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Microsoft Concedes Vista Launch Problems

notdagreatbrain writes "Maximum PC just posted a lengthy feature looking back at the myriad problems that went into Microsoft's 6 billion dollar failure of the Vista launch. Aside from running benchmarks comparing Vista at launch how its performing now, they also found a Microsoft exec who was willing to speak frankly about Vista. The Microsoft source blamed bad drivers from GPU companies and printer companies for the majority of Vista's early stability problems and described User Account Control as poorly implemented but defended it as necessary for the continued health of the Windows platform. He assailed OEM system builders for including bad, buggy, or just plain useless apps on their machines in exchange for a few bucks on the back end. Finally he conceded that Apple appeals to more and more consumers because the hardware is slick, the price is OK, and Apple doesn't annoy its customers (or allow third parties to)."

28 of 594 comments (clear)

  1. So...... by Anachragnome · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He blamed everyone but Microsoft?

    Why does that not surprise me?

    1. Re:So...... by jacksinn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh its totally not Microsoft's fault! I mean, doesn't everyone have access to the source so we can learn from it and create better software and drivers?

      --
      Life==Jeopardy. All the answers are right in front us - the hard part is coming up with the correct question.
    2. Re:So...... by BronsCon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No, he admitted that UAC was poorly implemented.

      Microsoft has no control over the shit quality of drivers released by hardware manufacturers.

      They have no control over the shit quality of apps loaded by OEMs.

      I can personally attest that everything he said is true. I own an Acer laptop, which ran like bloody hell with the OEM shartware installed. I also own an HP laptop, which ran like bloody hell with the OEM shartware installed. Upon formatting both drives, partitioning them more sanely and reinstalling Vista (Home Premium) on both, using the included Anytime Upgrade (or Reinstall) DVD, Vista ran wonderfully.

      I still installed Kubuntu on both. Windows is nice to have around if you ever need it (BIOS updates on the HP, or calling for tech support on either machine, for example) but really not right for daily use for me.

      The Acer has Intel graphics. All is good and will with Vista there.

      I've had the HP (ok, it was originally a Compaq, which they warranty-replaced with a better HP model when it completely failed -- though both have the same video hardware) for a year and a half, now. For the first 9 months, the nVidia drivers were crashing the damn thing fairly regularly. It wasn't until 9 months ago that they released a driver that didn't crash this laptop.

      I also run a desktop, which I use for music production, running Windows-only software (it runs in winE, but not as a fully functional application). I run Vista Ultimate (free from MS for participating in a "spyware" program, which I installed on a laptop which was used only for YouTube and other cutesy flash crap) on this machine. I've had both ATI and nVidia cards in this machine. The ATI still doesn't have a workable driver. The nVidia, same as with the HP laptop, no good driver until 9mo ago.

      I purchased an HP printer for that desktop system. It literally took me a week to get the damned thing to install.

      Other than that, I actually like Vista Ultimate. Now that I have stable video drivers and the printer actually works, neither of which were Microsoft's fault, it's wonderful. Being a retail install, it never had any OEM shartware installed on it.

      Runs smooth and quick.

      And yes, UAC is poorly implemented. That's Microsoft's fault, all the freaking way.

      $0.02 from a full-time Linux user and fanboi. Vista has its place, even in my home. My HTPC runs Linux, though; the DRM in Vista still scares me.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    3. Re:So...... by causality · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft has no control over the shit quality of drivers released by hardware manufacturers.

      I'm not sure I would go so far as to say they have zero control over that situation. Apple would not be a fair comparison since they control both the hardware and the software. So, I have to compare the Windows approach to the Linux approach since I am most familiar with it.

      With the one exception of the nVidia proprietary driver (which I use over the open-source driver for performance reasons, not stability reasons), every last driver on my machine came with the kernel. I don't need to trust the quality of anything produced by any hardware manufacturer. I can use drivers that I know will work and that I know will be extremely stable. I'm sure someone out there is using some strange hardware combination and this is his cue to pipe up that this was not his experience, but I believe the vast majority of desktop Linux users can say the same thing. The Windows approach is demonstrably inferior in this case, and I just don't believe that Microsoft is the pitiful helpless victim that's powerless to change this.

