Slashdot Mirror


Getting Human Hands Back Into Digital Design

Hugh Pickens writes "Using computers to model the physical world has become increasingly common as products as diverse as cars and planes, pharmaceuticals and cellphones are almost entirely conceived, specified, and designed on a computer screen. Typically, only when these creations are nearly ready for mass manufacturing are prototypes made. But the NYTimes is running an interesting essay highlighting a little-noticed movement in the world of professional design and engineering: a renewed appreciation for manual labor, or innovating with the aid of human hands. 'A lot of people get lost in the world of computer simulation,' says Bill Burnett, executive director of the product design program at Stanford. 'You can't simulate everything.' Fifty years ago, tinkering with gadgets was routine for people drawn to engineering and invention, and making refinements with your own hands means 'you have to be extremely self-critical,' says Richard Sennett, whose book The Craftsman examines the importance of skilled manual labor. Even in highly abstract fields, like the design of next-generation electronic circuits, some people believe that hands-on experiences can enhance creativity. 'You need your hands to verify experimentally a technology that doesn't exist,' says Mario Paniccia, director of Intel's photonics technology lab."

87 comments

  1. Easy! by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Digitize your hands and use them in your digital environment.

    What... no good?

    1. Re:Easy! by sheepweevil · · Score: 2, Funny

      Real programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand: Oblig. XKCD

  2. Simple Reason by maz2331 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Modeling doesn't actually model everything, and an unknown factor can easily arise. It's easy to design a product, but hard to actually design one that works the first time around flawlessly.

    Craftsmen are still needed in meat-space.

    1. Re:Simple Reason by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Close... people can still do something that model's can't do yet -- understand the problem and want to solve it. Someday....

      And... for nerds I get, but - this is news?

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
  3. Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by notseamus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's true that in the world of building design as well that designing solely with computer allows you to overlook flaws with a design, and that a physical model is still the best way to test design. It's also true that you can't sketch an idea in AutoCad, and that the beginnings of a design in any field should be sketched/modelled. It's almost as if when something is conceived on computer it's automatically granted legitimacy.

    --
    I dreamed of Freud: What does this mean?
    1. Re:Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      An old prof of mine used to say "Never trust a digital meter, they lie with a straight face!"

    2. Re:Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by philspear · · Score: 1

      I find interesting parallels between this and computational biology especially on the molecular level. Maybe not parallels so much as reverse. Trying to figure out the folds of a complex protein, RNA mollecule, lipid layers, and especially interactions between two or more very often involves computational modeling. With millions or in some cases, damn near infinity possible permutations, you can't get very far by hand. In a lot of cases, even several computers won't do it. That's the reason for folding @ home.

      Needless to say, you can't directly look at the mollecule's structure, and often times you can't look indirectly at it either. The real smoking gun comes when someone manages to purify and crystalize the mollecule in question, and figure out it's structure from X-rays (I think they use X-rays at least sometimes.) However that's apperantly pretty hard to do even in the best of circumstances with only one molecule. I'm not sure, for example, if it's even theoretically possible to crystalize an intact transmembrane protein in a lipid bilayer. I suspect it isn't.

      That type of biology is utterly beyond comprehension for me, I have little understanding of the computers and physics behind it. Figuring out the nature of the interaction between two mollecules I can't see is a problem that would make me want to die, yet they manage to not only do it but make real-world applications like drugs based off it.

    3. Re:Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real smoking gun comes when someone manages to purify and crystalize the mollecule in question, and figure out it's structure from X-rays (I think they use X-rays at least sometimes.)

      Yes, you are thinking of X-ray crystallography.

    4. Re:Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's true that in the world of building design as well that designing solely with computer allows you to overlook flaws with a design, and that a physical model is still the best way to test design.

      It's also true that you can't sketch an idea in AutoCad, and that the beginnings of a design in any field should be sketched/modelled. It's almost as if when something is conceived on computer it's automatically granted legitimacy.

      I'm sorry but you remind me of some of the older teachers i had when studying architecture, they always repeated the same without having a clue of what they were talking about.

      First of all: AutoCad equals a computer as much as a protractor equals hand drawing. Sure, you can't sketch a design using a protractor and a right angle ruler. This debate between computer/hand drawing, hand modeling is pretty useless. Fundamentally the limitations of a computer are 'input' and 'output' (since the computer per se can handle data much better than paper). With a keyboard, mouse, digital stylus and 3d controllers, you can not only emulate paper and hand modeling but surpass it by a long way and try different approaches to designing, like scripting or using parametric relationships between components.

        The fact is that there is a lot of software for designing and does a much better job that hand drawing/modeling. For example, try manually designing an environmentally friendly building. You've got software that displays real time the shadow range the building will cast, thermal analysis, lighting analysis, acoustic response, much more, and all in the initial stages of design, so you can try different layouts quickly, and see what works better.

      The only advantage of a physical model is that if you don't have good spatial perception, you'll understand the space better than looking at a flat screen since you are looking at it in stereo, but you can always buy some stereo goggles, Boeing use them when designing.

    5. Re:Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

      Good argument, but I think the other guys have a good argument for physical modeling as well. Maybe I'm going one step further with physical testing, but I think it's related. I'll go to the Mythbusters example. On that show how often does a physical test reveal something completely overlooked in the sketch phase? All the time I think. It just seems like unless you have limitless imagination, i.e. you can write a super complicated software program with zero bugs and all errors trapped without testing, I just don't see how doing some physical testing can be bad.

