Slashdot Mirror


Freespire Lives, Goes Back To Debian

nerdyH writes "Following Xandros's acquisition of Linspire, some feared for the future of Freespire, the free version of Linspire. However, Xandros today announced a new version of Freespire that will return the popular free Linux distro to its Debian-based roots."

34 of 104 comments (clear)

  1. Xandros and Linspire by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Neither of these are particularly great distros. Xandros signed an evil patent-deal, and neither distro jumps out at me with any real advantages to use them.

    Can someone please explain what these guys have to offer?

    I'd certainly like to see fewer distros. I sincerely believe we'd see higher quality if people focused their efforts to improving a few major distros rather than forking them every few seconds.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    1. Re:Xandros and Linspire by HeavensBlade23 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We wouldn't have Ubuntu if people followed that advice a few years ago.

    2. Re:Xandros and Linspire by teh+moges · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the problem is not 'too many distros', rather that not everything that runs on distroX runs on distroY. If a standard base could be setup that still allows for distros to be unique, but also allows for them to work together a lot better, then we will see an increase in applications made for linux, both open and closed source.

      As it stands, if you want to make something non-trivial that runs on a linux distro, you either need to pick your distro (at least decide between RHEL, Debian or another base), and just hope that it runs on the others.

    3. Re:Xandros and Linspire by Drantin · · Score: 4, Funny

      A "standard base"... I think you may be on to something there.

      --
      Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
    4. Re:Xandros and Linspire by bill_kress · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The only thing they really "Have" is the application store. It's the only place I know of that is like the app store on the iPhone (the first of that type I ever saw actually) where it combines free and commercial apps, has a single install/remove point, is trivial to use automatically adds it to your menus, ...

      The thing is, Ubuntu's is at least as good now, so I'm guessing that the only reason they have to stick around is so that some current users can avoid change.

      As I've been told when trying to update the family's apps: "Nobody likes change"

    5. Re:Xandros and Linspire by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Frankly, I don't think Ubuntu is all that great of a distro. I think Shuttleworth does a great job selling and marketing his product, and I give him props for that. He is doing a much better job than I convincing people to try Linux.

      My point still stands. The Ubuntu devs could have focused their efforts on Debian. Their distro today still is binary compatible with Debian. If they added their new features to the stock Debian, all Debian users benefit.

      The other point is that while a few people make major forks and make major new features, it seems we have tons and tons of distros with nothing really unique to offer. So why pull away all those package maintainers, devs, support people, etc. away from other distros?

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    6. Re:Xandros and Linspire by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well,as some who uses Xandros Business 4 on my laptop I can tell you why I use it,and that is because it works flawlessly for me when dealing with AD and Exchange,and was the only distro that worked with my evil Broadcom wireless. The built in Crossover Office was nice,as it allows me to have MS Office 2K for the occasionally funky formatted .doc or .ppt,and finally for me it just works. No CLI hoops,no "it works kinda sorta",it just all works perfectly for me out of the box. And the Xandros File Manager is nice and the layout of the UI is close enough to XP that when I'm out on a repair job and the boss asks me to lend one of his employees my laptop so they can work while I repair their machine I don't have to explain anything,they can just start to work. So those are the reasons why I use Xandros..

      And finally about the MSFT deal.Please remember that at the time there was no EU forcing MSFT to open up their server protocols and Xandros was trying to integrate Xandros Server with Scalix into a windows AD forest and have it work as either a member or a domain controller. So basically MSFT had their balls in a sling because without those server protocols they couldn't integrate. And the one thing that Xandros really does well is play nice with Windows networks,which is why I use it when I go out to work on SMBs. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    7. Re:Xandros and Linspire by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I started thinking about this a lot since the announcement of LSB (Linux Standard Base) 4.*. The idea that a distro could have core components in common to target sounds great. But tackle it from a different angle. Lets say I am using distro Y to develop an application targeted to work on LSB. The problem is now, I have to be VERY CONSCIOUS of what libs/bins I am using, and how. Just because it runs on distro Y that is LSB compliant doesn't mean that it will work on any LSB distro. Now everything I touch, and how I touch it, needs to be looked up, analyzed, and tested on however many LSB compliant distros, JUST TO MAKE SURE that I haven't tried to use something that isn't actually part of LSB.

