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A Hidden Loop In the Carbon Cycle Discovered

Googlesaysmysiteisdangerousanditisn't! writes "A recent article in Science says that researchers in China and the US have found massive carbon uptake in the world's deserts. The effects of this are huge. 35% of the Earth's land surface is desert, and the uptake equates to 5.2 billion tons of carbon sequestered each year. This is more than half of the carbon released by humans. In these 'dry oceans,' the grains of sand allow the carbon dioxide to enter and react with alkaline soil to become carbonates. Another scientist suspects that biotic desert crusts, alkaline soils, and increased precipitation may be driving the uptake."

13 of 310 comments (clear)

  1. At what point does ythis break down? by Dripdry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok. So they've found a massive carbon sink that was unaccounted for. Great!

    They also say that due to changing conditions, including increased precipitation, there is more uptake occurring.

    Does this process ever reach a point where it stops? Is there only so much carbon that can be converted/sequestered? If conditions change enough, will this huge carbon sink disappear rapidly, adding a HUGE amount of carbon to the atmosphere?

    This is fascinating, but it still feels to me like this situation could be as fragile as any others we've discovered around the globe.

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    1. Re:At what point does ythis break down? by cunamara · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why are you wasting your time with this lame argument? There is no human field of study that has comprehensive knowledge about its subject. Acknowledging that fact does not excuse people from taking whatever steps are available to them to reduce, stop or reverse damaging the only environment they have in which to live. If you wait for conclusive knowledge before acting, you'll never get out of bed.

    2. Re:At what point does ythis break down? by mmurphy000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Until we know *MUCH* more about global climate control knee jerk reactions should be kept to a minimum.

      Depending on how you define "knee jerk", I disagree.

      Reducing overall usage of oil is a good thing for many reasons outside of the potential environmental benefits, including:

      • Reducing the world's dependency on a non-renewable resource that, depending on who you ask, may be running out (or at least getting increasingly difficult to extract in the desired quantities for reasonable costs)
      • Reducing the world's dependency on a resource that, in many cases, lies in areas with political turmoil (e.g., Middle East)
      • For the countries that establish relative expertise, serving as a source of innovation-based new jobs

      So, if it's "knee jerk" for the US to ratchet up CAFE requirements (and the equivalents for trucks and trains) so we become best-in-breed at fuel efficient transportation, or for the US to increase investing in alternative energy sources, then I'm all for "knee jerk" reactions.

    3. Re:At what point does ythis break down? by pallmall1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Acknowledging that fact does not excuse people from taking whatever steps are available to them to reduce, stop or reverse damaging the only environment they have in which to live.

      Well, that's really the problem, isn't it? Knowing what steps to take. Solutions implemented based upon incomplete and politically motivated science may actually make a "problem" worse.

      --
      3 things about computers: they're alive, they're self-aware, and they hate your guts.
    4. Re:At what point does ythis break down? by YttriumOxide · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (a) that there have been times in the past with wayyy higher CO2 concentrations and

      Yes, and it would have been pretty unpleasant for human beings had we been around at the time.

      (b) that historically CO2 raises happen *after* temperature raises and

      Yep, which just goes to show that if CO2 also causes temperature rises (pretty fairly conclusive that it does), that we'll end up in a rather painful positive feedback loop (CO2 goes up, causing temperature to go up, which causes CO2 to go up more)

      (c) some of the measured temperature rise (of course, you are suitably sceptical about those measurements as well, aren't you?) can be explained by the fact we're coming out of an ice age and

      I think that's pretty well accepted also, but historically there's nothing similar to what's happening now - we're rising MUCH faster than we should be.

      (d) the fact that the Earth is neither a boiling Hellhole nor a ball of ice suggests that fairly effective negative feedback is at work in the climate?

      No, that suggests that the Earth is (surprise surprise) a pretty good place for people to live in general. The concern is that it may not stay that way.

