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Magpies Are Self-Aware

FireStormZ writes "Magpies can recognize themselves in a mirror, confounding the notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals. It had been thought only four species of apes, bottlenose dolphins, and Asian elephants shared the human ability to recognize their own bodies in a mirror. But German scientists reported on Tuesday that magpies, a species with a brain structure very different from mammals, could also identify themselves. It had been thought that the neocortex brain area found in mammals was crucial to self-recognition. Yet birds, which last shared a common ancestor with mammals 300 million years ago, don't have a neocortex, suggesting that higher cognitive skills can develop in other ways."

18 of 591 comments (clear)

  1. I knew magpies are quite "smart" by blind+biker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It has been known that magpies can solve various kinds of mechanical puzzles, much better than most (all?) other birds and even mammals. Now this isn't related to self-avareness, I guess, but it is quite interesting nonetheless.

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    1. Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" by kdemetter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not that much the brain size , as the brain size in proportion to the body. The bigger the body , the more brain mass is required to control the body.

      So a small creature with a relatively big head , could be as smart as a human being or more.

      A big creature with a small brain , would be completely dumb.

    2. Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" by jambox · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I studied neural nets at University (years ago, I'm sure it's move on a lot since then) and this seems a hopeful turn-up.

      Clearly, it'll be a very, very long time before there are computers with enough memory or power to model a mammalian brain. On the other hand, an avian brain seems to have extremely useful capabilities and is far, far more compact. Perhaps something useful can be inferred from the greater volume-to-power ratio of a magpie's grey matter?

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  2. Magpies are evil. by acehole · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In Australia, when its nesting season for Magpies they swoop people who go within their territory. Now I had to walk a fair way to catch a bus which just happened to intersect with a couple of magpies. One particular time I had one swoop, peck and draw some blood on some demon birdesque fly-by. I ran and took shelter at a nearby mall and waited about 5 minutes or so. I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.

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    1. Re:Magpies are evil. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 4, Interesting

      These stories are common, and my best guess is that they recognise individual people. Or at least, they think they do. I would guess that someone who they thought looked like you was at some stage a threat to them or their nest, maybe throwing rocks or otherwise exhibiting aggressive behaviour. After that, they'll start attacking them on sight to try to keep them away; and since you look similar enough, they treat you the same way. On the other hand, maybe it's even more general than that. Simply a way of walking, or particular shapes, or particularly colour combinations you wear, etc.

      A friend of mine with twins has noticed that they will taken an instant liking or dislike to certain people, presumably based purely on how they look or sound. The assumption being that the babies are okay with people who resemble their family members, but get uncomfortable around people that look "strange". Maybe it's something similar to that.

      We had magpies around for years because we used to feed them, and they'd nest in our yard sometimes and usually would nest pretty close by. In at least a decade of seeing them every day I've never had a problem with being swooped by them. The closest was one female magpie in particular that got very used to us over the years, and would make a habit of flying uncomfortably close in order to get attention. It was never aggressive though, merely a nuisance - like a dog that keeps hanging around right at your feet so you're always almost stepping on it. (It did that too.)

  3. grey parrots as well by fsiefken · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Lookup the intelligent grey parrots Alex or N'kisi, of which the intelligence has been compared to the intelligence of 6 year old human. Their intelligence might have evolved as a as "a consequence of their history of cooperative feeding as largely tree-dwelling birds in central Africa" (wikipedia: gray parrots). It might be that mirror neurons play an important role in the developmenet of intelligence: "A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another (especially conspecific) animal. Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were itself acting. These neurons have been directly observed in primates, and are believed to exist in humans and in some birds. In humans, brain activity consistent with mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex and the inferior parietal cortex." (wikipedia mirror neuron).

  4. Roadside magpies by kobotronic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Watching the roadkill feeding magpies cooly walk around just behind the white road lines, you can tell they have worked out a pretty solid theory for how cars move and that they understand how the cars are dangerous hazards but nevertheless predictable and avoidable. Other birds simply take flight in panic and some don't even recognize cars as a hazard - dumb turkeys and pheasants dumbly just obliviously waddle out in traffic.

    In Tokyo crows - corvid relatives of magpies - have been observed figuring out how to exploit the traffic signal cycles. The crows drop nuts in the path of the cars, in the middle of the pedestrian crossings, and patiently sit overhead waiting for the light to change so they can go down and have a look and pick up the nuts crushed by the car tires. Maybe these crows developed a theory of cars as practical and dependable "thing crushers" - producing crispy roadkill and other delicious crush jobs.

    Fascinating birds.

  5. Self Aware or Vanity Test? by Nymz · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I wouldn't rule out other creatures being self aware based on a visual sensory test, as a sense of self may be more strongly defined by other senses or perceptions. More likely the mirror test could tell us how preoccupied a creature is with their looks, so what would you call a creature that constantly looks for ways to compare itself with others?