      They have no control over the shit quality of apps loaded by OEMs.

      That certainly is true, but then, why should so many user applications have the ability to affect the rest of the operating system? Either they don't and whether they are shit quality is moot, or they do and this is rightfully considered a shortcoming in the overall design of Windows. I don't see any third options here.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    4. Re:So...... by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That certainly is true, but then, why should so many user applications have the ability to affect the rest of the operating system? Either they don't and whether they are shit quality is moot, or they do and this is rightfully considered a shortcoming in the overall design of Windows. I don't see any third options here.

      I call trolling. If I install an app on any OS which integrates itself into the browser, runs as a background task consuming enormous amounts of RAM and network bandwidth and otherwise misbehaves, it's going to make the experience shitty. And no, this isn't a "shortcoming in the overall design." Any app needs to be allowed to do everything I just described (for RAM and CPU, see Photoshop, for network usage, see BitTorrent, etc.). Blaming MS for vendors loading shitty software onto a machine and claiming its a design flaw is bullshit.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
    5. Re:So...... by JebusIsLord · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm gonna agree, with the additional statement that Vista is wonderful AFTER I upgrade my RAM from 2GB to 4GB. Vista Ultimate (x64) is a pretty decent upgrade from XP, and I wouldn't consider going back.

      (disclaimer: I also have a macbook and a linux server. All have their drawbacks, all have their strengths. I'm just comparing Vista to XP here.)

      --
      Jeremy
    6. Re:So...... by Belial6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They have no control over the shit quality of apps loaded by OEMs.

      I disagree. The hardware vendors are allowed to sell modified "OEM" Windows disks because MS chooses to let them. While technically, they might not be able to stop the loading of other software, they certainly could require that a pristine off the shelf copy of windows be included with the system, and all other software come on a different disk instead of encouraging vendors to ship heavily modified versions of their software so that the end consumer has no way of doing a clean install.

    7. Re:So...... by rmcd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The hell Microsoft doesn't have control over this. This is Microsoft's fault and it is rewriting history and denying the obvious to say otherwise.

      Let's start with the fact that Microsoft execs overrode *internal* objections to shipping Vista, and they consciously certified marginal Intel systems as "vista-ready" when they knew they weren't. There's no reason they couldn't have made more of a push to have drivers ready, and they could have publicly identified the hardware that was incompatible. They knew exactly what they were doing, and they made a deliberate decision to push the new OS onto platforms for which it wasn't appropriate, and before the appropriate drivers existed.

      What about the systems loaded with crapola? Microsoft has been bullying systems manufacturers for years. Microsoft could have required that in order to get the cheap wholesale price, the systems makers had to distribute their malware some other way (e.g., a rebate coupon if you run a CD and install all the crap). This issue simply wasn't on Microsoft's radar screen. It wasn't on their radar screen because the home user is not their target market. They care about 2000+ seat enterprise installations, and those folks buy machines that are built to order and precertified, and don't have the garbage software and buggy drivers.

      Microsoft missed several things this time around, including the netbook boom (oops, guess we can't kill XP), the google/apple boom (turns out that home users now value reliability, simplicity, design, and enterprise capabilities, such as synchronized calendars, outside of the enterprise), and the internet's capability to severely punish arrogance and incompetence. They didn't realize that a lousy home experience was going to spill back into the enterprise.

      This is a company that has $18 billion in annual profit on $60 billion in annual sales. They have the resources to get stuff done properly. What they do not have these days is competent management. They are on the way down. They are firmly ensconced in the corporate world, it will take a long time, but the direction is finally clear. I wish they were on the way up and making our computing lives better, but they aren't.

    8. Re:So...... by bernywork · · Score: 5, Informative

      I am not usually one for hacking into MS, I have worked with a number of businesses that have been quite successful using their software. On this occasion though, I have to call bullshit. The fact of the matter remains that a number of these drivers did pass WHQL (Windows Hardware Quality Labs) testing. The fact that MS *SIGNED* the steaming brown stuff de-values the program considerably.

      Going back to NT4 and previous versions, there was MAJOR issues with quality of drivers, I know certain Xircom cards which would only work with very specific driver configurations as we found out places where the driver was hard coded to use specific ports and IRQs. This all changed with Windows 2000 and signed drivers.