      The only way I can see something like LSB working is to have a distro that is ONLY LSB... as in, nothing else. But seriously... does the spec even encompass a whole working OS?

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    8. Re:Xandros and Linspire by clang_jangle · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I still haven't u what we need Ubuntu for. We have Debian

      Oh, come on now. I prefer Debian myself, but I put my non-geek friends and family on Ubuntu. If I put them on Debian I'll have to explain so much crap their eyes will glaze over and they'll ask me to put Windows back on. It may be trivial to you and me when something goes wrong (an apt-get dist-upgrade breaks the menu system, or optical discs suddenly stop mounting automagically, or the wireless network card no longer shows up in the Gnetwork box), but to a non-geek any one of those things is a total deal killer. Ubuntu may just be Debian slowed down by a bit of idiot-proofing, but it's exactly that idiot-proofing that makes it usable for so many people. When those same people see my ion3 Debian desktop they're like, "WTF? Why don't you just use the easy one, like you gave me?". And of course I explain it's because a more CLI-centric install is easier for me.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    9. Re:Xandros and Linspire by BlackCreek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I still haven't u what we need Ubuntu for. We have Debian. Granted, not that trendy but it works.

      Except that

      • stable releases took 2 / 3 years to happen
      • that manners were often lacking at Debian mailing lists.
      • Debian didn't really strive to simply "work out of the box".

        On the topic of working out of the box:

        1. the installation process was NOT newbie friendly, and stopped short of setting many useful stuff by default (this was a long time ago but -- why couldn't it simply detect which device was handling the mouse?)
        2. everyone (with experience) knew that the boot time would get much faster by using ash/dash, but that never became a default...
        3. the mentality when reaching a difficult point was often to let it, in the name of security, unconfigured by default (user belonging to audio groups -- but how many users would actually solve that right? (Mandrake had gotten that right *years* before...))
        4. did you ever read that scary 'charset for the "less" pager' configuration question during installation? I had years as a SysAdmin when I faced that for the first time, and had no clue of what exactly was being asked. For a novice, it would be the confirmation of everything they feared about Linux.
        5. often the cause of the lack of a setting was not even

      They often avoided a difficult (political or technical) decision and left it to the user. Who was supposed to "know better what to do", or to read and study in order to take any decision. Increasing the dedication necessary to run the system.

      In short, Debian //never// went own to produce a system for someone who wasn't, at least, a hobbyist UNIX sysadmin.

      Sure, many of these points are probably much better now, but this was surely the context that made Ubuntu a welcomed offering.

      The greatest plague of modern computing is complexity. Debian tackles a whole world of it through its dependency work, testing, and dpkg/APT. But they still (leave?) left way too much unnecessary complexity into the system.

    10. Re:Xandros and Linspire by jlarocco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they added their new features to the stock Debian, all Debian users benefit.

      As far as I can tell, Ubuntu is nothing but a dumbed down version of Debian. If they had hijacked Debian I would have switch to something else. Some of us don't want to be treated like idiots by our computer.

      The other point is that while a few people make major forks and make major new features, it seems we have tons and tons of distros with nothing really unique to offer. So why pull away all those package maintainers, devs, support people, etc. away from other distros?

      The entire point of "Free Software" is that anybody with an itch to scratch can grab a copy of the code and make their own version. That's the benefit over proprietary software. If you take that away, what's the point?

      The people working on obscure distros are working on those distros because they want to. If you told them, "Your needs and interests aren't important, get working on Ubuntu," they would probably laugh at you.

    11. Re:Xandros and Linspire by J053 · · Score: 2, Informative

      sudo su

      sudo -i

    12. Re:Xandros and Linspire by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm just going to respond to you, though it seems several people were suggesting the same thing.

      Ubuntu is a bad example largely because their fork features major changes. Mint basically just includes codecs. PCLinuxOS was originally largely just changing the defaults of the desktop. Then are hundreds of active distros, many of which offer minor changes at best, yet pull away tons of developer time to maintain different repos and such.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    13. Re:Xandros and Linspire by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Portage allows you to install commercial software like crossover-office. You still need a license, but portage will pull in the installer through the standard install process, and keep track that it is installed for dependency purposes.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    14. Re:Xandros and Linspire by tinkertim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My point still stands. The Ubuntu devs could have focused their efforts on Debian. Their distro today still is binary compatible with Debian.

