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The Effects of Exporting Used PCs To Africa

retroworks writes "According to this UK MailOnline story, computers donated to Africa are causing quite a few problems. The BBC does a similar story on the junk computers from rich countries found on the ground in Africa. But all of the footage is of the junk PCs; there is no film of any repaired or good computers. There have been a dozen stories now about the bad apples. It seems like there have to be good ones, too, to cover the costs of shipping. Some of the ones in the Mail story actually look decent. Is there more balanced coverage of used computer exports, many of which provide affordable technology to poor people? Organizations like Greenpeace and Basel Action Network are promoting electronics recyclers with zero-export policies. One organization, the World Reuse Repair and Recycling Association, is promoting a 'Fair Trade Coffee' approach to moderate the number of bad computers exported, and has a video showing both sides of the story. A ban on exports leaves Africa with a choice of spending a year's income on a new PC, buying mixed loads of computers from undercapitalized recyclers, or remaining without this level of technology. And our choice seems to be to donate a decent computer mixed with other people's junk, or to grind it up in a perverse tribute to Vance Packard, as 'obsolescence in hindsight.'"

27 of 355 comments (clear)

  1. Good ones don't count by unixcrab · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem is, all the good charity work doesn't cancel out the toxic fallout from the scrapped hardware. Besides, the junk the richer countries send there is hardly a charitable donation, it's a dumping ground.

    1. Re:Good ones don't count by hedwards · · Score: 4, Informative

      Right, which is why it's so important to stick with shops that keep with the Basel conventions. Whenever these sorts of stories pop up, it's mainly due to a lack of adherence to the standards or due to the items being shipped to a place that wasn't involved in the first place.

      http://www.basel.int/ has more information.

    2. Re:Good ones don't count by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 4, Funny

      What's the problem? If you want to adhere to the Basil conventions, you send fawlty computers. I fail to see the issue here.

    3. Re:Good ones don't count by Joebert · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well until that day comes, everyone can feel free to ship these systems to me instead of spending a small fortune to ship them to Africa. I'll find something constructive to do with them. :)

      Joe Kovar
      1447 Gulf to Bay blvd #8
      Clearwater, FL 33755

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    4. Re:Good ones don't count by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 4, Funny

      I fail to see the issue here.

      Getting a load of fawlty towers with all the manuels missing is a major problem.

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    5. Re:Good ones don't count by jadin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dude, your mom's going to be pissed when she finds out you slashdotted her driveway.

  2. News? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We used "development aid" for ages to get rid of our surplus and other crap we'd have had to dispose of for a lot of money, now we do the same with electronics. Where's this news?

    I remember someone doing humanitary work there, giving a speech and essentially saying "Please help us. By not helping us". When we dump free food on a third world country, we ruin their farmers because they can't compete with free food. When we dump free clothing on them, we ruin the few textile mills they have. Essentially, what we do with development aid is to push them more and more into dependency because we ruin whatever industry for the local market might start to grow. Instead we force them to build industries for export, so they can somehow pay back the "development help" we "grant" them.

    Want to help? Then don't. Don't send your crap down there. Start trading with them. But not with some international corporation that squeezes the country and the people dry. Trade with companies from there.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:News? by thermian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When we dump free food on a third world country, we ruin their farmers because they can't compete with free food.

      Nice sentiment, but, you know, the 'third world' is a big place, and surprise surprise, if you don't live near one of these food producers, and there's a famine, you're dead unless someone gives you food.

      None of the Charities are saying that providing food is a long term solution, its just that its hard to talk long term to people whose kids will be dead by the end of the week if you don't hand over some rice now.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    2. Re:News? by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In deed. People don't recognize that Third World nations need something more sustainable than a band-aid. By giving these people food and clothing, all that is accomplished is a temporary fix and a few feel good points for those who donated. Really Third World nations need to be taught how to fish so-to-speak.

      I gladly buy from companies who have sweatshops in Central America. Is it because I'm a bad person? Hell no. I'm rewarding those who are trying to provide a living for their families in those poor regions without giving them a hand-out. Really the standard of life provided by the sweatshops in countries with them is much higher than the alternatives.

      --
      The game.
    3. Re:News? by fastest+fascist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's the humanitarian point of view. There's no guarantee that short-term aid doesn't result in long-term harm to developing societies, though. Let's face it, no-one seems to actually know how you should go about lifting a society out of desperate poverty, but many are willing to use 3rd world countries as testing grounds for their ideas. With private and governmental entities engaging in aid operations for a wide variety of reasons with insufficient coordination, expect chaos.