    6. Re:Hand Generated Work is Necessary in All Fields by virgil_disgr4ce · · Score: 1

      Good points. I feel like nobody is really framing these arguments correctly: in terms of tools. Two of the tools in question are software (drafting/modeling) and hand (drawing/modeling). Each have their advantages and disadvantages. My personal experience is that I almost always start a projectâ"whether it be graphic design or installation artâ"on paper, simply for speed. I think anyone would agree that pencil on paper is a faster prototyper than software, especially with experience. The only faster prototyping mechanism is your imagination, which has lots of other limitations and is a separate argument. What I like about drawing / hand modeling is that it gives you a different range of texture and poetry than software. I feel like you only really start drafting in software once you already have a system of ideas or have to in order to reach a new level of complexity. That being said, obviously there's no reason to ideologically eschew any individual tool. Tools are used when they do the best job, and it behooves us to have a fully-featured toolkit.

  4. Warning by Dannybolabo · · Score: 2, Informative

    Warning: TFA requires registration, or, bugmenot.

    --
    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
    1. Re:Warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it doesn't.

  5. Soldering Party? by Extremus · · Score: 1

    Three girls using the "art of soldering"? Haha! Right! Nice place to work this Adobe place...

    1. Re:Soldering Party? by FlyByPC · · Score: 1

      The "art of soldering," maybe -- but what soldering technique involves gripping the iron in one's fist, as if to stab someone in the back with a dagger?

      You'd think if they were teaching soldering, they would start with how to hold the things. About the only way you could do it worse is to grab the actual business end!

      --
      Paleotechnologist and connoisseur of pretty shiny things.
    2. Re:Soldering Party? by mpoulton · · Score: 1

      The "art of soldering," maybe -- but what soldering technique involves gripping the iron in one's fist, as if to stab someone in the back with a dagger? You'd think if they were teaching soldering, they would start with how to hold the things. About the only way you could do it worse is to grab the actual business end!

      That's the first thing I noticed when I opened the article! Using that sort of grip is a very clear indication that thee isn't much real hacking going on there. Sort of like the electronics equivalent of tee-ball.

      --
      I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
  6. Just give it time ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    'You can't simulate everything.'

    Yet.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    1. Re:Just give it time ... by Orange+Crush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yet.

      Ever.

      A simulation is only as good as its input data and ability to map output data to meatspace. A computer simulation of anything in the real world, even if the simulation itself is perfect, will always be limited by its ability to acquire data from to real world to model, and the ability to implement the model physically in the real world. Going from analog to digital and back to analog always loses something in the translation.

    2. Re:Just give it time ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Correct, but let's not be so anal. It is possible that limited simulations can be developed that could completely destroy manual design in certain fields (since you don't need to know quantum mechanics or the gravitational pull of Pluto to design a bridge). I would say that it is reasonably likely that in the next 20 years we will see classical physics simulation engines become the primary design *and* testing ground for most engineering products, with the exception of testing critical projects like bridges and aircraft.

    3. Re:Just give it time ... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Probably true, for the map is not the territory. Except for rather extreme cases where the map is excessively and probably uselessly large, that is. (Hmm... this is the digital era. Perhaps I should remove my foot from the gunsight reticle? There's probably more information on me than there is in me, by now.)

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    4. Re:Just give it time ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Certainly ... but the issue is whether or not the simulation provides data sufficiently accurate for the purpose at hand. Right now simulators aren't adequate for many things, but that will changes. Ultimately, if we achieve a true man-machine interface, you could be turning a prototype assembly over in a pair of virtual hands, only you wouldn't be able to tell that they weren't real.

  7. Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by Animats · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Americans can't afford to waste their time doing things with their hands. That's what low wage countries are for. Americans have to concentrate on the profitable things, like banking, hedge funds, and real estate speculation. You can't get rich with machine shop skills. Or even with the skills to set up an production line. You don't get any respect for that.

    A few years ago, I ran a DARPA Grand Challenge team. We had some bright young people with an interest in robotics and the ability to make complex hardware work. Where are they now? One is running a hedge fund in Santa Fe. One went to Bermuda to work for an offshore financial operation. One went to a search engine company. One headed a group developing software inside the iPhone. They're all making lots of money, but they're not doing robotics. They can't afford to.

    Yes, it's sad, Yes, it's leading to the decline of the United States. But if you're young and have college loans to pay off, what can you do?

    1. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, it's sad, Yes, it's leading to the decline of the United States. But if you're young and have college loans to pay off, what can you do?

      A very profitable area for young students to go into is "Intellectual Property" law, which field is also hastening the decline of the United States.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Are you lamenting that they can't make any money tinkering with complex hardware? I built parts of the TDRSS(Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System) for NASA while working for TRW. These Satellites have been in orbit for 25 years, just about the only thing I have ever built that is still in use. In 1983, I was paid $5.39/hour. I took a pay-cut from the Army to go to work for TRW. Now, I make 10 times that. Is someone going to pay me what I make now to build components for TRW? Probably not.

      Just as Henry Ford figured out, you have to amplify your manual labor with machines to beat the competition.

