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RIAA Gets Nervous, Brings In Big Gun
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "I guess the RIAA is getting nervous about the ability of its 'national law firm' (in charge of bringing 'ex parte' motions, securing default judgments, and beating up grandmothers and children) to handle the oral argument scheduled to be heard on Monday, August 4th in Duluth, in Capitol v. Thomas. So, at the eleventh hour, it has brought in one of its 'Big Guns' from Washington, D.C., a lawyer who argues United States Supreme Court cases like MGM v. Grokster to handle the argument. This is the case where a $222,000 verdict was awarded for downloading 24 songs, but the judge ultimately realized that he had been misled by the RIAA in issuing his jury instructions, and indicated he's probably going to order a new trial. But, not to worry. A group of 10 copyright law professors from 10 different law schools and several other amici curiae (friends of the court) have filed briefs now, so it is highly unlikely the judge will allow himself to be misled again, no matter who the RIAA brings in as cannon fodder on Monday."
I think they're just bringing in the best hired gun that they can. No different from any other company or organization in that respect. This case is absolutely huge to them. Of course they're going to get the best counsel they can. Wouldn't they be foolish if they didn't?
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
They'd sue the hell out of McDonalds if McDonalds offered Starbucks coffee without a license.
Yeah, that Ray Beckerman, what a poser. *facepalm*
Mod parent down pls, kthx.
Ummm... Isn't that practically what McDonalds is doing with the new "McCafe" or whatever it is called? Sure it isn't the same recipe, but it could be argued that the torrents on the site because they are MP3s and not the original CDs, are different.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Sounds pretty epic! Do they allow people to take pop-corn into the court?
You just got troll'd!
And, this seems like a good stopping point. As of 1976 we had 2 26 year terms for a copyright, the act was amended that year and has been amended so many times since that whole treatises exist just to explain the changes in the law over a 32 year period.
What is particularly outrageous is the Sonny Bono extension - or, Save Mickey from the Public Domain Act. That crazy amendment brought material that was in the public domain back into copyright!
The great argument was that the authors would be more motivated to create with longer royalty periods - the only problem: I haven't heard any new creations from George and Ira Gershwin - the lazy bastards (ok, they're dead). The real reason to extend and extend these terms is to allow the corporate assignees to continue to profit. Disney was a strong backer because Mickey was about to become public domain - and that mouse is worth millions to its corporate masters.
The RIAA has been raking in the loot for 10-15 years now - and it is about time to put a stop to this kind of bs. I think that Monday will be the beginning of the end of the RIAA's tactics.
1. Using a crappy law firms
2. Using unlicensed PI's to supposedly download songs
3. Using a business model from 50 years ago in a post Y2K world
4. Not figuring out for years how to make money off of music the old fashioned way- by earning it through new ways of distribution, not by suing people.
5. By potentially generating so much case law that even the MPAA will have to give up as well
Well, I didn't know the phrase amicus curiae before, so I looked it up in Wikipedia and... I can't help it, it sounds a tad bit like "lobbying for courtrooms".
How do courts keep this from happening? Or do they, actually?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And if this was about people actually selling pirated DVDs, it'd be a different story.
This is closer to suing one person for over $10k per cup of coffee they stole.
I'm going to stick with that for the moment, as it's equally unfair to both sides -- stealing a cup of coffee actually deprives someone of potential revenue, whereas stealing a song is just a copy. But stealing a cup of coffee only feeds you (or your caffeine addiction) for a day -- you'll be back later, either to steal or to buy -- whereas stealing a song means you can listen to that same song again, as many times as you like.
But no matter how you want to spin it, stealing a cup of coffee does not carry a $10k fine. Stealing a song shouldn't, either.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Having good lawyers on both sides can really cut through a lot of the fluff and the misery in a case like this. Of course, if the lawyers deliberately want to exacerbate the problem and the judge isn't on the ball, they can make things worse. But otherwise, why would the RIAA not want the best lawyer it can get?