    4. Re:News? by thermian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Being a parent I find myself sympathising with the parents who know nothing of the wider reasons for the current famine, and who are solely concerned with feeding their child.

      Fewer images from news coverage of famines have effected me more then those of parents burying kids who died of starvation.

      Believe me, if your kids life is on the line, you give not a fuck about the morrow, just so long as that child is alive to see it.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    5. Re:News? by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they are starving, it's because they don't have sufficient resources to sustain their current population. If you let them starve, the population will contract to a sustainable level. If you give them food, the population will increase to even more unsustainable levels meaning you have to keep giving them food or face an even bigger level of starvation.

      They really need to stop having so many kids, smaller families will put far less of a strain on the available resources.

      And these third world countries were doing just fine before the europeans went and interfered with them... We really should just leave them alone to make their own way without interference.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    6. Re:News? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wow, someone who actually gets it. Every other species on the planet naturally lives and dies by such logic. Human beings though (especially those who live in first-world countries) seem to think that large numbers of people living within small radii is somehow normal. If there isn't enough natural-born prey to hunt (ie: without resorting to breeding) and/or fauna to pick, then a larger population is _not supposed to exist_! Only mankind could think there's a way to cheat the inevitable.

      The fact is that humanity isn't dying off fast enough. In fact, our planetary population continues to increase. Someday the phony sustainability we've been living under is going to crash, and billions are going to die (as they should).

      Think about it. If we were talking about an overpopulation of polar bears, birds, or deer that threatened the balance of the planet's combined ecosystem, mankind would have no problem murdering these animals in the billions to fix the problem. Isn't it funny how we overlook such ideas when it's our own "masters of the universe" species that is the problem?

    7. Re:News? by sleigher · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This point is important, except that it is exceptionally hypocritical to outlaw slavery in our home countries while supporting it abroad. I know it's not technically slavery but it is in many ways. I think 9 year olds should be in school, not a sweat shop.

      --
      All points of time and space are connected.
    8. Re:News? by NemoinSpace · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I was going to mod you into oblivion, but preservation of your post will serve to remind me; people like you really exist.

      The soulless anonymous coward dies a thousand deaths, the starving die but once.

    9. Re:News? by thermian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's a tad nazi-ish.

      Actually no, that's exactly nazi-ish.

      Care to tell me how you'd deal with the epidemic of obesity in the west?

      Render down 1 in 10? Start apportioning food based on a persons worth?

      Do tell.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    10. Re:News? by fastest+fascist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I for one am rather glad we tend to, apart from some notable exceptions, overlook ideas that amount to mass murder. It makes me feel that little bit safer to know that at least my neighbours are likely to feel a tad uncomfortable with the idea of killing me "to save mankind".

      If you truly feel drastic measures should be taken to reduce the human population, I invite you to start with yourself. Pick a building 6 storeys or more high and jump off the top. Or are you saying it's the OTHER humans that need thinning down, not you? Isn't it funny how we overlook some obvious solutions when it's our very selves that are the problem?

    11. Re:News? by c6gunner · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's sad that you got modded troll, since you're one of the few that seem to "get it". I'd only disagree with you on one thing:

      And these third world countries were doing just fine before the europeans went and interfered with them... We really should just leave them alone to make their own way without interference.

      They weren't doing "just fine" - they were miserable, poor, and died at an extremely early age from all sorts of easily curable diseases. The myth of the "noble savage" is a popular one, but it IS a myth.

      Even if it were possible for us to just "leave them alone", it wouldn't be a solution. They'd only continue to stagnate. Some (ok, most) of our current efforts might be misguided and even counterproductive, but we ARE helping them to improve their situation, even if just slightly, over a long period of time. What we should be doing is funding micro-lending ventures, and funneling as much money as possible into educating the residents of relatively stable areas. Help them to help themselves, instead of just dropping "aid" on them and leaving them to fight over our scraps.

    12. Re:News? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not bad that you send goods into struggling countries. It's what goods are being sent there. Sending there machines they can't produce themselves to make creation of goods easier is a good thing. But that's certainly not what happens in most cases.