      So, when you were done with the competition, what did you/they do? This was a one-off solution that very few people would buy. Where is the commercialization of their work?

      If I remember correctly, the latest winner barely had room for the driver in the car. And the total cost of the vehicle is more than anyone, other than DARPA, would pay for.

      So, what did the Challenge prepare them for? What were they going to do with the skill set they obtained while working on the Challenge?

    3. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by knarf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fortunate then that not everyone is out to get rich. In case you forget, financial gain is not the only possible motivation.

      --
      --frank[at]unternet.org
    4. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by springbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah but all of that crap is really boring in my opinion. I'd rather do something that is enjoyable that be drained by taking the path that leads to "easy money."

    5. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, why did you take a pay cut to work for TRW and build tech that lasted for 25 years ? ... just curious .. ... why didn't you become a mortgage-broker, you could have made a lot of money in the 80's before the S&L scandal brought down that house of cards and resulted in a huge taxpayer bailout (anyone remember the RTC ?).

      The point is not that tinkering/experimenting should be paid excessivly well in all cases, it's that NOT tinkering/experimenting leads eventually to an inability to do so when needed. And right now, we're actively discouraging anything that can't be immediately 'commercialized' for the benefit of the status-quo power-holders.

    6. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by servognome · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One is running a hedge fund in Santa Fe. One went to Bermuda to work for an offshore financial operation. One went to a search engine company. One headed a group developing software inside the iPhone. They're all making lots of money, but they're not doing robotics.

      Why is that a bad thing? It's not just about individuals chasing money, it's about companies *gasp* hiring intelligent people to do important things like manage large amounts of resources. Their choices aren't contributing to the decline of the US, they're keeping it going. Eventually robitics will be an enough part of the economy to keep smart people, but it hasn't matured to that point yet.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    7. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by shadowofwind · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's sad, Yes, it's leading to the decline of the United States. But if you're young and have college loans to pay off, what can you do?

      I don't believe that most people have no choice. I went to a relatively expensive state university, and was able to pay my own tuition by working hard in resturaunts and landscaping, without any help from my parents and without borrowing any money. Granted, had I gone to Harvard it would have been more expensive, but a lot of other decent schools like Ohio State would have been a lot cheaper. And a lot of better students could have gotten scholarships. I think its more often a matter of people selling out, and not being willing to work hard during school breaks. People get what they choose. If they choose money over other kinds of value, that's what they get, and the country gets what it deserves also. I think that more tuition support could actually make the problem worse, because people would just be that much more spoiled.

    8. Re:Americans don't do that. Third world people do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God bless America...

      still?

      well, China is still doing lots manually.. maybe it's a good sign.

  8. Digital environments by pjt33 · · Score: 5, Funny

    A pedant could argue that if you're using your fingers it's already digital.

    1. Re:Digital environments by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Perhaps, but then you're limited to eight bits.

    2. Re:Digital environments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...or that "digital" isn't really digital but rather binary/hexadecimal.

    3. Re:Digital environments by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Funny

      I count ten bits, personally. Are you Yakuza, by any chance?

    4. Re:Digital environments by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      duh, you're missing the sign and parity bits.

  9. yep, thats great! by Jotaigna · · Score: 4, Funny

    good luck with that!. (walks back to computer screen).

    --
    "The quality of life is inversely proportional to the number of keys on your keyring."
    1. Re:yep, thats great! by Firehed · · Score: 1

      How are you posting to Slashdot if not already at a computer screen?

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    2. Re:yep, thats great! by Jotaigna · · Score: 1

      because the workstation with the CAD software is not connected to the net.

      --
      "The quality of life is inversely proportional to the number of keys on your keyring."
  10. Interpolation vs. extrapolation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If the device being modeled is already well understood, then computer modeling saves time and money. Giant aircraft are almost never prototyped any more. They are designed, modeled and tested on the computer. The first physical plane is ready to fly.

    Another thing computer modeling is good for is trying many different things. For instance, in microwave class we used to build a microstrip amplifier. It was a real pain and not all students were successful. The students get much better experience using Microwave Workbench.

    I do agree that hands-on is necessary for some purposes but ...

  11. I work on embedded systems... by RealGene · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ..that interact with and measure the "real" world. As far as I'm concerned, I never stopped working with my hands, even though I'm writing soft/firmware. There's an o'scope on my desk, and a soldering iron on my workbench. If I had to work exclusively within the bounds of a PC, I'd find another line of work.

    Gene

    --
    Mission: To provide products that consume time and energy as entertainingly as permitted by the laws of thermodynamics.
  12. The First boing 777 flew by giorgist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The first Boing 777 flew and flew exactly as the model predicted.

    There was a time when you would make a physical model to see how it will behave, but no longer. They sort of do it with cars but only for the sake of styling. Aerodynamic models are more accurate and styling is more important so there is no need for wind tunel testing.

    Modern Cad pakages like SolidWorks, Catia, ProE are amazing and almost a comodity.

    Skilled manual labour is a beautiful thing, but is becoming more distant

    I am sure there is a SciFi script in this.

    G

    1. Re:The First boing 777 flew by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how many wind tunnel tests? and materials tests? and? and? Its more than just drawing it up and running 'simulations' those simulations have to be tested to make sure they adhere to the physical world.

