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Microsoft and Apache - What's the Angle?

A week ago, we discussed Microsoft's contribution to the Apache Foundation. Now, Bruce Perens has written an analysis "exploring the new relationship of Microsoft and the Apache project, how it works as an anti-Linux move on Microsoft's part, and what some of the Open Sourcers are going to do about having Microsoft as a rather untrustworthy partner." In particular, he notes: "...Microsoft can still influence how things go from here on. If they have to live with open source, the Apache project is Microsoft's preferred direction. Apache doesn't use the dreaded GPL and its enforced sharing of source-code. Instead, the Apache license is practically a no-strings gift, with a weak provision against patent lawsuits as its most relevant term. Microsoft can take Apache software and embrace and enhance, providing their own versions of the project's software with engineered incompatibility and no available source, just as they forced incompatibility into the Web by installing IE with every Windows upgrade."

16 of 433 comments (clear)

  1. Angle of teh dangle by ipX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apache.NET?

    1. Re:Angle of teh dangle by ponraul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly.

      The fact that you're developing .NET matters; the fact that you're using it on IIS doesn't.

      With Apache interoperability, you'd be able to run .NET internet applications and web services internet wide.

    2. Re:Angle of teh dangle by Fred_A · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Putting the obvious Microsoft fears aside, can we not give credit where credit is due?

      Microsoft have taken a huge step into open source here and they deserve to be nurtured and supported by a willing community so that we can all make the most of it.

      When your neighbour who has thrown rocks in all your windows, cut down your trees, slashed your tyres and poisoned your cat suddenly acts friendly and invites you to have dinner, what's your first move ?
      To show support and willingness or to go in your garage to decide which of the tyre iron or the baseball bat you're going to bring ?

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    3. Re:Angle of teh dangle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft did not loses their father in a car accident, so your analogy goes totally wrong here.

      They did not got a terrible setback, so your try to paint Microsoft as a poor sorry victim is totally beyond reality.

      Reality and long time experience leaned only one thing. Microsoft is capable of is crushing anything and everyone that has the nerves to pick more than 0,000005% of their market share. They will not rest before any initiative to break away from their stranglehold is stamped out and has resulted in a crater 5 miles wide. And when you decide not to resist to avoid above scenario, they wont fight you but embrace you so tightly your live will squeezed out of your poor body.

      You just cannot trust Microsoft. Any company or organization that did this one time does not longer exist or is seriously marginalized. Microsoft is a predator that feeds on anything they get their claws in. Their long list of victims proves it.

      Now suddenly we have to trust them? Seriously? Wow man - you are really out of touch with the real world hm?

  2. Relief by erikina · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So a week later, and the best sinister motive they can come up with is Microsoft doing something they could've done without contributing to the project..

    *breathe a sigh of relief*

    1. Re:Relief by dhavleak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you've seen the code Microsoft develops by themselves haven't you? Its not pretty.

      Err no. MS doesn't usually make their code publicly available. I wonder where you saw it..

  3. Re:What's the angle? by Tanman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Trying to appear relevant?

    I got news for you, but Microsoft is extremely relevant. Their relevance is what gives them the power to single-handedly break standards and have it supported by, not some, but the majority of web sites.

  4. what? by SirShmoopie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So let me see if I have this right.

    1: If they activelly avoid compatibility with open source, they're being evil.
    2: If they just ignore it, they're being evil.
    3: If they try to co-operate with any open source project, they're being evil.

    What, to be blunt, the fuck is going on?

    Ok, I'm not claiming closed source vendors are great or anything, but to my mind, this smacks of closed minded zealotry, and as we know, courtesy of the worlds religions, that generally doesn't work out well in the long term.

    Is the open source movements plan to vilify any and all attempts of the 'establishment' to work with us? Is that the plan?

    I freely acknowledge that Microsoft don't really have much in the way of compatible philosophy, but if all we do is bitch, all we'll get is negative publicity and bad feeling from people who, shock, horror, are actually entitled to think that open source isn't the source of all that is good in the world.

    I'm an open source developer myself, but obviously not a 'proper' one, because all I care about is sharing my code.

    1. Re:what? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, MySQL's license is cool. They get to follow the GPL, and make money from anyone who doesn't want to join the covenant of the GPL. I like that so much that I do it with my own software, too. Why not get paid for making GPL code?

  5. It's Cool by Bob9113 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft can take Apache software and embrace and enhance, providing their own versions of the project's software with engineered incompatibility and no available source, just as they forced incompatibility into the Web by installing IE with every Windows upgrade.

    Right on, that's cool. That's the purpose of the ASL. It is written such that commercial entities can extend it in unanticipated directions. That's what makes it different from GPL-like licenses, and it is totally OK. Some people (like myself) prefer to release under GPL-style licenses because we want to prevent commercial proprietary extension, and that's OK too.

    Also, Bruce's commentary is fine. He's using an active case-in-point to demonstrate a behavior that some may view as a downside associated with using a liberal license, and which will help new joiners to the Open Source community to make their personal choice.

    Or, in short, there's no need for yet another GPL versus BSD flamewar. We can all do what we like with our code, and that's good.