      Our thinking of charity works without taking the implications into account. We see someone threatened by famine, so we send food. This is a good idea when the famine is already killing people, it is a very bad idea, though, when there are farms that can't produce enough. Those farms are killed by free food. Basic supply and demand, when there's free food, you can't sell yours. It would make more sense to send farming machinery and fertilizers to increase harvest. Instead, if we think past immediate "send food", we send engineered "power crops" that have the, for this area, very negative impact that they're infertile for the next season, so we have to send more seeds. And they eventually have to buy them since we killed their own.

      Basically, what we deem "development aid" these days is more and more nothing but an attempt to make the lesser developed countries more and more dependent on us. Either directly by making them dependent on our consumer goods (food, clothing, etc, by killing their own industry by sending free stuff), or by using a quite fiendish vendor lock in due to terminator crops or machines that require highly sophisticated spare parts.

      A prime example was a high tech water pump. Sure, it did provide the people with water. But at the same time, this pump required trained personnell to erect and maintain it, it required high tech spare parts and was quite expensive to maintain. A more sensible solution would have been a hand pump or another device that we'd consider "low tec", that could be easily maintained by the local people with local parts. I've seen very creative designs, they ain't dumb or lazy, and they're the best people I've ever seen when it comes to jury-rigging stuff, but you can't expect someone to come up with a way to jury-rig a machine that requires microelectronics when the welding transformer you built out of a few yards of copper cable and some old magnets is about as high-tech as you get.

      KISS has never been a more important thing to keep in mind than when it comes to sensible development aid.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    13. Re:News? by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The fact is that humanity isn't dying off fast enough. In fact, our planetary population continues to increase. Someday the phony sustainability we've been living under is going to crash, and billions are going to die (as they should).

      There's nothing phony about large scale industrialized farming. That's the natural way for an intelligent species to sustain a high population density. This does require a certain amount of societal stability, and when that stability falters millions will die. Billions of deaths at once in food production and distribution glitches is a bit high for the current population - food is grown too locally for that to happen.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    14. Re:News? by rohan972 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If there isn't enough natural-born prey to hunt (ie: without resorting to breeding) and/or fauna to pick, then a larger population is _not supposed to exist_!

      Supposed by whom? God? You? Who is this supposer that requires human populations to not exist except by hunter/gatherer subsistence, and why should we follow his dictates? We don't live by natural means. Artificial means made by human skill or produced by humans. By definition pretty much everything we do is not natural. Get used to it.

    15. Re:News? by linuxrocks123 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah. Get it. You have kids; you have the whole "parental mind warp" thing that comes with it going (anyone who thinks Steve Jobs's reality distortion field is bad hasn't observed some parents...), and it makes me personally very happy that you love your children so much you'd probably be willing to cause a global thermonuclear holocaust and kill off the entire rest of the planet just so your oh so wonderful spawn could live.

      But that doesn't really help solve the problem. Obviously children dying is bad, and we obviously want to stop that, but we also don't want them to sink into further dependence. And, a MAJOR part of the problem, actually ... is those children. Overpopulation is one of the worst aggravating factors of Africa's crisis.

      Since we can't really kill the children, and we don't really want to let them die, we feed them. Then those children reach breeding age and soon afterwards create more children, which also need food. And the circle continues.

      So what do we do? Well, a number of approaches have been proposed, including teaching the children how to not make more children the instant they become fertile. But it's really painfully obvious that we need to look further ahead than "stop them from starving", because we're just making the hole deeper. If you're sympathetic to their plight because you also reproduced, try to look for ways to stop the plight in the future, not just mitigate it in the present.

      --
      vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
  3. World Computer Exchange by unteer · · Score: 5, Informative

    I worked for the non-profit World Computer Exchange (http://worldcomputerexchange.org) and their entire effort is to provide working hardware (not software) to developing nations. They have been successful, a fact which I would attribute to their focusing on education and children's programs. But they do not simply dump machines on nations and then forget them, they also provide support and information on how to deal with e-waste in the developing nation. And though they aren't perfect (who is...?) I feel their efforts are worth noticing.