    2. Re:The First boing 777 flew by icegreentea · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Remember the 777 wing stress testing? When they loaded the wings till it was about to explode? We covered it on slashdot a while ago. I think that's physical modeling. They may have modeled it on computer first, but they still needed the physical test to confirm.

      And I'm sure some designers ended up making small scale mocks, or partial mockups of maintenance bays to make sure everything was easily serviceable and stuff.

    3. Re:The First boing 777 flew by hcdejong · · Score: 1

      they still needed the physical test to confirm.

      No, they (the FAA) still wanted the physical test for certification.

    4. Re:The First boing 777 flew by hcdejong · · Score: 2, Informative

      They sort of do it with cars but only for the sake of styling.

      The number of prototypes for a new car has gone down significantly, but they're still used at all stages of the design process. Noise/vibration/harshness tests are one big area where models aren't accurate enough yet. Endurance tests are also still done.

      The aviation industry is ahead in this regard because it's insanely expensive to build a prototype of an airliner.

  13. ProE etc by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I once saw a very simple electronics box designed in ProE. Looked great. Everything fitted neatly. Only problem was that it was impossible to assemble because the positioning of a mounting boss made it impossible to slide a connector through a required hole.

    Luckily the project manager was "old school" and had an SLA made which showed up the problem before the big-cost plastic injection molding dies were made.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  14. Every step has to be made, at its time by papabob · · Score: 1

    Handmade work is still in use, but good designing practices has taught us that it's easier to reduce 'common mistakes' with the use of automated tools at some stages. You can't make all step of modern microelectronics by hand and still be competitive (you'd use much more manpower and your product certainly will be delivered too late), as you can't use a rule and a pencil to design a modern building.

    The perfect workflow (or perhaps the more efficient) is to use the best tools available to reach an advanced point of your design- the same point that your competitors can reach with the same tool, and then use your expertise/handwork/experience to refine it and differentiate your product from others.

    OTOH, modern CAD software is very complex and saying that working with it is 'less creative' is a kick in the ass to those great engineers who have created authentic pieces of electronic art with it.

  15. I'm laying out boards right now by mako1138 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Rest assured, laying out a complex circuit board is still very much a "hands on" process, because interacting with the software is a real pain.

    1. Re:I'm laying out boards right now by WillRobinson · · Score: 1

      I always thought the "autoroute" was a joke, but i guess it can get some work done. Nothing like experience to keep traces away from noisy signals.

      Design programs are a great tool to those that already have hands on experience, the experiences helps avoid common mistakes. Such as tollerances in cad programs, bolts in places that keep you from assembling the piece.

      Think this is like the rest of real life, start out with a pencil, and move up when you have some experience under the belt.

  16. Isaac Asimov by Chicken_Kickers · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If I'm not mistaken, Isaac Asimov wrote in Foundation's Edge that the reason why humans have developed a technological society is because we have hands. Dolphins and whales have sizeable brains but they lack hands. He even goes as far to say that humans 'thinks' with their hands, in that the hands are manifestations of intelligence.

    1. Re:Isaac Asimov by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Okay, but what about gorillas and ravens, which are intelligent and have hands, or elephants, which are intelligent and have a trunk with functionality equivalent to opposable thumbs?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    2. Re:Isaac Asimov by salec · · Score: 1

      If I'm not mistaken, Isaac Asimov wrote in Foundation's Edge that the reason why humans have developed a technological society is because we have hands. Dolphins and whales have sizeable brains but they lack hands.

      Actually, technological society came to being because we needed tools (weapons included) so much and so often that crafting them gradually became so elaborate, leading to concept of keeping objects from environment, carefully picked and/or processed, in one's possession. Early humans assigned value to their tool making efforts, which led to keeping valuable assets (very useful, but too slow to make on the spot if urgently needed), which led to concept of property, which led to concept of trade, which led to specialization, ... etc.

      Should had nature equipped our ancestors with more able limbs or other powerful body part tools, regardless of intelligence, we would had never became a material civilization. Earth's highest organizational achievement would be a hive society - organized multitude of naturally well equipped drones.

      There are other animals that also use or even make tools, but they throw them away after using them and make another ones when needed (we are approaching that state of mind again in modern consumer society). They either have no concept of objects' value or, alternatively, they have it but it is topped by inconvenience of having to carry tools around and thus encumber own movement.

      He even goes as far to say that humans 'thinks' with their hands, in that the hands are manifestations of intelligence.

      We 'think' with our whole body and some more (projection of imagination or attention, Ki/Chi), and we especially think a lot with what we use the most: i.e. our eyes, other senses and our faces, which evidently shows, then hands ... however that is similar to other species. Certainly birds mostly think with their eyes and wings, fish with their whole bodies, etc.

      If there is intelligent life out there in other solar systems, it is more probable for them to be like other non-human intelligent animals of the Earth then to have an advanced material civilization. As Jarred Diamond observed, the latter is consequence of lucky circumstances and is usually in short supply on planetary scale. Intelligence-wise, we will sooner and more often find Aliens (or, if we are lucky, Dolphins) then E.T. .

    3. Re:Isaac Asimov by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

      Gorillas and ravens didn't have the alien intervention that we did.

    4. Re:Isaac Asimov by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 1

      Chimps have hands. What have they done?