      The concern is not that temperature is rising - that happens. It rises, it falls - there are perfectly normal cycles to all of this, and as long as we can learn to understand it, we can learn to live with it. What the concern IS is that we appear to be having an effect on our climate and we don't understand enough about what we're doing to it. It currently appears as if our effect is speeding up the "natural" warming quite significantly, and we're having a very hard time trying to figure out what the consequences of this will be. Maybe our effects will be nullified by natural processes and we can just carry on, but maybe they won't be and we'll end up killing ourselves (or just making life extremely unpleasant).

      Because we're sitting here at "don't know", we have the choice of either ignoring the situation or trying to do something about it. I UNDERSTAND the arguments for both, but I don't agree with the argument for doing nothing.

      The argument for doing nothing basically says, "well, we don't understand it, and doing something could cause economic problems. Because we don't understand it, we can't necessarily do anything about it.".

      The argument for doing something goes, "We don't understand it, but we are certain that we are having an impact of some kind, and that has the potential to be very bad (it also has the potential to not be bad, but we're pretty sure it will be bad, and we don't want to take the gamble). So, what we'll do is try to reduce the factors that cause our effect."

      We may not completely understand our climate, but:
      1) We CAN see we're having an influence on it
      2) We aren't 100% certain, but are pretty sure that our influence on it will cause long term bad effects
      3) We are quite confident we know the cause of our effect on the climate (CO2 amongst many other things)

      Because of this, the sensible choice seems to be "let's try to reduce or negate the effect we're having on the environment, because we can't be sure if that effect is going to cause us serious problems or not".

      Car analogy time: I know very little about cars, and have to rely on what others tell me. I'm driving my car, and the oil light comes on. I recently changed the oil, and I haven't noticed any leaks, although honestly I wasn't paying much attention before now. My passenger suggests that maybe it's just that a circuit going to the oil light indicator is shorted somewhere, which is why it's showing that, and I really needn't worry - my car will be fine. Now, I can not be certain if he's right or wrong without investigation. So, I take my car to a mechanic, who checks only the circuitry going to the light. He says it's okay. At this point, I can choose to continue driving my car, thinking the mechanic missed something and it really is just a problem with the light, or I can ask the mechanic to check the oil system, even though I know there's going to be a larger financial cost involved in doing so. What should I do?

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    5. Re:At what point does ythis break down? by legoman666 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Sheep. You're looking at 15 years of data to make conclusions about a 4,500,000,000 year old system.

      Do you part for global warming, become a pirate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FSM_Pirates.png

    6. Re:At what point does ythis break down? by Ambitwistor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hansen's data set is skewed to support his theories.

      Prove it.

      Notice how it doesn't seem to agree with the other temperature records out there.

      All of the temperature records disagree with each other to a small extent. The GISTEMP record is not wildly out of line with any of the others, and some of them show slightly more warming than GISTEMP. See here for a comparison of the surface records.

      Thats because Hansen has built into his system factors for changing the raw data based on his conclusions.

      Again, prove it. Hansen has factors to correct for systematic biases in the instrumental observations. ALL the temperature records do (both surface and satellite), although they use different methods to make the corrections. That is quite different from corrections which change the data "based on Hansen's conclusions", which is an accusation of intention and fraud and requires proof.

      Try using one of the satellite records where the data hasn't been fiddled with and you get a trend that is very different from what Hansen is predicting,

      Actually, you don't. The trends are slightly different, but all within each other's error bars. Here is a visual comparison.

      Furthermore, the satellite data is "fiddled with" as well. Indeed, the UAH data famously showed recent cooling before they discovered there was a mistake in their error-correction algorithms. Satellite records are by no means objectively superior to the surface station data.

      I have no idea where that quote above came from about "Hansen's latest graph", but GISTEMP looks very similar to the other data sets even in the last 10 years; see the above graph.

      If the difference between Hansen's numbers and three other temperature records isn't enough to convince you something is screwy with his data then check out all the issues with his temperature stations

      If you throw out the temperature stations Watts classifies as "bad", you still get results that are quite close to the GISTEMP record. Or if you throw out the urban stations and only include the rural ones. And finally GISTEMP is quite similar to the satellite records.

      There may be station siting issues, but they're clearly not dominating the trend visible in the global temperature time series.