They've already had their expert "ambushed" with Daubert in the previous UMG vs. Lindor deposition that Ray Beckerman posted. This is 100% a rookie mistake. A competent firm would have briefed the expert and all related parties extensively on Daubert to ensure this doesn't happen. The downside for the opposition is that a better lawyer has a better chance of avoiding these rookie mistakes, so you have to actually argue facts rather than procedure.
Do all of you who rail against the RIAA really want them defeated because they hired crappy lawyers, or do you want them defeated on the merits? I fear that the answer from the Slashdot crowd at large is "either way, doesn't matter" but I think that's a little intellectually dishonest.
In P2P file sharing, copyright infringement is taking place. It is almost certainly NOT fair use. If you don't like it, you really need to be writing your members of Congress to change Copyright law. An issue like Capitol v. Thomas, where the issue seems to have shifted toward the magnitude of damages, is something that can be fought in the courts. And if it is to be fought in the courts, let it be fought on the essence of the issues and not on accidental factors such as the quality of the attorneys involved.
Actually stealing a CD doesn't get you into that, it's copying that does.
...and here is his unique game plan.
1) Ban reporters from courtroom
2) Turn off the lights
3) Win!!!
Let's face it, the penalties levelled were never going to stand up in court in the long run. They were never meant to. They're a threat designed to scare people into settling. If a few of the RIAA's actual court victories are overturned, so what? Their main revenue stream is out-of court. Until a judge puts down an injunction forbidding them from sending out threatening letters to the populace, they'll still have that.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
The first guy to cook a piece of cow loves the way you think.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Back before the Internet, copying a song from a record onto a cassette might deprive the RIAA member of a single sale. If that was what we were talking about, you would be correct.
This is not suing someone for downloading a song. This is about putting the song up for everyone on the Internet to download - potentially at least thousands or tens of thousands of people. So comparing it to stealing a single cup of coffee isn't quite correct. It is a lot closer to stealing hundreds of cups of coffee, maybe more.
The problem is, nobody knows how many people downloaded from Ms. Thomas. Nobody. Not even Ms. Thomas. Could be nobody. Could be the entire Internet-using population of the world. Nobody can find out. According to some, this means her liability should be ... nothing. I'm not sure that makes sense either.
This is not suing someone for downloading a song. This is about putting the song up for everyone on the Internet to download
I was going by TFS, which says, and I quote:
This is the case where a $222,000 verdict was awarded for downloading 24 songs
Furthermore, "making available" has, in fact, failed in court, at least once -- which means that they would have to show that he was actually distributing it.
The problem is, nobody knows how many people downloaded from Ms. Thomas. Nobody. Not even Ms. Thomas. Could be nobody. Could be the entire Internet-using population of the world. Nobody can find out.
Not strictly true. Depends what kind of logs the filesharing program kept, or her ISP.
According to some, this means her liability should be ... nothing.
I like to call it "innocent until proven guilty", but apparently, this doesn't apply to civil cases.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Analog 'copies' have long been considered copies, even thought they really aren't. Dancing around and pretending that you could possibly engineer an encoder that does what you state without ever referring to the original slutmix is just silly non-sense.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Technically, it's closer to getting fined $14,000 for drinking coffee you found in the McDonald's dumpster. The company wasn't going to get any money from you anyway, but you still managed a caffeine buzz and a thirst quenchings. Meanwhile, dumpster diving means that you won't have to be asked "Do you want fries with that?" but it's questionable as to the quality of food you'll get, or whether you'll end up with a virus once you've finished getting what you're looking for.
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
Their main revenue stream is out-of court.
Really? Is that true anymore? I haven't bought a single RIAA CD in 10 years and I don't think anyone I know has either.
My blog
When you take a file, it is binary. Be it the source code to Linux, the newest hit song, Internet Explorer or Mozilla Firefox. When you convert an audio file from CD format, to MP3, the bits change. Rather than the first few bits being 00101010001010, they might be 1101010001.