      --
      Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
  17. You are kidding right? by PotatoHead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What you do, is build stuff and fuck the rest of them.

    It's that simple.

    Perhaps you can't do it on the job --that's the case with me. You can however, do what you want to on your time and the skills you build will provide value for you later on.

    There is absolutely no place on this earth where the simple equation for wealth, which is innovation applied to labor over time, does not apply.

    We are being told it does not apply here, that we are a consumer economy and that the world would crash if we quit consuming shit.

    Don't believe one word of it.

    We have the trade deficits today, the economic trouble we do today, for one reason and one only:

    We don't carry our weight as Americans. Until we fix that, we will slowly be owned by the rest of the world perfectly willing to carry theirs.

    1. Re:You are kidding right? by Mike1024 · · Score: 1

      What you do, is build stuff and fuck the rest of them.

      It's that simple.

      In the GP's example of the DARPA grand challenge, I'm not sure it's quite that simple.

      I mean, if you're competing in the DARPA urban challenge, you need several things.

      A system combining a high precision GPS with high precision inertial measurement and an Omnistar subscription. Budget: $80,000
      A Velodyne HD LIDAR - Budget $75,000
      Five count SICK LMS-291 LIDARs - budget 5*$7000 = $35,000
      38 motivated, intelligent engineers, programmers and administrators for 1 year. 38*$50,000 = $1,900,000

      I'm sure in the computer programming world you can program the next big thing on your home computer with free tools. However, that does not generalise to everything. To develop some cutting edge technologies you also need money and competent people.

      --
      "Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
  18. Are Americans from another planet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Take the "planet" bit with appropriate humour, but I'm serious about the rest.

    In the fairly developed nation of planet Earth that I come from (UK), the majority of people no longer work at whatever job they can get, regardless of interest. The *vast* majority have at least some passing interest in their line of work (and that's how they choose it in the first place), even in jobs that some might think of as "menial", in the services, or building site labour, counter and cleaning staff. Many of these jobs are not particularly pleasant (plumbers fixing broken toilets are not always delighted with their environment), but in general, people do have some initial interest in their choice, quite apart from later finding satisfaction in acquiring some competence in their area of work.

    I have always found the above to be true of all working people in "the West", and I have always believed that this is true of Americans as well, since the US is as advanced a country and society as any European one. I think.

    I have many friends in the US, including ex work colleagues who moved there, and your description of Americans does not ring a bell at all. But maybe my friends are not representative.

    So, tell me, even if what you wrote was partly tongue-in-cheek (but not all of it was, since you regret that those bright young people of yours no longer work in robotics), how can it be that Americans can't afford to waste time doing what they enjoy and what interests them? The need to make money is not a satisfactory answer, except for the unfortunate bottom layer who are not very well covered by the welfare safety net in the US (or so I hear).

    I can't even begin to envisage the kind of "developed country" in which your premise is true.

    If you are being serious, then perhaps the "other planet" angle isn't so far fetched. Please explain.

  19. Simulation gives us more by tftp · · Score: 4, Informative

    A computer model is far more useful than a piece of hardware on your desk. It does more and costs less.

    One important aspect is measurements. There is no easy way to do any meaningful measurements in a microwave circuit unless it is specifically designed for that (and for nothing else.) However a CST or Ansoft model allows you to measure the field, or the current, or whatever else you want in any point of the model (and of the space around it, if you build an antenna, for example.) These measurements will be totally non-invasive, as opposed to a real-world probe that you would have to use. Some RF designs require hundreds of iterations before you achieve the desired compromise between all your design goals. Doing this in a computer will take a month. Doing this in metal will take 10 years.

    Another advantage is in parametric design. Usually models are not hardcoded, but defined with a set of parameters (Excel for Autodesk Inventor, built-in spreadsheets for SolidWorks, etc.) You can manipulate these parameters and [almost] instantly see their effect. To do this in a real-world hardware you'd need weeks and thousands of dollars.

    Per my current practice, the model is built only as a working prototype, when the design has been done and validated on the computer. This model can be also used as a sales demo, but the main purpose of building it is to verify the calculations, and the quality of the overall design (such as "can it be assembled?")

    1. Re:Simulation gives us more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So...you're saying that a computer is useful in computation-intensive design work....

      Pardon me but, duh!

      I guess the point the article in the context of your work is along the lines of:

      What would you think of an engineer whose experience in circuit design is exclusively in computer simulations? An electrical engineer that has never even messed around with a breadboard? Do you think this person would be competent? Would you hire him/her?

      Likewise for the adobe people, don't you think they could use meat-space experience to connect with the needs of the customers that buy their products? After all, people start to use photoshop, for instance, primarily to do things that they can already do with a non-digital camera.

    2. Re:Simulation gives us more by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I agree completely. SPICE printouts make an excellent cover for the bottom of my bird cage.

  20. Porn by $0.02 · · Score: 1

    I know he will first convert those digital hands into $$$$$.

    --
    If enithin kan gow rong it whil. (Murfey)
  21. What is a skill? by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I asked my then - 8 year old daughter "Do you know what a skill is, dear?"

    "Yes Daddy, it's something you know with your skin."

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  22. Some Thoughts by zazenation · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This topic has been in the back of my mind for a while now. Some musings.

