problems mentioned for HP I strongly suggest sending an e-mail to Mark Hurd, the CEO. He doesn't write back personally obviously but someone contacted me just a day or two later.
It's just too bad HP has come to this (whether it's nVidia's fault or not is open to debate) but after an issue arises it is up to the manufacturer to take responsibility for their products. Man, I remember the days of HP meaning quality, the 2, 3, 4, and 5 series of laser printers were slow, sure, but they were steel and lasted forever. Now they sell these plastic pieces of crap that die after a year and, when contacted, all HP will do is give you $50 off of a new one. Wow, did Carly destroy HP or what?
"This food is problematic."
And do these problems, in turn, have something to do with RoHS certification, due to lead-free solders being less durable?
The motherboard is not RoHS compliant, and so presumably was built with lead-based solder. However it seems that most new machines are built with lead-free solders, all of which seem to have various problems.
That's quite a theory, except that the solder has nothing at all to do with a graphics chip overheating. It holds the components to the board and that's it. These chips are failing internally. If the problem were mechanical, lead-free solder is actually going to be more durable in high-temperature electronics because it has a higher melting point than lead solder.
Why is it all Nvidia's fault, seems to me it should be a shared responsibilty.
I work for a company big into mobile IC design (like NVIDIA). And I can say that it is very likely NVIDIA's fault because they (as do we), as the design company, specify every last detail of process, circuit, and package, when it comes to IC fabrication. Additionally, the company which produced these chips--TSMC--is the oldest, largest, and possibly most reliable dedicated fab company in existence. If there is a heat dissipation problem, it almost certainly stems from engineering oversight or management's corner-cutting on NVIDIA's part.
>> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
I don't know about the US, but in the EU, you are "entitled to have the goods brought into conformity free of charge by repair or replacement" even if they aren't broken as such (i.e. dead).
"break" is what happens when you drop a glass on concrete, or when you take 15 minutes to rest from working.
"brake" is a device used to slow a moving vehicle
It's not inside the chip. They've said it's in the die/packaging. You use solder to connect the die to the packaging, and then again solder the packaging to the board.
As long as it's working fine at the moment, there's not much you can do. If it fails repeatedly while under warranty (especially with the same problem), you're likely to be able to talk your way into a replacement computer.
Apple does have a decent history of creating repair extension programs when there's a known and particularly nasty design defect, especially when another company owns up to it being their fault. I imagine especially in those cases, they get the third party to pay for some or all of the repair costs. However, if you're really worried about it, you might consider getting AppleCare just to give yourself the three years of warranty. Of course, AppleCare, like any extended warranty, is a large profit center - but many people (myself included) decide it's better to pay a few hundred dollars upfront than to risk an expensive repair (or an even more expensive replacement) later. On the other hand, the flat-rate repair service (which I assume they still offer) isn't that much more expensive than AppleCare, so as long as you don't need more than one repair in the 2nd or 3rd year, you might be better off just risking it.
But just to be clear - I'd personally expect that many of the computers might get covered by a repair extension, which often last to 3 years beyond the date of purchase. But that doesn't help at all if your computer exhibits a symptom other than what is expected for the particular failure covered; if your CPU fails, for example, you'd be on your own without the warranty.
There is a problem with the chips, there is no doubt about that. However take anything Charlie says about it with a huge truckload of salt. There was a bit of bad blood between Nvidia and Charlie years ago (something like 4 or 5 now), and ever since they've refused to talk to anyone from the Inquirer and Charlie specifically.
It seems these days that all Charlie does is write long article bashing Nvidia. That is unless he's writing an article that's so over the top that his editor has to pull it (yes, believe it or not, there actually is an editor in charge of all those pieces).
Go read dell or HP forums and EE times. Read The Inq only if you want some amusement to see how amazingly slanted of a story can be produced.
The problems come down to the use of Child labour particularly in places such as South-east Asia being used to recover components but mostly metals from circuit boards. A lot of lead was being leached in the process directly into the water supply. A lead-acid battery returned to the right place results in very little lost material.
See my journal, I write things there
Only certain product codes are included. I have a DV2175ea, which has a product code outside the range they are extending the warranty for. Its NVidia video chip overheated in March (outside the normal 1 year warranty period, but well within the extended 2 year one).
What should/can I do?
Join the line?
(Seriously, you should put your details into the spreadsheet so we can collate what's happening and on which logic boards, etc. There's also some advice on talking Apple into letting you buy AppleCare after your warranty's expired)
This might apply to more than just cars. I had an issue with my old HP ZD7000 laptop while under warranty. When I contacted HP about it, they said they were working on a fix and to check back with them in about four months. As the laptop was still fairly usable, I waited.
After four months I called back and got the "oh yeah, there's a fix for that now, but sorry you're out of warranty." I had to get on their case about it, but once they tracked my old ticket # to the same issue the accepted the laptop for warranty service.
I'd suggest that if you have a problem that doesn't get fixed ASAP, write down the ticket # and details of the problem. Hell, even if it's "fixed" then it's a good idea to do so, that way you have evidence that the problem existed and was reported before the end of the warranty period.
"I'm sitting on a house" usually means that the speaker is literally on the roof of a house, ..."
Tex Avery had a nice interpretation regarding the terms "house", "on" and "roof", incorporating "drinks" as well (@3:30+).
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
"I'm sitting on (a subject you wouldn't normally sit on and which might be valuable or desirable)"
Usually refers to having something but NOT using it. Inferred is usually that you would like to do something with the subject, like sell it or invest with it.
"Do you know where I can get a laptop?"
"I'm sitting on a laptop."
"I want to gather some VC to start up a buisness."
"Well I'm sitting on a bunch of matured CDs"
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"