  2. Re:PDF by MyLongNickName · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is called the status bar. It shows you what a link is pointing to.

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  3. Something is not quite right here... by BlueParrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this is indeed the case it would seem a bit strange that it has not been detected before. I mean with all the climate change debate going on there has been quite close scrutiny of the estimates of CO2 going into and out of the atmosphere, so if this is as big a carbon sink as described it would have to mean that the other sinks ( i.e the ocean and the biosphere ) are less potent than previously assumed.

  4. Re:Not just a joke by Max+Threshold · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Trees are still much better CO2 scrubbers than other plants. Rush Limbaugh is fond of pointing out how much CO2 is absorbed by suburban lawns, but most of it goes back into the atmosphere when the lawn is cut. By contrast, most of the carbon sequestered by trees is not in the leaves, but in the woody parts. And it remains sequestered for hundreds of years, or longer depending on what happens to the tree when it dies.

  5. People want something to save you from by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, I'm getting the idea that for some people the goal isn't even to point fingers at something, but to point fingers at someone. Subtle but important difference.

    Actually, even that is the superficial version. The longer one is that a bunch of people need not just to feel superior to you all, but to be a part of some grand cause that's never done or achievable. The last part is the more important one. It's what makes such grandiose tactually an _easy_ way out.

    The quote which comes to mind, and kinda sums it all up, is, "It is easier to be a "humanitarian" than to render your own country its proper due; it is easier to be a "patriot" than to make your community a better place to live in; it is easier to be a "civic leader" than to treat your own family with loving understanding; for the smaller the focus of attention, the harder the task."

    So people seek some grandiose cause to fight for, so they don't have to acknowledge that they don't achieve the small ones.

    And again, it better be something so grand that nobody actually expects any given individual to achieve anything tangible. In a "small" task, like, say, "I want to finally get out of debt", or "I'll take some lessons and try to find a better job", or "I'll finally have a talk to my son about starting fights at school", there are very clear criteria as to whether you achieved anything or not. And at some point you have to admit that you didn't. It's not a very motivating thought. Worse yet, it might involve some personal effort and change. Good grief.

    On the other hand, "saving the world" (from whatever global threat, from MS to global warming to God's wrath) is _easy_. It's a task nobody really expects you to achieve. So you can just moan and bitch a little about how the _other_ people should change, then be smug that you did your part. If it didn't achieve anything, it's because everyone _else_ didn't immediately drop everything and do as you said. Or even if they did, and it didn't actually work, hey, it's still their fault not yours: they didn't do enough, or didn't really understand you.

    Big surprise that people choose the latter, eh? They're easy.

    And it's not even something new. Since the dawn of time people have got into such grandiose fights to save others from whatever. For a long time, mostly from worshiping the wrong gods, or from worshiping them all wrong, or from some moral/philosophical detail that will doom us all. Mostly because they didn't have some scientific doomsday scenario, so God's Wrath was the best threat they had. Now they can do better.

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    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  6. Re:Not just a joke by meringuoid · · Score: 4, Insightful
    When the leaves rot they give off CO2 and methane. Methane is far worse as a green house gas than CO2 - by a factor of over 20.

    True, but CH4 + 3O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O, which won't take long in an oxygen-rich atmosphere, and just gives us carbon dioxide back; the same carbon dioxide that was absorbed when the leaves grew in the springtime. Meanwhile the tree on the ground has grown over the course of the year, and locked up a bit more carbon in the form of wood.

    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  7. it's you who is advocating massive change by speedtux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The real problem isn't nature, and to your point, the real solution isn't changing anything, it's dedicated research.

    But we are changing something: we are emitting CO2 into the atmosphere, and our emissions are growing exponentially. That can't go on: either we stop voluntarily, or we run out of fossil fuel, or we get a climate catastrophe; there simply is no third possibility.

    When you are saying that we shouldn't "change anything", you are actually advocating continuing a massive global change, a massive experiment with global climate. People like you are playing word games: you simply redefine what amounts to deliberate and massive change as "no change" by reframing the issue.