    Mirror, mirror, on the wall,
    Who in this land is fairest of all?

  6. Birds are more intelligent then people think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Birds actually have more brains than people realise - literally.

    While they may not have a mammalian brain, they haven't been idle. Once they diverged from the rest of the raptor dinosaurs (or possibly before it, based on some evidence of mating/nesting habits), birds developed another brain 'layer' much like mammals did. This layer was not the same as the mammal one, but it was nonetheless more sophisticated than the reptilian brain stem we all inherit.

    Certainly, birds have shown remarkable intelligence in various studies.

    More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence

    "In recent years it was realized that certain birds have developed high intelligence entirely convergently from mammals such as humans."

  7. Problems with the mirror mark test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The mirror mark test is long known to be a very non-definitive method for testing for self awareness. For one, it is subject to the "Clever Hans" effect, so named after a horse who could allegedly perform simple addition. For two, it assumes that if the animal moves to view the mark better that it is aware that the mark is on its own body. By placing the mark on an obvious place on the body, movements for better viewing on another individual would be the same as movements for better viewing on your own body in a mirror. For three, it uses one type of control but not an important one. The control most often use is a dot on a nonobvious place on the body. For example, a black dot on black feathers. However the most important control would be to place a mark on another individual and see if the animal responds to that.

  8. Re:my dog... by nawcom · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

    Please understand what self-recognition in a mirror is. It has been known for a long time that dogs recognize their own scent, but with their black-and-white eyesight they have never shown any signs of recognizing themselves in a mirror, at least not in any social sense.

  9. Re:Crows, for one by SharpFang · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Don't give them all so much credit.

    My "automatic vision systems" teacher gave an interesting lecture about research on hens. Hens are awfully dumb. They have an instinctive reaction to images of weasels (panic/run) and to sound (tweeting) of small chickens ("herd/care"). The researchers made a model of a weasel that was making the chicken noise. Hens exposed to this experienced software failure: they would freeze and stop reacting to all other external signals/impulses until the chirping weasel was removed. :)

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  10. Re:Crows, for one by roaddemon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've always noticed that, despite their propensity for hanging around roadkill on busy highways, I've never seen a dead crow on the road.

  11. Re:Crows, for one by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The reason we believe that animals aren't conscious, and are like little automaton, is because it allows us to treat them with callous disregard. Humans who are ideologically unbound from natural sympathy and empathy and treat other animals with callous disregard achieve dominance over their environment.

    We do the same thing to the world itself. We are not OF this place, we are simply IN this place, temporarily, after which our soul will leave. So, we can treat the world itself with callous disregard, without consequence.

    We also do this to other humans. They don't have a soul, only we have a soul. Therefore, we do not belittle ourselves when we belittle them, because we are so much more than they are, while they are simply creatures of the muck, like animals.

    This ruthless perspective is an overwhelmingly effective tool. Therefore, it is the truth. The rest is just supporting mythology.

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    -1 Uncomfortable Truth
  12. Re:Crows, for one by mcvos · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember reading somewhere that they have quite advanced learning mechanisms. It is enough that one of them gets hit by a car and the rest who saw the incident know not to get hit by cars.

    In a pop-sci magazine I once saw a photo of a robin hovering over a pool, with a story about how it had learned to hunt like a kingfisher. It just sat there watching the kingfisher fish, and when it left, the robin tried the same technique, refining it as it figured out what worked and what didn't. For example, it had to hover over the deeper part of the water to chanse the fish to the shallower part.

    I find it very hard to believe, but the magazine is pretty reputable. Must have been the Einstein of robins.

  13. Re:Crows, for one by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    i think this is the same thing that made pigs, dogs and cows a lot more docile than their wild counterparts. selective breeding.

    dumb chickens are less likely to escape, wich is good for farmers.

    you don't have to make a complex chirping weasel model to brain-freeze a chicken. just hold its head close to a surface, then draw a straight line with a marker starting on its beak and extending about 30cm. the chicken will stay there hypnotized for a couple of minutes.

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  14. Re:Looping behaviour by egomaniac · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It was a wasp, if I remember correctly. The wasp's "program" was to drag its paralyzed prey to its burrow, go inside the burrow and make sure the coast was clear, then return to the prey and drag it into the burrow.

    But if the researchers moved the prey while the wasp was checking its burrow, it would reposition the prey and then check its burrow again. And it would repeat this as long as they kept moving it.

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  15. Re:Crows, for one by Fishead · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I can attest that this works, and you are the first person outside of my family that I have heard it from.

    I used to do that when I was giving the chore of separating the chicken from his head. I had an old beam that I would place the chicken on, stretch her neck out and draw a line away from her beak on some dirt on the beam. When you do that, the whole nervous system must be on pause because they don't even flap a wing after you cut their head off. Hmm... any biologists needing a research project?