    If we continue to use expert systems to design things using coded models of behavior, we need to be cautious about interpreting the output of those models. Airplane wings are wind-tunnel tested to see that they conform to the model's predictions. This is well and good. But as more complex non linear chaotic objects are modeled, one needs to be crucially aware of the model as being just a "model" not the actual object (with all it's nuances and quirky behaviors). Look at the level of detail and redundancy in the space program for a lesson in exhaustive modeling, and still resulting in tragedy and gross error (Hubble comes to mind).

    I remember when the Star Wars initiative was the talk of the Friday night grogs. Most engineers (at least the software designers) thought it impossible to design a bug-free mission critical system to support it, but were happy to give it the good ole college try in any case.

    Rely on tools to design robots to design machines, didn't someone write a sci-fi story about that once?

  23. learning...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is different from mimicking.......
    100% agree

  24. If the model doesn't tell you by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

    what the real world item will be like then improve the model. Next time you can use the model. With all due respect to the Old School of Engineering, I wouldn't plant a farm using a mule, I wouldn't design a house with an abacus, I wouldn't write software without a compiler, and I wouldn't walk the 30 kilometers to work every day.

    Technology is used because it has proven itself to be better for the task. Yes! you will have mistakes and discrepencies. But today's models are only unhelpful when they are misused. For example, the computer modeled piece of electronics someone mentioned did not include modeling the assembly process.

    From a spoon to a Boeing 777, everything in the realm of common physics can now be properly and completely modeled on a computer. Building a model by hand is no longer useful than to let you reach out and touch your creation, or to let more tactile learners understand engineering better.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:If the model doesn't tell you by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't plant a farm using a mule,

      Mules don't pollute.

      I wouldn't write software without a compiler,

      Yet it's still useful, sometimes, to look at the output of that compiler -- and necessary, sometimes (in very limited situations) to write software without a compiler. Think bootloaders, tight loops in video games or microcontrollers, etc.

      and I wouldn't walk the 30 kilometers to work every day.

      I do walk the half mile or so, though. At least that way, I get some exercise.

      I'm not saying we should all bring back the old ways, but it's useful to know what was (and is still) good about them.

      I don't like doing a lot of arithmetic in my head. That said, it's still useful to know how to estimate, because then I know when I've mistyped something, or when there is something seriously wrong with the program. That is: I don't have to know exactly what 23*51 is, but I'm certain it's not under a hundred, and I'm certain it's not over a billion.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    2. Re:If the model doesn't tell you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a mechanical engineer... in some ways this is more of the same and in some ways this is very different from the largely represented electrical and computer engineers. However, as a person who has worked on some reasonably wild design projects, not everything in the physical word is well enough understood to have a model and then solve the problem. At some point, you often need to do testing to make sure that your models really are reality. Further, while there have been great advances in design on computers, there really is nothing like seeing the object in front of you so that you can 'kick the tires'. This is not always economically feasible, like in the case of designing a jumbo jet.

      Computers are very amazing tools--but creativity is not yet one of their strong suits. Anything that helps stir the creative juices, including prototypes, can be very advantageous in that it can help come up with far superior ideas.

    3. Re:If the model doesn't tell you by mpoulton · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't write software without a compiler,

      Fortunately there are still some CE students out there who are learning assembly and machine code, and designing basic processors from silicon. Without that knowledge base, who do you think is going to write new compilers and design completely new hardware architectures?

      I think the general rule is that using tools to abstract complex design tasks is great, as long as there are people on the team who truly understand the tools and their outputs. Otherwise, we risk a major problem if the tool or its output does not work as expected. Consider a car/manufacturing analogy! You can buy a hypothetical automated factory that designs and produces cars all by itself, and automatically maintains all of its own equipment. It is very efficient and beats all the manual labor/human design competitors. It's a fairly expensive investment. Would you be comfortable owning and running this factory without having any humans available who actually know how everything works and can fix it themselves? If not, would you run a semiconductor design and manufacturing business where no human actually understands the designs going on silicon at the most fundamental level, or the basis for all the manufacturing process parameters?

      --
      I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
    4. Re:If the model doesn't tell you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mules don't pollute? You're fucking ignorant.

    5. Re:If the model doesn't tell you by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt that farts and shit rival the carbon emissions from even one tractor. Or combine.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  25. Those insensitive clods! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My digital design IS hand-crafted!

    What, isn't a mouse or a stylus a tool for accomplishing precision handiwork? Doesn't it take skill and concentration to pull beziers into just the right position for a smooth flowing and eye-pleasing line? Is there less need for building a harmonious pallete when it's pixels and not paint? (Try not to bring gamut or precision into this. Since it's not likely to ever be consistent anyways.) Doesn't pulling vertices about to build proper form on a 3D mesh take practice and patience? And not to count the time for going over texts for special characters, ligatures, and manually kerning where the automatic features only manage to fail. And don't even get me started if any animation is involved!

    * Of course it doesn't hurt to occasionally practice and further develop using traditional media, but not everyone can actually afford to do so. (Costs of decent paints, printing materials, or traditional modeling materials can add up pretty fast.)

