Slashdot Mirror
EFF Sues NSA, President Bush, and VP Cheney
VisualE writes "The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) will file a lawsuit against the National Security Agency (NSA) and other government agencies today on behalf of AT&T customers to stop the illegal, unconstitutional, and ongoing dragnet surveillance of their communications and communications records.
The five individual plaintiffs are also suing President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Cheney's chief of staff David Addington, former Attorney General and White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales and other individuals who ordered or participated in the warrantless domestic surveillance."
when you can't legally get at the evidence?
The plaintiff's need to prove they were harmed in some way. And proving they were harmed will require divulging state secrets.
Case dismissed.
That's just what they want you to think.
Either way, they're pretty tenacious and well known, they may even have as much or more public recognition by now than the ACLU.
Even if they lose this one (or don't entirely get their case), they'll still win. They've backed up some significant cases and have become well known for it, and this will only make them more popular.
In some eyes, the EFF, for what they stand for, may never be wrong, and they could quickly turn into a religion of legal sorts. Especially considering that the targets, the "general unpopular undoers of society", have already had sights set on them many times and even though the law assumes they're in the right or not so in the wrong, they're pariahs and nothing they can do can prove to the people they're not bad guys.
There's a lot of 'little guys' that have gotten hurt by the unfairness of the law when they're weighed against corporations, and it's really building up. The EFF could be one of many outlets for a meta-ideology when people really do start fighting back.
Anyways, I'm just saying this so I can say "Holy shit, I was right?!" later if it really turns out that way.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
They don't have anywhere near the recognition outside of the IT industry that the ACLU has.
Most of what you wrote about the EFF applies to the ACLU, also.
If they are redundantly making a case, they ought to be careful about it - the ACLU and EFF should certainly be cooperative towards each other, IMO.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Easy, they just won't do anything about it, no one will report it, no one will care, and life will continue as it always does.
We will never hear of the story again, mark my words.
The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
First of all, that nice long list of cases does not disprove my assertion, that they lost plenty of cases.
Don't be throwin stones from your glass house - your assertion of the unnumbered 'plenty' aint shit without a cite.
At least he did better in one post than you have in two.
That list doesn't have their losses I notice.
Ah, so it is up to him to prove your point too? No wonder lawyers have such a piss poor rep.
There is a suggestion in what you write that "reverse engineering ... is infringement" because we lost the case. In cases such as these, there was a plaintiff declaring this to be so. This seems to imply that the defendants might have won had we not gotten involved, which is surely not not true. We may have wasted resources, of course.
But I hope nobody thinks you can win them all. If you win them all, you are in fact not at the edge, and we try to only take cases on the edge. In spite of that, we win a lot.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Forgot to add: The Blizzard case did not rule that reverse engineering is infringement. Rather, it hinged on whether they could enforce a "no reverse engineering" cause in the click-to-agree EULA on the games. We're going to see a lot more cases in the future (not just involving EFF) about what clauses in click-to-agree contracts are valid, I think I can predict.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
They don't have anywhere near the recognition outside of the IT industry that the ACLU has.
No they don't, but have they started to get a reputation in the legal industry? The reason I ask (and hope that somebody can answer) is because the ACLU has become publicly known more because of how long it's been around than its recent cases. I imagine that the EFF could be in the position that the ACLU was in a few decades ago. I imagine that the legal professionals, who watch cases more closely and see patterns much sooner than the public would, might see the EFF as an up and coming organization.
Either way, I sincerely hope that they win this case. Our civil liberties have been eroded enough since 9/11, thank you very much, and I for one wouldn't mind a few legal cases putting the fear of constitutional restrictions into the heart of our next president.
You are incorrect. Calder V. Bull deals with Article 1 Section 10 which deals with STATES. Article 1 Section 9 deals with CONGRESS of the US.
Of course that doesn't stop any court, including the supreme from changing the meaning of words in the constitution.
Don't you remember when Scalia recently went on ABC saying that not all torture is cruel and unusual punishment?
If you don't think that giving retroactive immunity to corporations who spied on American citizens wasn't what the framers had in mind when they wrote in Article 1 Section 9, "No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." you must be smoking something.
Please go read what Thomas Jefferson had to say about the judicial branch and maybe you'll be able to get a somewhat clearer picture.
Also remember that the supreme court has ruled that how much wheat you can grow on your own land is "interstate commerce" and can be regulated by congress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
Obama taught constitutional law for 12 years, and is a staunch supporter of civil liberties. Beyond that, he just seems like a pretty reasonable, thoughtful person.
I've heard a lot of outcry, particularly on slashdot, that he voted for telecom immunity. But as the grandparent noted, that bill was a FISA ammendment, and Obama has since voted twice, on 2/12 and 7/09, to revoke telecom immunity. I don't completely agree with his stance on this, but he did say that he supported the ammendment because it put the power back in the hands of legislation, as opposed to the president's.
Also, as others are noting, Obama's plans tend towards ensuring accountability in the government through the use of technologies which make their actions visible. Specifically, he wants to create publicly accessable databases and websites to display this information. I don't have the same kind of confidence in McCain's ability or desire to do something concrete about this.
Personally, I just think Obama is smart enough to pick the battles that he can win. From what I've read, seen and heard, it's pretty clear to me what his goals are, and I have to say this is the first time I've ever found myself trusting, liking, or agreeing with a politician to any significant degree. I think Obama will do a fine job as president.