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Nuclear Decay May Vary With Earth-Sun Distance

KentuckyFC writes "We've long thought that nuclear decay rates are constant regardless of ambient conditions (except in a few special cases where beta decay can be influenced by powerful electric fields). So that makes it hard to explain two puzzling experiments from the 1980s that found periodic variations over many years in the decay rates of silicon-32 and radium-226. Now a new analysis of the raw data says that changes in the decay rate are synchronized with each other and with Earth's distance from the sun. The physicists behind this work offer two theories to explain why this might be happening (abstract). First, some theorists think the sun produces a field that changes the value of the fine structure constant on Earth as its distance from the sun varies. That would certainly affect the rate of nuclear decay. Another idea is that the effect is caused by some kind of interaction with the neutrino flux from the sun's interior which also varies with distance. Take your pick. What makes the whole story even more intriguing is that for years physicists have disagreed over the decay rates of several isotopes such as titanium-44, silicon-32, and cesium-137. Perhaps they took their data at different times of the year?"

17 of 418 comments (clear)

  1. Carbon Dating by Jaysyn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does this have any ramifications for carbon dating?

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    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Carbon Dating by kmac06 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also, it is only these two isotopes that are mentioned, presumably because most other isotopes tested do not have this sort of periodic effect.

      I stand corrected! From the paper:

      Although there are hundreds of potentially useful nuclides whose half-lives have been measured, the data from many of the experiments we examined were generally not useful, most often because data were not acquired continuously over sufficiently long time periods.

      So the possible ramifications of this increase!

    2. Re:Carbon Dating by Bob-taro · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Also, it is only these two isotopes that are mentioned, presumably because most other isotopes tested do not have this sort of periodic effect.

      I wouldn't presume that. The very thing that makes this so interesting is that "the modulations are synchronised with each other and with Earth's distance from the sun." To me, that makes it likely to be a general effect on all radioactive materials. I don't know if this will lead to anything that supports a young earth theory, but it'll be interesting to see what comes from it. The article also mentions:

      It turns out, that the notion of that nuclear decay rates are constant has been under attack for some time. In 2006, Jenkins says the decay rate of manganese-54 in their lab decreased dramtically during a solar flare on 13 December.

      This is a good example of how many holes there might be in our theories about the universe. We have been making measurements for a few 1000 years in one solar system (mostly just on one planet) and things that we don't see changing, like radioactive decay rates, we consider constant. It's exciting to think how much more there may still be to discover.

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      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    3. Re:Carbon Dating by es330td · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm more interested to know if this has any impact on nuclear waste. If decay can be sped up artificially one of the biggest objection points against widescale adoption of nuclear power in the US goes away.

    4. Re:Carbon Dating by fatphil · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Take an old vinyl record. Punch a new hole just off-centre. Play the record. Sometimes it's too high pitched (fast) and sometimes it's too low pitched (slow). Yet the song still takes the same length of time to play.

      I.e. no.

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    5. Re:Carbon Dating by Scott+Carnahan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It does take a very long time for this to happen - geologic time - but even a "long time" is not forever.

      The idea that a diamond will decay into graphite in geologic time is a popular fiction. The activation energy barrier for the diamond-graphite transition is high enough that substantial decay at STP will take far longer than the Earth will last, and the time scale is therefore not geologic. Several samples of diamond have been found that crystallized before the formation of the solar system, and some carbonados exhibit Xenon isotope concentrations in inclusions that suggest that they formed in distant supernovas and fell to earth.

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  2. How To Test It by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First, some theorists think the sun produces a field that changes the value of the fine structure constant on Earth as its distance from the sun varies. That would certainly affect the rate of nuclear decay. Another idea is that the effect is caused by some kind of interaction with the neutrino flux from the sun's interior which also varies with distance. Take your pick.

    You left out the best part of the paper, where they propose how to test these theories:

    These conclusions can be tested in a number of ways. In addition to repeating long-term decay measurements on Earth, measurements on radioactive samples carried aboard spacecraft to other planets would be very useful since the sample-Sun distance would then vary over a much wider range. The neutrino flux hypothesis might also be tested using samples placed in the neutrino flux produced by nuclear reactors.

    Sounds like we could test the latter relatively easily.

    Also, Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere H. Jenkins!!!

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  3. Pioneer Anomaly by andyh3930 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Could this be the cause of the Pioneer Anomaly ?

  4. Cool! by kmac06 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If this turns out to be true, and not a product of some experimental error, it sounds like it could lead to some very interesting new theories. If it's due to neutrino flux, that indicates neutrinos interact much more strongly than previously thought.