And when you throw in fair use, the same string of bits that might be used for 3 different things. Face it, our laws were meant for an analog world, when you use them in a digital context they just are plain stupid
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Actually... he's an incredibly respectable lawyer who is incredibly knowledgeable on the subject, and writes the entire story based off good, solid facts. His only fault is for using a good lead-in sentence to get you hooked.
I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
but it could be argued that the torrents on the site because they are MP3s and not the original CDs, are different.
No, it couldn't. Regardless of the format, be it MP3, CD, cassette, 8 track cartridge, vinyl LP or Edison phonograph, if the order of notes and chords, lyrics, style, and performance are the same, it's the same as far as copyright is concerned.
Or, to put it another way, if the listener can identify it as the same song, it's the same song. The actual order of 1s and 0s is irrelevant, because they're only a storage medium that has to be translated back to something you can hear. CD and MP3 differ only in the accuracy of reproduction; if encoding to MP3 changed the fundamental nature of the music it would be an utterly useless format.
Blank until
Sadly (or gladly) enough people do still buy CDs. I know if it is a band I like, that I do.
The problem is, if (assuming) CD sales are declining, it's just more ammo for the RIAA to push for more legislation to "combat" their flawed sales model.
One thing that always gets a laugh out of me are all the people who claim they refuse to buy RIAA member released CDs thinking that will somehow stop the RIAA - when the truth is, as evidenced by too many statements made by the RIAA, they blame every decline in CD sales on piracy and use it as a lobbying effort for more intrusive laws and less consumer rights.
It's not like their money will run out tomorrow... thus, not buying from RIAA labels because they are RIAA labels, only helps them to change the legal landscape in a fashion that hurts consumers even more.
In that, the Bush Administration has already chimed in (on this very case) trying to convince the judge to not do what he is currently doing and to uphold/allow the judgement that currently stands.
When it's a matter of money or business in this country (especially with so many lobbyists helping craft these laws) who do you think is going to win?
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Oh please. I challenge you to come up with a string of 1000 bits that has 3 different (meaningful!) meanings, let alone a string of 4 million bits, which is much more representative of mp3 compressed audio. If you manage to accomplish that, I challenge you to find 9 more.
(Note that there are [301 digit number starting with 1 that the lameness filter will not accept] different 1000 bit numbers...)
Copyright terms and so forth do not fit current technology, but the digital/analog divergence that you are arguing is the worst kind of logical contortion (the kind where you simply ignore inconvenient facts and information).
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
.
Money is strictly short-term, precedents affect the long-term.
The RIAA want precedents to be set such that they can continue to harass innocent people without regard for the consequences of their mistakes.
No, this is actually like buying the newspaper and then leaving it on a bench in the park, for (potential) people to read.
You don't get sued if you leave the newspaper now, do you?
Not all people that see the newspaper will read it (download but never play or not download at all).
One person may actually take the newspaper and throw it in the trash (download and delete right away).
Other person may take it from the bench simply because he spilled coffee on his copy and he wants a better newspaper (download for backup or improvement over original copy).
Also, just because the song is available for others to download, it doesn't mean the owner intended to have other steal it (in some cases).
Yes, all that and even if it wasn't, an MP3 would certainly be a derivative work of the CD.
Now we know they're almost done!
From video game experience, we all know that the boss brings out his most dangerous and powerful weapon right before you win.
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
Don't be an idiot. Copyright holds the concept of a derived work, and you cannot distribute a work that is derived from a copyrighted work without permission from the copyright holder. An encoded version of a music track is clearly derived from the original music track, and as such distributing it without permission is against the law.
Programmers tend to think that any law which can't be expressed in Perl (or Python or whatever) is too ambiguous to be useful. This is, however, not how things actually work.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
Just a pedantic correction to help make the task even harder. It's actually closer to 48 million bits for the "average 3.5 minute song". Almost no one uses 128kbit mp3s anymore with storage so cheap, 192kbit is more the norm. I just looked at an album here and average per track was over 70 million bits, but those were extended length remixes.