  6. It's pretty simple by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They're trying to take the oxygen from Linux by becoming the dominant server for Open Source applications. But if you're an Open Source developer, helping them displace an Open Source platform isn't such a great idea, is it?

  7. Re:Apache in Windows Server 2010? by aster_ken · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This will definitely not happen, and here is why.

    1. Microsoft has invested far too much time and far too many dollars into making Internet Information Services (IIS) what it is today.
    2. Independent Software Vendors (ISVs) have invested far too much time and far too many dollars into making modules for IIS. Several ISVs have built their entire business around providing these modules for cost.
    3. Many of Microsoft's own products, such as Exchange Server 2007, Office SharePoint Server 2007, Office Project Server 2007, and more, have been built around the IIS architecture. Changing to a different back-end server architecture would cost Microsoft financially.
    4. Usage of IIS has been increasing dramatically since March 2006. Usage of the Apache HTTP Server has declined significantly beginning in that same month. Netcraft provides these statistics here: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2008/06/22/june_2008_web_server_survey.html

  8. Re:Everything Microsoft does is evil... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful
    So if you make something available for everyone, you become the "unpaid employee" of anyone who improves it?

    Let's take an extreme example. The Java Model Railroad Interface developer used the Artistic license. A toy train throttle manufacturer called KAM used his software in their product, and sent him a bill for about twice his annual income because KAM claims a broad patent on any two computers communicating to control a toy train. The JMRI developer got pretty cruelly used in this case.

    It's not anyone who improves it who is a problem. But some folks, like KAM in this example, are really unsavory exploiters of the Open Source developer. Strong licensing (which doesn't mean the Artistic license, as the JMRI guy found out) is a good way to fight them.

  9. I like the GPL, but... by gillbates · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It does have its limitations. It's more of a share and share alike license than a path to public domain software.

    If I, as an open source author, want to give my code back to the community, with no strings attached, public domain is the only way to go. That way, anyone can use the code for any purpose they see fit. It is truly a gift.

    But GPL'ed code is not a gift, it is a license. It seeks to enforce - through copyright law - the notion of free software. That is, you can't take my free program and add in proprietary changes, and add restrictions to the use of the code.

    It's a good license. It does bring balance to the big picture.

    But it doesn't address one of the fundamental problems of open source: it's difficult to make a living writing open source code. Sure, you can make a living supporting open source code, but it is very difficult for the average programmer to make a living on what open source pays (usually nothing).

    Without the proprietary model, I would have to make a living doing something other than writing code. Which would mean, that because I would truly be an amateur programmer, my code would not be as good as it would otherwise. I'm able to make a meaningful contribution to open source code in part because I write code for a living.

    The consequence of being employed to write code is that I can't contribute code which would interfere with my employer's business interests. So while I'm able to use my general programming skills to benefit open source, I cannot produce open-source software in my area of expertise. Which, to me, is a real problem. But the GPL doesn't solve the ethical dilemna of an employee undermining his employer's business model. A large portion of us rely on the revenues generated by the pay-per-license proprietary model; without it, our customers would have to pay inordinately large sums of money up front for software, and we couldn't introduce new and innovative features because the budget wouldn't support it.

    I am a good programmer, and I do produce something of value when I write code. I have no problem with people sharing the code that I write, but we as a society need to understand that programmers need to be paid for their work. That is, if we are to have any reasonable expectation of software quality. Without the experience that comes from writing code professionally, the quality of software would be absolutely abysmal.

    And open source does have the proprietary model to thank for its quality - typically, the code written for open source projects is written the way a programmer knows it should be written, rather than taking shortcuts because of scheduling and marketing issues.

    I like open source, but I realize that I, and other programmers, need to be able to make a living writing code if we're going to contribute meaningful software to the world. Unfortunately, the GPL doesn't address this problem in an economically viable way. Even Stallman admits that in a free software world, programmers wouldn't make nothing, they'd simply make less. Problem is, I have a family to feed, and don't have the option of making any less money; if the whole world went open source, I'd have to go into management just to feed my family. I don't think it's very ethical to ask my children to starve so you can have your software free of charge.

    The GPL is good, and needed, but there needs to be a balance. I can contribute to free software because my employer's proprietary model allows me to make a living writing code.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:I like the GPL, but... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      GPL actually makes it easier to make Open Source software and be paid. It's called dual-licensing. Note that MySQL used it and just sold their 9-year-old company for $1.1 Billion. There are some things you have to be careful about to make this work, and it's a per-project decision rather than a per-contributor decision.

  10. Re:Everything Microsoft does is evil... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Yes, it would be a lot easier to live with Microsoft without the software patent situation, but also you have to acknowledge that Microsoft chose to use that ammunition and is still doing so.

    Stupidly bad software patents are there in the U.S. because of our friend IBM, who brought the lawsuit against the government forcing them to allow software to be patented in the 80's.

    Subsequent legislation to increase this trend worldwide has been pushed by Microsoft. I've been there to see this first-hand in discussions with European regulators.

    Even without the patent problem, there would be significant problems associated with their monopolistic behavior. Much of their rise was achieved without use of software patent aggression.

    Bruce