  26. beyond CAD by dkloke · · Score: 1

    I sometimes think that an over-reliance on success at the modeling stage can lead to things like unusable software. I'm currently working with a product that theoretically replaces me. but because it can't break its own rules, it ends up coming short in real-world applications, and here I am not only operating a product that is too sophisticated for the average user, but that is also intrinsically incapable of doing some very simple things that are only called for about 2% of the time. but when you need em, you need em. and those last 2% can make the difference between success and failure. but that doesn't make the product a failure; it's unquestionably good at what it does do. the failure lies on the part of users/planners/managers who mistake power and complexity for universality.

  27. analog integrated circuit designer by Komi · · Score: 2, Interesting
    In the IC design market, we're certainly not going back to hand design. :) But that's probably expected. We have to integrate many, many devices (thousands in my case, but millions for the digital guys), and they are incredibly small. Gone are the days of predicting silicon behavior with equations on a napkin. These simpler models still provide good insight, but we need simulation software that can better predict how the circuit will behave to even have a chance of success. (Plus each spin on silicon costs millions of dollars. The bosses don't like it when we don't get it right.)

    Having said that, we can get too dependent on the tools. Sometimes for certain circuits we learn that if this line cross that point, we're good. But it's too easy to forget why it would cross that point or even what the line measures. Today more than ever it's essential that good designer's understand what's physically going on. The tool can't truly model everything accurately, and even if it could it can't truly run all possible scenarios even with today's compute resources (my top level sims run for about a week). So the tools have limitations and we must be aware of them. A guy with a wrench can't assume everything is hexagonal, or that everything should be torqued in the first place.

    Also, software tools can pidgin-hole us. They are written with a certain design paradigm in mind. That might represent good practice over a long period of time and over many different types of circuits, but eventually you'll hit limitations. You need to understand those limitations to build a better tool. We need to know when it's time to shift paradigms. Now new paradigms come along before the old ones even get broken in because we're working with tens of nanometers for features sizes.

    Anyway, this is just the perspective from the integrated circuit industry (and specifically on the analog side). But I suspect that in this world of so much device integration that we'll really need computers to keep track of all the amazing richness of technology that these new widgets contain.

    --
    The ultimate goal of science is to unify all forces of nature to a single law that can be silk-screened onto a T-shirt.
    1. Re:analog integrated circuit designer by randyest · · Score: 1

      Right on. Digital and Mixed-signal ASIC guy here: try billions of transistors. I'm supposed to arrange those 45nm-sized things with my fucking hands? And then wire them up to make sure they all talk to each other with picosecond accuracy? With my hands?! Give me a break. The first article reads like an ad for the Tinker School. Don't get me wrong -- that's cool and all, and good for learning, especially for kids. But to claim that "next-generation electronic circuits" are (a) "highly abstract" and (b) require "hands-on experiences" to make is utter bullshit.

      The second article doesn't mention electronic circuits, but it does talk about Craftsmen and their tools. Well, for my craft, computers are my tools. It's not like you can go to Best Buy and purchase a software package that will run by itself and spit out artwork for a 10-million-gate ASIC. It takes an expert to use the computer, often writing his or her own custom programs to do what no existing commercial software can. That's still craftsmanship, and it's still "hands-on" -- on the keyboard :)

      --
      everything in moderation
  28. Well, I think... by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    a sketch pad counts as manual labor, and I don't see sketch pads along with white boards going away anytime soon. And any decent designer has a sketch pad.

    But please don't throw away your rulers and compasses if what you are drawing is the final blueprint.

  29. It's a double edged sword... by NeuroManson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I see plenty of ads in Craigslist for artists, but for the most part, they also involve your ability to code and require experience with very expensive software (hard to afford for a traditional artist trying to move INTO digital). But the coding thing is ridiculous.

    Seems to me that all they're really doing is looking for a way to get one employee to do three jobs for one set salary. Either that, or they're just clueless, and think every picture or painting starts out in Photoshop, and THEN artists move into sketching the image to paper.

    But most ironically, a lot of them will AVOID hiring traditional artists for the same reason they're supposedly looking to hire them for.

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
  30. Use Simulation When Appropriate, Ditto Prototyping by truthinquest · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree that there's a place for simulation, but some commenters seem to think that it is sufficient. So Boeing built and successfully flew a 777; that says nothing about how easy it is for the pilot to use the controls, or the mechanic to repair a tailfin assembly, or for a passenger to put their pants back on after using the restroom. Can a simulation package replace feedback from a pilot's attempt to use a control panel? (For that matter, DOES it even make sense to simulate this with a CAD model? Well, I suppose there's always a virtual reality setup ...)

    Ditto with antenna design. The value of the simulation software is in optimizing effectiveness at receiving a signal. That has nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of installation.

    Have you tried to change motor oil and filter on a recent model subcompact car? It's much harder than it was 25 years ago, unless you have a lift (or mechanic's pit), sometimes special tools, and can reset the onboard computer so that it doesn't report you as voiding the warranty. It's obviously not a design objective to facilitate owner-performed maintenance. There could be any number of reasons for this, but it seems to me that "easy to change the oil" would also translate into more productive mechanics at service stations and car dealerships, maybe even lower prices and/or higher profits. We may never know.

    I object to the dismissal (or de-emphasis) of issues or concerns that can't be simulated by hand-off software packages -- such as installation and upgrades; ease of use; maintenance and repairs; you know -- all that stuff that involves a messy human. (And maybe someone who ultimately might determine whether you remain employed and/or your employer remains in business. Ah, if only it were that simple ...) Alas, your Pointy-Haired Boss can sabotage any attempt to do the right thing, so you might need to use people skills -- you do have some, don't you? -- to make your case.