      Actually, they have focused their attention on Debian. You would have to examine Ubuntu and Debian source packages to really see just how much effort Ubuntu is putting into Debian.

      In every distro there is a list of stuff that nobody wants to do. For instance, getting 'bashisms' out of init and other shell scripts so that a fully POSIX compatible shell (such as dash) can parse them correctly. Ubuntu tackled a lot of that list.

      If you look at the Ubuntu source packages, you will see a ton of patches in debian/ , Ubuntu has structured their patches so that Debian can cherry pick from their improvements easily. Debian has and will continue to do this. For instance, if Debian just wants the patch that takes bashisms out of a given script, they can just take that and leave the rest.

      Similarly, Debian security updates and other things are easily cherry picked by Ubuntu. Managing patches like this is very time consuming, Ubuntu could have said 'screw that' but they didn't.

      Its a rather interesting symbiosis. While the projects are going in separate directions, devs from both camps continue to ensure that improvements remain isolated and rather portable.

      My desktop is a mix of Ubuntu and Debian packages, for instance. Most things I use begin with Debian source packages, then I grab the Ubuntu source packages and get the patches that I want ... then make my own thing. Granted, this isn't typical use but it illustrates the benefits of a larger cooperative effort.

    15. Re:Xandros and Linspire by jlarocco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ubuntu is a bad example largely because their fork features major changes. Mint basically just includes codecs. PCLinuxOS was originally largely just changing the defaults of the desktop. Then are hundreds of active distros, many of which offer minor changes at best, yet pull away tons of developer time to maintain different repos and such.

      But there's nothing to pull away from. There's isn't a fixed pool of developers working on open source projects. By and large most new distros are created by people who have no interest in helping out with another distro or by people who's ideas had been rejected by other distros. If they weren't maintaining their own distro they wouldn't go get involved with a different project, they'd just stay uninvolved.

    16. Re:Xandros and Linspire by A.K.A_Magnet · · Score: 2

      He didn't mean dash was made by the Ubuntu team, he said that some shell scripts used non-POSIX compliant bash extensions, and that some Ubuntu devs did rewrite bash specific parts into POSIX counterparts to have those scripts work with POSIX shells, including dash, which benefits to everyone but that no one wanted to.

    17. Re:Xandros and Linspire by EvilNTUser · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why should Debian be like Ubuntu? New users could perfectly well use Suse, Mandrake or Red Hat before shit brown became fashionable.

      While I don't actively dislike Ubuntu, I'm not a big fan because it feels like they equate usability with condescension. Many people, not limited to them, seem to think that it's impossible to create something that's both easy and powerful. I don't agree.

      On the other hand, this argument also justifies its existence. The people who don't agree with me get to use what they prefer. Mostly I'm worried that a lot of new users with the potential to understand more won't realize that there are other options, since it gets so much publicity.

      --
      My Sig: SEGV
    18. Re:Xandros and Linspire by fwarren · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it is fair to say, that Debian has their own way of doing things. What if you want to be able to include video codecs? Include the Adobe flash player? Binary video drivers? Nope, those things are not the Debian way.

      What if you want to run software that is newer than 2 or 3 years old? Well you could go run Debian unstable, but if one of the packages gets broke, you have to wait for someone to fix it or figure it out yourself.

      There are plenty of reasons why someone would want something almost Debian but not quite. If you yell loud enough in the support forms they will tell you to piss up a rope, that is not the way they do things.

      What Mark Shuttleworth has done is made a Debian derivative that is essentially a binary compatible fork. It is built on top of Debian in such a manner that things can be contributed back. The way they roll is different from Debian. No need to wait 3 years for Network Manager to get put in Debian. They just put it right in without the debate, without being told they cant do that. They invested in setting up forums and running them where novices asking stupid questions can get help. Where people are not crucified for asking how come the distro does not do this and that.

      --
      vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
  2. Popular? by Zaurus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just how popular is it? I've personally used and seen a lot of people use a lot of distros (over a dozen), but I've never used or seen anyone use Linspire or Freespire.

    1. Re:Popular? by dedazo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There's a small company in Chile that sells custom-built boxes with it installed, and they sell quite a lot of them to lower-middle income families in the capital.

      Don't ask me why they picked it, I have no idea. Having seen one of these systems up close, they're really crappy (hardware-wise), but I guess they work well enough. They also provide tech support for a nominal fee.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    2. Re:Popular? by H0p313ss · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a small company in Chile that sells custom-built boxes with it installed, and they sell quite a lot of them to lower-middle income families in the capital.