  4. There is some positive coverage alright by meist3r · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At least I know of the Linux4Africa project from a very positive news report on a fairly popular computer show on TV here in Germany. The project has already shipped several containers of fully functional donated computers to schools and institutions in Africa. http://www.linux4afrika.de/ I can't help with any international footage. Those who do speak German can check out the rather old video online: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/Linux_fuer_Afrika/219376 Or anyone dare to run this site through an online translator: http://www.3sat.de/neues/sendungen/magazin/112048/index.html I think one of the main reasons why there is such a ruckus about sending free computers to Africa is that the major nations are afraid of even more dirt cheap labor. Right now China and India are sucking huge amounts of resources into their boom and we can hardly keep up with our tiny countries. If someone started that Genesis device of economy in Africa with a kick of free technology this global system would surely collapse. At least what we know of it's power distribution right now.

  5. I can count 419 reasons why it's a bad idea... by TheSpatulaOfLove · · Score: 4, Informative

    And my email box is filled with the proof!

  6. Easy! by raehl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Care to tell me how you'd deal with the epidemic of obesity in the west?

    First, by West, you must mean US. There is no epidemic of obesity in Europe.

    My solution is simple - the new "Can't catch it, can't eat it" policy. Worked for millions of years. Put it in place in stages.

    Stage one is a ban on food delivery services. The morbidly obese will starve down to a weight where they can at least get into their cars and get to the drive thru.

    Stage two is a ban on drive thrus, so people will starve down to a weight when they can actually get out of their cars and into the counter or grocery store to get their food.

    Stage three is a weight limit on disabled parking passes. If you're so fat that you need a special parking permit to get to your food, you'll starve down to a weight where you can at least hobble in to get your food.

    Stage four is a ban on any personal scooters or electric wheelchairs that can support more than 250 lbs. If you're too fat to propel yourself, you'll starve down to a weight where you can at least stand up on your own.

    Stage five is the big one - the doors of any food retailer will no longer be allowed to be any wider than 20". Then people will at least starve down to a size where they can fit through the door.

    See? Piece of cake. Er....

  7. Dumped computers in Ghana by denoir · · Score: 4, Informative

    I spent some time in Ghana last year and the computer situation there is rather interesting. In all internet cafes the computers are ancient (we're talking 486 and first generation Pentium boxes). The monitors are on the other hand excellent. After we in the west switched to TFTs, they got our CRTs and kept the good ones. They are however of limited use due to the weakness of the computer hardware. It's really atrocious to see Windows 95 in 640x480 on a 21" monitor.

    Now as for the computers that don't work, while it is certainly not nice with the child labour and the pollution, if you ask the Ghanaians they would tell you that they would rather get our computer junk than not. The junk does have value and can provide them with an income that they would not have otherwise.

    Speaking of pollution, the really damaging thing we are exporting are our old cars from the 80's. They don't have cat-cons and from most cars you can see a black cloud of exhaust gases. Again however, they are happier with the cars than without them.

    The junk that we dump on them does nowhere near the damage that our blind and misdirected aid programs do. They result in two things: 1)financing of corrupt government officials 2)increasing the population beyond sustainable levels.

    Ultimately however they need to get their shit together. Ghana is one of the more developed west African countries, but the situation is quite bad. The politicians are corrupt beyond belief and the only type of business that thrives is one that colludes with the politicians. In short their local industry doesn't actually do anything. Every engineering project of value has been done by westerners. The talented and able leave the country as soon as they can. There was also from what I could see a complete lack of entrepreneurial spirit. All the smaller businesses are run by foreigners (westerners, lebanese, chinese..).

    When you drive down any of the main roads every 500m you have somebody with a small stand selling pineapples. That is as far as the local entrepreneurial spirit extends: street vendors. They sell exactly the same thing and nobody gets the idea of joining up with other vendors, expanding and centralizing etc.. in short running a business.

    My conclusion from my stay was that it is a very difficult problem. I'm not sure that it is solvable - they are currently in so deep shit that it's difficult to see a way out. And we can't really help them either in a meaningful way. Investments are impossible as they have a history of nationalizing any successful industry and running it in the ground. In addition you could not make any investments without upholding the corrupt political system. You can't do anything on a larger scale without having resort to massive bribes.

    It's however more than that - they not only have to fix their system, but they first have to want to fix their system. Yes, the people are complaining about the politicians, but the first chance they get they elect the rawest populist they can find. And when the government nationalizes foreign industries and seize the property of industrialists (that haven't greased the machinery enough), the people cheer. I know this is not a popular thing to say but to a large degree it's their own fault. Unlike pineapples, industry does not grow on trees (well, actually neither do pineapples as they grow in bushes, but you get the point) and they have to choose between their current style of political and economic management and having a working economy.