      Microsoft should have been harder in their WHQL driver certification for Vista. I know Microsoft only has a finite amount of resources, but they should have known that people were having trouble getting drivers signed and my outsider (un-informed) view is that they should have made more of an effort to work with the OEMs for drivers to work on day 1.

      --
      Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
    9. Re:So...... by sjf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft has no control over the shit quality of drivers released by hardware manufacturers.

      Then again, TFA admits that Apple does a better job preventing third parties from giving the user a poor experience.

      I think that there is some truth to this. In the case of the kernel, Apple's IOKit uses embedded C++. For ubiquitous drivers, this is an absolute godsend, most of the work of a driver is already done for you. Writing a driver largely consists of just writing the details that are specific to your device. It's Apple's job to build the framework for devices of your class, not yours.

      Secondly, Apple's definition of a real time operating system is subtle, but significant: it's difficult to do things in kernel mode that will degrade user mode (application) experience. It's a pain in the ass sometimes: doing work on a true primary hardware interrupt is hard to achieve, but there are few devices that really need this. The upshot is that a "badly" written driver is unlikely to stop iTunes from playing back media.

      Thirdly, certain classes of driver can be entirely user mode. This is a good thing !

      Apple's approach is not perfect, if you need real time performance in the kernel then it's truly hard work, and there's little documentation to support you. Thankfully, such drivers are not common. (I worked on drivers for broadcast video editing and effects, IOKit doesn't provide a base class to derive such drivers from !)

      My point is not (just) fanboiism. I believe that there is a lot that can be done in architecting an API to encourage well behaved drivers, and other code. Microsoft could do something about it. It would just take dumping an entire driver model and replacing it something better though.

    10. Re:So...... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

      I hear the Franco-Swiss border is nice this time of year... Maybe that would be a good place?

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    11. Re:So...... by syousef · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft has no control over the shit quality of drivers released by hardware manufacturers.

      Of course this had nothing to do with code maturity and putting yet another burden on hardware manufacturers by changing to a new driver model yet again. (How many times was that in the last 2 decades!? DOS->Win95->Win98->WinXP->Vista).

      I'd argue this man is incompetent because he doesn't understand that the first version of anything isn't going to be rock solid and stable. If you can't take that into account you have no business writing a new OS. Didn't Microsoft have driver certification programs? In fact don't drivers have to be signed? What the fuck happened to that?

      I purchased an HP printer for that desktop system. It literally took me a week to get the damned thing to install.

      Hang on isn't this the same company that has solid and stable XP drivers? Doesn't that say something? Perhaps Vista drivers are harder to write. Perhaps they're just not mature yet. However automatically blaming HP is unfair. It MIGHT be fair it if were just one company or a small group, but MOST companies had trouble. THAT to me suggests the problem IS in fact Vista.

      How about Vista's own networking and file system drivers? Are they someone else's fault too? Because early on you'd be lucky to get a large file transfer not to just hang and estimate the age of the universe as when the file copy will finish.

      Other than that, I actually like Vista Ultimate

      Good for you. Hope you enjoy the bloat, the pretty effects and having your rights restricted left right and center? Oh and the popups. Can't forget the popups.

      Vista has exactly 1 thing that I want in XP, and only if you go 64 bit. That is it allows addressing memory larger than 4GB. I am going to hold out on XP for as long as I can, then I'll probably move to Linux because I'll have lost the one thing I truly can't replace on XP - gaming. Gaming on Vista is shite compared to XP and will be for the forseeable future (with the exception of a handful of really hardware intensive resource hogging DirectX 10 games so encumbered with DRM I won't touch them anyway).

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    12. Re:So...... by registrar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I could write some REALLY shitty software for linux that eats up all your resources unnecessarily and bogs down the system. How is that Canonical's or Redhat's fault?

      Nothing personal, but this thread has gotten ridiculous, based on the premise that Microsoft has no power over third party drivers or applications. The simple fact is that the competition (Redhat, Apple, Canonical, take your pick) does have control, and Microsoft should have it, they suffer rightly for not having it, and they don't suffer enough!