      This must be some strange new meaning of the word "popular" that I was not previously aware of.

      Do they also have a "Beware of the Leopard" sign on the basement stairs?

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
  3. Everyone in unison now.. by Anrego · · Score: 4, Funny

    WHO CARES!

    My first troll :) .. but seriously.. meh

    Evil distro 1 acquires lame distro 2 and proceeds to make it more like evil distro 3 (which it is based upon itself)

  4. Press Release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    We, Open Blue Enterprises Inc., the makers of Blue Cat Enterprise Linux (recently merged with "Advanced Carrier Grade Enterprise Linux Business Solutions") announce that our next release will be based on Debian Lenny.

    Debian will provide a robust base for our leading Linux enterprise distribution and allow us to concentrate on what we know best: wallpapers with cats providing a unique desktop experience.

  5. Underground distro by gmuslera · · Score: 5, Funny

    It was going to the grave, but changed direction. Now they are going to their roots.

  6. Up out of the basement and into the den by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Can someone please explain what these guys have to offer?
    ,

    The OEM Linspire PC has at least a minimal presence in big box retail.

    It is close on to thirty years since the OEM system install became standard in the home market.

    Linspire pioneered the "Click-N'Run" repository of free and non-free software for the user who will never give a damn about the ideology of free and open source.

    What Linspire gave them was the comfort level of Download.com. Screen shots. Product reviews - from outside the geek community - reviews that could be etched in acid.

  7. Chile by westlake · · Score: 2, Informative
    This must be some strange new meaning of the word "popular" that I was not previously aware of.
    .

    Chile has a population of 17 million and a per capita income of $14,000 a year. Chile

    In 2006 Chile had 1 million broadband users - not bad for a country that didn't have DSL or cable Internet service before the year 2000.

    The "e-business" potential of the country looks quite good.A Wired Country

    1. Re:Chile by dedazo · · Score: 2, Informative

      One of the things to remember about countries like Chile (and Argentina, Venezuela, Mexico, etc) is that there's a HUGE divide between the upper and lower middle class, in the sense that there's no true middle class like there is in the US, Canada or Germany. They also tend to suffer from unregulated state-owned monopolies that have subtle effects on the spread of technology. For example, in the 90s getting on the Internet in Mexico was extremely expensive because of a stupid charge-per-call rule the state telephony company had. If your modem was dropping connections, you were in for pain at the end of the month when the bill arrived. I remember having to call home and ask my dad for more money just to pay the damn phone bill.

      All this has the effect of putting the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder at a disadvantage. So the availability of cheap hardware running cheap software is important, because it offsets costs like electricity and broadband. There are retailers in Santiago, Caracas and Buenos Aires that will sell you essentially the same machines Dell or Gateway sell in the US. Trust me, those are not contributing to the tech revolution down there. It's the little mom and pop shops that sell crappy boxes with Linux (or pirated Windows...) that are doing that.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
  8. Re:moo cows by Gavagai80 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The GPL says nothing about what applications you can include on CD you sell. An expensive linux distro can ship with crossover and Microsoft Office if it wants to.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank
  9. Why did Linspire's CNR fail? by ricegf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm honestly not sure why CNR hasn't done better (which is to say, generate any noticeable use). It's free-as-in-beer, supports several major distros in a central location, offers social features such as reviews and ratings, allows grouping of apps into "aisles" for easy one-click installation and sharing, handles commercial software sales as well as free software installation compatibly and rather efficiently, and generally provides a rather nice experience.

    Why has it wilted like a Friendster? Because it's not free-as-in-speech? Is Applications -> Add / Remove or Synaptic simply "good enough"? Do enough Linux users really object to their Microsoft deal and abstain on moral grounds?

    Of course, I don't use it personally. And I'm not sure why. Would a FOSS version by a more credible member of the community generate more interest and enjoy some success?

  10. Re:Why doesn't Debian adopt Ubuntu? by sweet_petunias_full_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem with that theory, is that it presumes that the Debian devs would be willing or want to take Debian in the direction Ubuntu went.

    Specifically, starting a bunch of unnecessary modules at boot just in case you may have that hardware may be OK for a system that "just works" but some of us prefer to optimize for faster bootup time and the reliability that comes from running fewer unknowns in kernel space.