    Certainly there's a place for simulation(s). If it makes it any more palatable, then think of prototyping as a hands-on simulation that attempts to address the interface(s) where user meets product. Of course, you need a lot more intelligence in the data analysis stage, as there's no software to substitute for thinking.

    Check out the examples cited in "The Craftsman" by Richard Sennett, along with anecdotes in "The Design of Everyday Things" by Donald A. Norman in order to broaden your perspective on design to include a "user". Just maybe you can rise above the undesirable consequences of designs that don't account for the ultimate consumer of a product.

  31. Something always has to give... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Growing up and around the auto industry I've been able to see the heavy shift to reliance on computers. While they have been able to achieve great things towards building a better, safer and cheaper product with far less waste I've seen the practicality of design swept away in the same stroke. Most modern cars are designed with little thought to serviceability. When they designed the Dodge Intrepid all on computers in '99 I think it was, sure that was a great accomplishment. However there wasn't a single practical thing about the layout of the engine from a serviceability standpoint. There are some of the flaws that I've see with the over reliance towards doing everything virtually. Building something with your hands forces you to deal with real space and constraints. It's time consuming and will cause you to stumble at times, but ultimately I feel it will build a better product.

  32. relevant by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

    I find this article relevant, as I am currently in the process of doing a "hands-on" test design of a modern CPU, using solderless breadboards and individual transistors.

    It's the size of a football field and won't run reliably at clock speeds higher than 0.004 GHz, but hey.

  33. Re:Use Simulation When Appropriate, Ditto Prototyp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's obviously not a design objective to facilitate owner-performed maintenance. There could be any number of reasons for this, but it seems to me that "easy to change the oil" would also translate into more productive mechanics at service stations and car dealerships, maybe even lower prices and/or higher profits. We may never know.

    Driver: "An hour in labor charges for an oil change? Screw it, I'll drive another 5000 miles before changing."

    Independent Mechanic: "Well, your bearings are all shot to hell. Cost you $5000 for a new engine. Even at an hour an oil change, you shoulda changed your oil on schedule. You coulda gone a million miles with this car."

    Dealer Mechanic: "Well, your bearings are all shot to hell. It's got 200,000 miles on it, though. Guess you'll wanna talk to our sales department about a trade-in."

    A productive independent mechanic doesn't add any profit for the car's manufacturer, no matter how good (or bad) the consumer's maintenance is.

    A productive dealer service bay probably makes more money for the dealer when the maintenance is complicated/expensive enough to either (a) make more hourly profits for the dealer's mechanic, or (b) discourage the consumer from doing good maintenance, and ensure a repeat visit a few years down the road.

  34. No disagreement by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    on things at the scale of the DARPA bit.

    However, that does not extend to "cutting edge" technologies in general. Of course, with computers it's easy to do stuff as it's mostly virtual.

    Other examples include, prototypes for product design, micro controller applications, niche products to be consumed locally, infrastructure things (farming water systems, wireless, your own shop with lots of capability, etc...), a small business of contract work, and others.

    Also there is the enabling factor.

    Let's say somebody does something simple, like do car mufflers or something. From there, they leverage that income to purchase gear they need to extend the business, or perhaps acquire new skills. That's what I was talking about, more than I was just build DARPA quality things.

  35. Mythbusters and such by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

    I think Mythbusters is a nice example of how hands on is a good thing when it comes to this sort of thing. I can see it being helpful to a lot of people.

    On the other hand personally, as much as I love to know how things work, I've never been one to like having to constantly jack with stuff... hardware or otherwise. Maybe I'm just lazy... but I'd rather read about it and do it on a computer if I can.

  36. Critical even for electricl engineers by MountainLogic · · Score: 1
    I am so tired of interviewing recently degreed EEs who know a lot of Verilog, but know nothing about electricity. I've stopped asking the "hard" questions and bring them up to the white board, draw a symbol for 110 VAC and a LED and ask them to show be what goes in between. I also ask a lot about what they have done themselves - not as part of a team. I'd love to have someone who grew-up hacking battle-bots or ham radio or make anything with their own hands - enclosure included, even if they did nothing but solder up some really cool stereo leads cables. At least they wold know which end of a soldering iron to grab. You'd be surprised at how many EEs do not know what comes out of the wall (110 VAC) let alone how to convert it to conditioned low voltage DC

    At this point there is a 65 year old wood worker I am trying to figure out how to hire over a bunch of MSEEs because he thinks like an engineer, solves problems in the real world and I believe I can teach him calculus and circuit design faster than I can teach the MSEEs that I'm seeing how to handle ESD, manufacturerability, the impacts of mechanical issues, PCB layout, or to even have enough common sense to include a FUSE in their power designs!!!!!

  37. Drawing by hand still exists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ("anonyomous" as I'm using, with permission, another posters handle!)
    A tangental comment about using your hands in this techno-world as the human tactile experience is of particular interest to me;

    Two years ago I started a schools teaching architects in Australaia freehand drawing called "Draw Like an Architect" (www.art-architecture.com.au). There are free YouTube vids I've made as well.