  5. Fine structure constant by kmac06 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    One possible explanation proposed in this paper is:

    In their theory, the Sun produces a scalar field which would modulate the terrestrial value of the electromagnetic fine structure constant EM.

    The fine structure constant (about 1/137) has been measured to a whopping 10 significant digits, one of the most precisely measure physical constants. If there is a seasonal variation enough to influence decay rates by .1%, wouldn't this show up in different experiments measuring the fine structure constant?

    1. Re:Fine structure constant by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They mention that in the paper. They suggest modifying the electron-proton mass ratio as well as the electromagnetic interaction strength. So we might find out what's going on on October 10.

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      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
  6. Synchronized to r^2, not r by Muad'Dave · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This graph seems to indicate that the correlation is between the decay rate and the radius of Earth's orbit squared, not just r.

    Could it be that the correlation between decay rates is with Earth's orbital velocity, acceleration, or dTheta/dT (rate of change of the Earth/Sun vector due to Earth's elliptical orbit)?

    Additionally, there seems to be a phase shift between peak r^2 and peak decay rates with the decay rate peak seemingly correlated with our peak acceleration toward the sun.

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  7. Engineering Ramifications? by Zenaku · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a good example of how many holes there might be in our theories about the universe. We have been making measurements for a few 1000 years in one solar system (mostly just on one planet) and things that we don't see changing, like radioactive decay rates, we consider constant. It's exciting to think how much more there may still be to discover.

    This makes me wonder about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generatorpower sources on board the Voyager spacecraft, as they are based on the decay of radioactive material. Has our earth-centric understanding of the universe led us to build probes designed to push the boundaries of the solar system and continue into interstellar space, that will gradually lose power the further they get from the sun?

    Whoops.

    --
    If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    1. Re:Engineering Ramifications? by dpilot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry, doesn't wash. The probes are not in powered flight, they're simple ballistic projectiles. No ion engines at work, which might show the effects you suggest.

      It would clearly be interesting to construct a probe to test this effect using a greater distance that the difference between the Earth's perihelion and apihelion

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  8. One possible explanation by elrond2003 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As someone who made the equipment that the scientist probably used to do the counting, I have one possible explanation. Most Multichannel Analyzers (MCAs) of the time used a line clock to determine the time. They assume that the power company delivered 60Hz power (or 50 Hz in Europe), This frequency was almost never precise but varied by .1 to .2% (one plant where I measured the frequency put out 58.8Hz for example, a real mess for us) from time to time. A systemic variation due to power loads (heating in winter/ AC in summer) could easily bias the power frequency by about the right amount with the right periodicity. The universe might well be safe.

  9. Everything she touches, / Changes. by mysticgoat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    TFA's frame of reference is the Earth's orbit about the Sun, and reports a small but significant correlation between aphelion - perihelion and decay rates of some radioactive nuclides. TFA suggests that the 4% change between Earth's closest approach to the Sun and its most distant point is a possible cause for the change in decay rates.

    When the frame of reference is expanded to galactic distances, we find that Earth's aphelion point is coincidentally very close to a line drawn from the Sun to the center of the galactic core. So it could also be that some shielding or suppressive effect of the Sun's local environment is reducing decay rates when the Earth is behind the Sun relative to the galactic core.

    Proposed hypothesis: the changes in radioactive decay rates are related in an unknown fashion to the annual changes in the geometry of the Earth - Sun - galactic core.

    This could probably be ruled out with a couple of tests of the existing data:

    Aphelion occurs on Jan 4, while Earth's fullest exposure to any presumed galactic core influence occurs on Dec 17. Does the data suggest that increased activity centers around aphelion, or 18 days earlier?

    If TFA's heliocentric model is correct, the change in rates of decay from month to month will be a smooth sinusoidal curve over the course of the year. But if the galactic core is involved, the changes in rates of decay will depart from this since the ecliptic does not parallel the galactic plane, and the degree of the Earth's "exposure" to galactic core will vary in a more complex way. Does the data support either of these conjectures?

    I'm not going to cite my references here: they would be a distraction. Key words for google: aphelion, perihelion, solstice, galactic core, "plane of the ecliptic", "galactic plane". Um, a quick review of high school trigonometry might be useful, too.

    Kudos to all the researchers and lab assistants who contributed to this work. It sounds like years of seemingly mindless drudge data collection went into this database. Yet the results are stunning: something Out There is affecting "constants" that we thought were intrinsic and immutable. That changes things. That changes everything.

  10. Diamonds burn? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Trivia: Believe it or not, I once asked a chemist, who studied diamonds, the temperature at which they burned. His reply was that they didn't. Instead, according to him, at about 2000 F they break down into graphite and then the graphite burns.