    (I'm not saying that Debian necessarily boots faster, as it will let you add all manner of services if you tell it to install the kitchen sink, but, well, you get the picture...)

    --
    You can't send a takedown notice to an already printed newspaper.
  11. Re:Hey Fucktard by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 3, Funny

    Lighten up, Francis.

  12. Re:libdvdcss by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is actually untrue. The DMCA states it's illegal to make, possess, or import something that circumvents an access control mechanism or a copy control mechanism. It does not tie the prohibition to copying.

    There are no distros of any visibility in the US that bundle libdvdcss that haven't been licensed in some way. It is probably that the DVD CCA would take a pragmatic view and not sue at this point, largely because it's easy for an end user to circumvent the ban anyway and because while its damaging to other manufacturers of DVD players that they have to pay CSS license fees when unauthorized distributors of libdvdcss do not, it certainly isn't damaging to Hollywood that people be able to play DVDs on GNU/Linux based computers, and at this stage the law of diminishing returns would apply when trying to push a lawsuit. But I certainly wouldn't gamble a business's livelihood on the DVD CCA's likely liberalism.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  13. Re:Why doesn't Debian adopt Ubuntu? by sweet_petunias_full_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If I'm sure I won't ever be needing a specific service and I disable it manually, I'm not exactly worried that it won't get upgraded, I'm probably just trying it temporarily and will soon get by to uninstalling it. But if I were worried about that and I disabled it due to a false dependency, then I would restore things to the way the installer left it, and then upgrade as normal.

    There are various ways to do that. The quickest way is probably to keep a separate directory for initscripts you don't want, and move the junk to there. During an upgrade, you can move them all back (maybe keep a list), do the upgrade, and then promptly put them back in their holding area. It's a terrible hack - but it's easy and quick regardless of whether its debian or something else. Another way is to check the scripts into a source code revision system, edit them to comment out the start section and then backtrack the changes during an upgrade. Yet another way is to write a shell script that creates a K link for each S link for each init level and removes the S links, with a mirror script that does the reverse. I may be overlooking an even simpler way of doing this with unionfs, but I don't think of it as anything more than a convenient hack which isn't going to cause any problems I can't fix.

    If all of the above sounds like much ado about nothing because it only represents a tiny fraction of system resources, you may understand my motivation a bit better by opening a command terminal in Ubuntu, sudo bash, then lsmod. If the last time you did this was before ACPI was fully implemented, this will open your eyes because that list used to fit on one screen. After ACPI and bluetooth, that list grew by leaps and bounds, and I see drivers loaded in memory for hardware I *know* I don't have... I also won't accept the fact that you can't simply rmmod ipv6 if you know you're not using it. Once you load that module it sinks its teeth into the kernel like some sort of memory leech and won't come out. [Insert some George Carlin-like expletives here]! Unused code sitting in memory is a problem waiting to happen, and the larger it is the bigger the potential security hole.

    Each running service is also a potential problem. Don't use the "at" daemon? Nix it. Don't use NFS? Maybe you can do without RPC... Don't use samba? No need for samba daemon either. The dictionary program wants to run a server by default... *rolls eyes*. Some game wants its own sound server to start before anything else. Gone. A desktop system wants to start a sound server each time it utters a sound.... There's all this stuff that wants to be running all of the time that could just have been linked to a library or something. So, excuse me if I sometimes use a hack to route the trash elsewhere...

    Now, if we are to keep Linux viable for running on embedded stuff like digital cameras and the like, it's going to have to become more systematic to get rid of this sort of excess. Maybe someday this sort of optimization will get easier. Case in point: Did you know that it's technically possible to boot Linux from flash in as little as .5 seconds? On a 200Mhz arm processor?

    If someday my Linux systems boot in a sweet fraction of a second, I figure it will be because debian or something similar will be installed, not Ubuntu, and certainly not some hardware-treadmilled adware-laden commercial product. Ubuntu just doesn't seem headed in that philosophical direction, and if modules are going to be resisting their removal by the superuser then that's not a good omen for the way things could become. I mean, if a software monopoly wants to bloat its OS to the point of nonfunctionality then by all means, but they should keep the brain damage to themselves and not require all Linux users to standardize on the same philosophy just to keep hardware companies happy.

    --
    You can't send a takedown notice to an already printed newspaper.