Slashdot Mirror


Magpies Are Self-Aware

FireStormZ writes "Magpies can recognize themselves in a mirror, confounding the notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals. It had been thought only four species of apes, bottlenose dolphins, and Asian elephants shared the human ability to recognize their own bodies in a mirror. But German scientists reported on Tuesday that magpies, a species with a brain structure very different from mammals, could also identify themselves. It had been thought that the neocortex brain area found in mammals was crucial to self-recognition. Yet birds, which last shared a common ancestor with mammals 300 million years ago, don't have a neocortex, suggesting that higher cognitive skills can develop in other ways."

22 of 591 comments (clear)

  1. I knew magpies are quite "smart" by blind+biker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It has been known that magpies can solve various kinds of mechanical puzzles, much better than most (all?) other birds and even mammals. Now this isn't related to self-avareness, I guess, but it is quite interesting nonetheless.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" by mcvos · · Score: 5, Funny

      Several other birds are also known for pretty amazing intellectual feats (symbolic language is a pretty famous one), considering their brain size.

      It's probably because of those scary velociraptor genes.

    2. Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" by jambox · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I studied neural nets at University (years ago, I'm sure it's move on a lot since then) and this seems a hopeful turn-up.

      Clearly, it'll be a very, very long time before there are computers with enough memory or power to model a mammalian brain. On the other hand, an avian brain seems to have extremely useful capabilities and is far, far more compact. Perhaps something useful can be inferred from the greater volume-to-power ratio of a magpie's grey matter?

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    3. Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" by maglor_83 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I saw that on TV so it may be wrong.

      What?!

  2. Magpies are evil. by acehole · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In Australia, when its nesting season for Magpies they swoop people who go within their territory. Now I had to walk a fair way to catch a bus which just happened to intersect with a couple of magpies. One particular time I had one swoop, peck and draw some blood on some demon birdesque fly-by. I ran and took shelter at a nearby mall and waited about 5 minutes or so. I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
    1. Re:Magpies are evil. by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Funny

      I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.

      Tippi Hedren, is that you?

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  3. grey parrots as well by fsiefken · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Lookup the intelligent grey parrots Alex or N'kisi, of which the intelligence has been compared to the intelligence of 6 year old human. Their intelligence might have evolved as a as "a consequence of their history of cooperative feeding as largely tree-dwelling birds in central Africa" (wikipedia: gray parrots). It might be that mirror neurons play an important role in the developmenet of intelligence: "A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another (especially conspecific) animal. Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were itself acting. These neurons have been directly observed in primates, and are believed to exist in humans and in some birds. In humans, brain activity consistent with mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex and the inferior parietal cortex." (wikipedia mirror neuron).

  4. Excellent news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now we can punish the thieving bastards by putting them in prison instead of just shooting them.

  5. Crows, for one by dreamchaser · · Score: 5, Informative

    Crows have been observed making tools and using them.

    Birds are in general a lot smarter than we've given them credit for. It might be time to rethink the term 'bird brain'.

    1. Re:Crows, for one by SharpFang · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Don't give them all so much credit.

      My "automatic vision systems" teacher gave an interesting lecture about research on hens. Hens are awfully dumb. They have an instinctive reaction to images of weasels (panic/run) and to sound (tweeting) of small chickens ("herd/care"). The researchers made a model of a weasel that was making the chicken noise. Hens exposed to this experienced software failure: they would freeze and stop reacting to all other external signals/impulses until the chirping weasel was removed. :)

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    2. Re:Crows, for one by roaddemon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've always noticed that, despite their propensity for hanging around roadkill on busy highways, I've never seen a dead crow on the road.

    3. Re:Crows, for one by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The reason we believe that animals aren't conscious, and are like little automaton, is because it allows us to treat them with callous disregard. Humans who are ideologically unbound from natural sympathy and empathy and treat other animals with callous disregard achieve dominance over their environment.

      We do the same thing to the world itself. We are not OF this place, we are simply IN this place, temporarily, after which our soul will leave. So, we can treat the world itself with callous disregard, without consequence.

      We also do this to other humans. They don't have a soul, only we have a soul. Therefore, we do not belittle ourselves when we belittle them, because we are so much more than they are, while they are simply creatures of the muck, like animals.

      This ruthless perspective is an overwhelmingly effective tool. Therefore, it is the truth. The rest is just supporting mythology.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    4. Re:Crows, for one by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh the irony of your post. Especially your "mythology" when you mention the "soul" 3 times in your post. Pray tell, where does this "soul" of which you speak go after we leave this place?

      The point is that those tribes which have embraced this ideology have dominated the world, while those that did not were driven to extinction. It's evolution at work, just at a different level of granularity than what you can look at in a lab.

      The whole concept of a "soul" exists for the purpose of supporting the perspective that we are aliens in this place, that we will go home through some mystical means when our vehicle here (our body) wears out, and we can do anything we like to the place while we're here, because it's alien and inconsequential.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    5. Re:Crows, for one by TummyX · · Score: 5, Funny


      you don't have to make a complex chirping weasel model to brain-freeze a chicken. just hold its head close to a surface, then draw a straight line with a marker starting on its beak and extending about 30cm. the chicken will stay there hypnotized for a couple of minutes.