      If Redhat allowed their brand to be associated with your software, then they would deserve what they get. Instead, Redhat tightly controls what can be associated with "Redhat Linux" and they benefit from it.

      The problem is not a technical one. Windows is largely technically excellent software, and it's correct that bad applications will always be able to stuff up good systems. MS exploits user ignorance, confusing the line between "Windows" "MS application" "other application" and "computer." Redhat on the other hand, is very clearly clear about what is and is not their responsibility. Also, I assume Microsoft could exert tighter control over what gets bundled with Windows if they were not a monopoly. Whether the reasons are legal or practical, it just so happens that Windows sucks partly because it is a monopoly---those reasons just don't apply to the competition.

      Another aspect of the problem is partly technical, partly greed: Microsoft cannot and will not proper basic installation disc with each machine. As a result, customers cannot easily bypass the OEM applications. Again, the competition manages to work through the problem.

      Now for the real rant. Slashbots are too focused on technical problems. The problem with Windows is mostly not technical but social. Microsoft is ultimately responsible for the quality of the apps installed by OEMs, and excusing them on technical grounds clarifies nothing. Learn from RMS! He was a technical kind of guy who identified that the technical problems had underlying social causes, and required a social (legal) fix. And it worked.

      Whether your mission in life is to tear down Microsoft, to be a good programmer or helpdesk operator, to cure cancer, or to write insightful comments, you will not get far if you focus on technical fixes to social problems.

    13. Re:So...... by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Have you tried Ctrl-Alt-Backspace? (Usually resets X.) Or you could try Ctrl-Alt-F1 to get a text console, and use commands like 'top' to see which process is clogging things up and kill it.... (Ctrl-Alt-F6/F7/something will switch back to X), or just try something like 'sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart'. If you're in a position to, you could use another computer to ssh into the machine and do something similar. If you can type a command somewhere within the gui, like an xterm or a konsole, you could try running 'xkill' and then click the mouse on whatever window appears to be causing the problem. (This will kill the process in control of that window.)

      And yet, despite this power, we wonder why Linux on the desktop has never really taken off ...

    14. Re:So...... by Simon+Rowe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Similarly, the reason your linux drivers work so well is that linux hasn't had the ginormous revamp that the win32 kernel just underwent.

      The Linux driver APIs are in a constant state of flux, in fact people that insist on shipping drivers without source are always whining for a fixed binary API. Linux drivers are generally more reliable because they're written and maintained by people who can program rather than thrown together my a h/w engineer as an afterthought.

  2. The RAM error by yelvington · · Score: 5, Informative

    TFA misses a major misstep. Microsoft allowed Vista to be shipped on hardware that just wasn't up to the task. Vista is unusable with less than a gig of memory, but chain stores were flooded with laptops equipped with "only" 512MB. This gave new users a terrible experience. "First boot" of a new laptop took half an hour. No application, not even Solitaire, would run without freezing.

    Two of my family members had Vista laptops ... for a few hours, anyway, until I installed Ubuntu. Performance problems all went away after that.

  3. Re:Don't you dare blame the GPU/Printer companies! by Idiomatick · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes blame printer drivers. Crappiest bloated pieces of shit ever to be coded. Print drivers on modern printers should be under 5MB MAXIMUM. Often print drivers on modern 5in1 w/es are in excess of 200MB! holy god, even taking the bullshit ap and ui they needlessly tacked on how could it have gotten that bloated. Even trying to make the program needlessly huge the compiler would probably compress it to less than anything i could code.

  4. Appe Doesn't Annoy Its Customers? by Unoti · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apple doesn't annoy its customers (or allow third parties to)

    AT&T. Locked iPhones. Can't do anything not officially blessed with your iPhone unless you unlock it. Can't register your iPhone with anyone other than AT&T. iTunes is loaded with DRM, and QuickTime is pretty annoying... I do love Apple, but seriously, they constantly flirt with annoying their customers far more than most companies.

    1. Re:Appe Doesn't Annoy Its Customers? by Tim+C · · Score: 5, Informative

      iTunes is loaded with DRM

      On Windows at least, it also installs:

      1) an auto-start AppleMobileDeviceService service
      2) an auto-start iPodService service
      3) an auto-start iTunesHelper application
      4) Bonjour as an auto-start service
      5) MobileMe

      Additionally, it defaults to installing the AppleUpdate service, which - when it finds updates - defaults to installing Safari alongside the updates.