Use of "fixed that for you" shall be considered proof that the user is a complete tool.
There, fixed that for you.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
I like to call it "innocent until proven guilty", but apparently, this doesn't apply to civil cases.
Unlike criminal cases where guilt has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in civil cases it only require a preponderance of evidence or some such. That's why OJ won his criminal case but lost the civil case.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Remember to drink those in multiples of 8 as well. That should help your Slashdot experience.
The post you replied to was not saying their main revenue stream is selling CDs, it was saying their main revenue stream is getting people to settle out of court rather than going to court and possible having to pay more plus waste a bunch of time.
The republican party is prioritizing business interests over consumers any time the have a chance.
And the democrats are all cozy and in bed with the Hollywood elite.
Expect RIAA, Viacom, Hollywood and all other companiers with IP content to consistently get everything they want from Wahington. As a consumer, dont even try to get your hopes up. You will continue to get screwed.
Just as a reminder: After entertainment became a big business with lobbyists around 1920, *no* new copyrighted work have expired. Every 10 years or so, it has been extended by at least 10 years, and is now about two lifetimes.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
Strange, the copyright holders charge a different price for vinyl, 8 track, phonograph, MP3 or radio. I guess that is their right, but there is clearly a difference.
"There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
This is the case where a $222,000 verdict was awarded for downloading 24 songs
RTFA. RIAA downloaded 24 songs from her.
And they were authorized by the copyright holders to download them.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Why 1000 bits? I wasn't aware copyright has any restrictions on length. Why does it have to be "meaningful" in any human context? In the digital world, every single bit is "meaningful."
I hereby copyright "1110100100101000." In the music word, even a sample of a work is considered infringement so any file that has that binary sequence in it is infringing.
I can guarantee it appears in every single GIF image ever made.
Therefore, all GIF images - or at the very least all images created or copied after this moment - are violating my copyright. Pay me.
=Smidge=
Sorry, no. In order to qualify as a "derivative work" according to the accepted definition it must be significantly different from the original, but still contain recognisable elements.
Example: the theme for Men In Black is a derivative work because it used a portion of K.C & the Sunshine Band's "Forget Me Nots". An MP3 of "Forget Me Nots" is still "Forget Me Nots", it just sounds a little worse than an uncompressed PCM file.
Blank until
1000 bits because that's the number that the other fella spoke (it also happens to be hilariously small and enormously variable).
As far as why it has to be meaningful in a human context, the reason is because the digital world is a whole lot less relevant than various judges are, and they tend to be human and stubborn.
Also, "I hereby copyright" doesn't actually mean anything. I can say "I hereby copyright 'Smidge'" until I turn pink and grow roses out of my ears, but that doesn't actually have any impact on your ability to use the word.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Lawyers in these cases have argued that "making available is the same as distributing," that a single shared song is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and a great many things that are far more absurd than my statement. The law is an ass and the lawyers in these cases are abusing the ignorance of the courts and the rights of the people.
It's time to take back ownership of our network, our computers, our rights to fair use and our right to "progress of science and useful arts" by taking back ownership of the related symbols. All of them. Where the constitution reads "securing for limited times" the framers did not intend for it to extend to over 100 years. 3 years is more like it. I could go with 30 days, or none.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
they're just bringing in the best hired gun that they can
OK, so then why didn't they bring this guy in for the other parts of the trial?
Of course they're nervous.
In P2P file sharing, copyright infringement is taking place. It is almost certainly NOT fair use. If you don't like it, you really need to be writing your members of Congress to change Copyright law.