      The chicken could be stunned because it is thinking: "WTF? Why is he drawing a straight line from my beak and onto the ground. Weird ass humans".

    6. Re:Crows, for one by galoise · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Although i am a hard-line meat eating humanist, i do think he has a point, and you have not been able to contradict him.

      Apart from an species bias based on genetic composition, there's no clear cut criteria to define human (tool making and self awareness discarded). Now you propose, among others, i presume, city building, literature writing and movie directing as criteria. I have not done anything of the above, and apart from genetic similarity, i have no relation to anyone who has. Am I Human?

      To put it differently: Who built cities? was it the worker? his part in city building is no more complex than the role performed by the crow using a tool. Maybe the architect? then his humanity is tied to a capacity for abstract design, but then again, there are many homo sapiens of whom we do not know if they posses such capacity. Are they to be considered human too? and if we have no proof of their capacity, on what basis should they be considered human?

      In the end, the whole capacity-based point of view is flawed. It's impossible to determine now if any capacity chosen as criteria will not be replicated by some non-human agent in the future, be it because we discovered it or because we create it, so we end up with only two possible criteria: Genetics and Empathy. And both are arbitrary: In the strict sense, the concept of "species" is irrelevant form a genetic point of view, as argued by Dawkins in the Selfish Gene and the Extended Phenotype. And empathy is just a generalization and aggregation of a capacity based criteria, not to say it's subjective and not possible to state formally (e.g. some forms of disability produce repulsion, etc).

      All in all, i think this is no trivial matter...

      --
      entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
    7. Re:Crows, for one by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yah... and as I said to a girlfriend who once bemoaned the fact that my cat was good at catching birds.... when was the last time you saw a cat fly?

      Last night when I threw him across the room for scratching me?

  6. Odd experiment in self awareness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    A few years ago they tried the red dot on the forehead mirror test with Congressmen but got no reaction. As a control they tried taping a $100 bill to their foreheads and all quickly recognized the bill and reached for it. In an even more bizarre twist they seem to be able to find the bill even when blindfolded. They seemed to sniff the air so it was assumed they could smell the bill. Even stranger still when they taped a $1 bill to their foreheads it got no reaction even when they weren't blindfolded. The researchers concluded Congressmen were amazing creatures worthy of more study. As to them being self aware the tests were inconclusive.

  7. Roadside magpies by kobotronic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Watching the roadkill feeding magpies cooly walk around just behind the white road lines, you can tell they have worked out a pretty solid theory for how cars move and that they understand how the cars are dangerous hazards but nevertheless predictable and avoidable. Other birds simply take flight in panic and some don't even recognize cars as a hazard - dumb turkeys and pheasants dumbly just obliviously waddle out in traffic.

    In Tokyo crows - corvid relatives of magpies - have been observed figuring out how to exploit the traffic signal cycles. The crows drop nuts in the path of the cars, in the middle of the pedestrian crossings, and patiently sit overhead waiting for the light to change so they can go down and have a look and pick up the nuts crushed by the car tires. Maybe these crows developed a theory of cars as practical and dependable "thing crushers" - producing crispy roadkill and other delicious crush jobs.

    Fascinating birds.

    1. Re:Roadside magpies by jambox · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pheasants are one of the dumbest creatures imaginable. Ants have more nous. Are they a product of selective breeding like cows and sheep? If so, perhaps they've been bred for stupidity. Also politicians.

      I was walking in the forest near home once with my little boy when we saw a pheasant meandering along. When it saw us it froze and stood there stock still, presumably hoping we wouldn't notice it.

      When my son saw it, naturally (for a three year old) he charged straight towards it with his arms out, laughing. The pheasant looked pretty surprised and eventually bolted for the nearest bush. Hilariously, it just stuck it's head in while it's body and legs remained flat on the floor, completely exposed.

      Possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

      I think an animal should know it's in big trouble when it's easy meat for a human toddler.

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    2. Re:Roadside magpies by macshit · · Score: 5, Funny

      When my son saw it, naturally (for a three year old) he charged straight towards it with his arms out, laughing. The pheasant looked pretty surprised and eventually bolted for the nearest bush. Hilariously, it just stuck it's head in while it's body and legs remained flat on the floor, completely exposed. Possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

      Perhaps the rest of the peasants were on the other side of the bush.... waiting....

      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
  8. Birds are more intelligent then people think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Birds actually have more brains than people realise - literally.

    While they may not have a mammalian brain, they haven't been idle. Once they diverged from the rest of the raptor dinosaurs (or possibly before it, based on some evidence of mating/nesting habits), birds developed another brain 'layer' much like mammals did. This layer was not the same as the mammal one, but it was nonetheless more sophisticated than the reptilian brain stem we all inherit.

    Certainly, birds have shown remarkable intelligence in various studies.

    More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence

    "In recent years it was realized that certain birds have developed high intelligence entirely convergently from mammals such as humans."

  9. Re:my dog... by nawcom · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

    Please understand what self-recognition in a mirror is. It has been known for a long time that dogs recognize their own scent, but with their black-and-white eyesight they have never shown any signs of recognizing themselves in a mirror, at least not in any social sense.