      Just to listen to music?

  5. Re:Top of the line? by AndyCR · · Score: 5, Informative

    Perhaps not "top of the line", but they are certainly more powerful than the average $500 laptop sold at CompUSA - and let's face it, when faced with a $500 laptop and a $1000 laptop people will buy the $500 one. If it says it runs Vista, it should run it well - it may not be an excellent machine, but an operating system shouldn't be the most demanding thing people use. Said $500 laptop probably contains 1GB of ram if you're lucky.

    I speak from experience, as someone who owns a DV9000. I ordered it with 1GB of ram to max out the CPU specs, knowing I would upgrade the ram later. Vista ran very very slowly. I upped it to 1.5GB and it runs just fine. Ram makes all the difference with Vista, even though it shouldn't. Say all you want about all the ram usage being pre-caching - if it were just pre-caching, it wouldn't have been slow with twice the ram it "needs", and it wouldn't have sped up dramatically just by adding half a gig more space used only for precaching. If that's their idea of speeding up applicaiton loading with pre-caching, I'd rather go back to the XP way of things.

    The "Mojave Experiment" method is simple: get a person who says Vista is slow (because it is, on their machine), sit them in front of a computer with twice the ram theirs has, and get them to do a recorded double-take at how fast said machine is running Vista. Then they go home filled with excitement ready to prove themselves wrong on how slow Vista is and realize their copy of Vista isn't as fast as the Vista they used and wonder what the heck the testers did (remember, these are the kinds of people who read "Word for Dummies" - any person with a clue about technology would be filtered out in a screening process or have his response never aired).

    I say all this as someone who uses Windows for daily development without much issue. I don't hate Windows. I do, however, hate dishonesty, whether express or implied, as the lawyers would say.

    --
    If there's anyone I hate more than stupid people, it's intellectuals.
  6. Bad drivers? by stm2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So why their certified those faulty drivers?
    Most drivers carry the log "Made for Vista" with digital signature provided by MS. That is supposed to have some QA, isn't it?

    --
    DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
  7. Re:First Godwin! by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's not well known, but the officers uniforms were actually designed by Hugo Boss, that's why they look sharp.

  8. Re:Mac os x is so much better that hack it to run by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 5, Funny

    He couldn't be German. His sentence at the end does not his verbs have.

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  9. MS did contribute to shit drivers by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 5, Insightful
    MS should have set up a far better defined driver architecture than they did. Even better they should have provided a backward compatibility mode for existing drivers. If ndiswrapper can support (some) Windows drivers under Linux, then it should have been a simple matter to support XP drivers under Vista.

    No, instead MS adopted their normal "fuck you all" attitude and forced a new, ill conceived driver model onto the IHVs.

    Sure, XP driver support would probably not been a good long term solution, but it would have been a good idea for a year or two: enough time to make the transition slicker.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  10. Re:They're playing the vista commerical now.. by kesuki · · Score: 5, Funny

    Or Churros, don't forget the churros.

    Delicious.

  11. Re:First Godwin! by frosty_tsm · · Score: 5, Informative

    Because I wanted to be certain, I looked on Wikipedia.

    Specifically, it says the SS uniforms and the Hitler Youth uniforms.

  12. Not that helpful by TheLink · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what the Unix people like to say all the time, but it's not very helpful.

    AFAIK for Desktop users there's very little difference between rebooting and restarting X.

    They lose all their unsaved work - since most of it is still in apps in X. And the last I checked if you restart X, the apps die. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

    Sure it's not a big problem for people who just use X as an interface to ssh and screen, and for some browsing. But I heard there's this push for "Desktop".

    In the old days Windows 95 ran on MSDOS, if it hung, even if you could get it to exit to dos and then you type win to start it back up, it's still not very helpful to most people.

    --
  13. Re:Mac os x is so much better that hack it to run by bytta · · Score: 5, Funny

    He couldn't be German. His sentence at the end does not his verbs have.

    Does that mean Yoda was a Nazi?