Going to congress isn't the only way to change laws. Probably the most important part of citizenship is on a jury and when on a jury the citizen has the most power. If a juror believes a law is wrong, and don't let any judge tell you otherwise, it's their duty to vote innocent and send the message the law is bad. This is called jury nullification. Thomas Jefferson, in support for jury nullification, once said (also on the wiki page) "I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution." I've been called up twice for jury duty though I was not picked to sit on a jury and I was hoping to be picked to sit on a drug trial, so I could say drugs laws are wrong, but now I'd love to be picked to sit on one for one of these trials.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I thought about that as I was walking out of a store last night, past a rack of CDs and DVDs for sale. If I were to swipe a DVD on my way past, and got caught, the consequences for shoplifting would be absolutely trivial, compared to getting caught downloading the same movie over the Internet, which takes longer, doesn't include the bonus features, and would probably require me to burn it to a DVD-R to free up space on my file server. And yet, stealing a DVD actually deprives the store of physical property that they paid for, while downloading via BitTorrent doesn't harm anyone.
How many people are going to switch from downloading to shoplifting because they're concerned about the possible repercussions?
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
I think we should all aspire to be someone who's only fault in a summary is using a good lead-in sentence. Thanks Ray!
I wish that were my only fault, but I have many others. Actually, I'm not even that good with lead-in sentences; I think I just got lucky on this one.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
I see what you mean. Your point has merit. He's not the usual type of cannon fodder.
But I did mean what I said. He's unintentional cannon fodder. They aren't bringing him in getting him wiped out; they're arrogant enough to think he might be able to get this judge to humiliate himself a second time. But I'm predicting the result will be the same, only exponentially more embarrassing than it would otherwise have been had they brought in the original cannon fodder, instead of the high powered replacement cannon fodder.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
We need to build a database of melody sequences which are in the public domain and use that to pry any modern melody that uses those sequences into the public domain.
The fact that a song contains elements from the public domain does not place that song in the public domain. It just means that the elements that were already in the public domain can be freely reused -- the rest of the copyrighted song is still copyrighted.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Isn't is a matter of perspective? The RIAA sees this guy as a "big gun", but the legal scholars' briefs may make him cannon fodder. The shades of meaning were clear to this reader.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
And they were authorized by the copyright holders to download them.
Unfortunately she wasn't authorised to upload them. All this means is that in this particular transaction the RIAA can't be sued for their part.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Would you care to explain how a song is worth $9,000+ to anyone?
For that matter, would you care to actually be man enough to state your name for the record? It's not like it requires you to not post as an AC...
One thing that always gets a laugh out of me are all the people who claim they refuse to buy RIAA member released CDs thinking that will somehow stop the RIAA
I don't buy RIAA CDs, but I do buy quite a few other CDs. If more people did the same, then the non-RIAA labels would be able to say 'our sales are up' whenever the RIAA says 'CD sales are down!'
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Indeed. Felony theft usually requires theft of something valued over 100 dollars, so theft of any CD or DVD would be misdemeanor theft.
Which almost never results in any jail time, and often has no fines beyond having to return or pay for what you took. Sometimes you'll get slapped with a $100 fine or so on top of that. (At least on the first offense.)
However, take a CD, rip it to your computer, put it on P2P, and not have anyone even download it, and suddenly it's $10,000.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
If you want to make sure you don't 'screw up your legal career', work very hard and be highly prepared for everything you do, and treat every case as the most important case in the world.
I didn't say this guy is going to 'screw up his career'; his career is going very nicely, and his RIAA client is dumb enough to keep on using his firm, which has accomplished exactly nothing. When the Big 4 record companies are in Chapter 11, then they'll probably change lawyers.
The reason this guy won't be enhancing his career, is that even were he to win, it would be meaningless:
-he is taking on a poor defenseless Native American woman who can't even afford to pay a lawyer
-in a lower court case that will not establish any binding precedent anywhere.
But what makes it worse is that he's going to be trying to push a completely frivolous theory, and trying to defend completely unethical conduct on the part of his predecessors, so that his own reputation will be besmirched by reason of his having even entered this fray. And what makes it even worse is that he's going to lose.
So bottom line, he's fighting against someone who can't fight back, he's doing the fighting in a way that will either be dishonorable (if he really tries to sell the judge on the RIAA's phony theory) or weak (if he admits the RIAA has no case), and he's going to get beat by a defenseless person. So that doesn't sound like a good thing to me.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful