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User Interface of Major Oscilliscope Brands?
teddaw152 writes "I've been tasked with ordering an oscilloscope and a logic analyzer for use in a university physics lab, and have found several models that will likely suit our technical needs from the major manufacturers (Agilent, Tektronix, and LeCroy). However, I personally have only used legacy HP scopes, and thus I have no idea what modern features are must haves and which brand's user interface is the most intuitive. Is there anyone out there that has used modern Tektronix/Agilent/LeCroy scopes side by side and can comment on their thoughts from the purely subjective side?"
Are you really going to come to slashdot with a question including
"I have no idea what modern features are must haves and which brand's user interface is the most intuitive."
The clear answer to your dilemma is that the task should have fallen on someone else. Who is going to be using these things? If it's you, maybe you are best to stick with legacy HP scopes until you figure out what it is that you want.
Like the old ones didn't run under MS-Windows!
I like many features of the Agilent scope I use at work, but I cannot believe the stupidity of putting MS-Windows in an instrument. Like updates, do I let it do them (it tries) and risk trashing an expensive device, or do I let it become zombie on the network?
While it's worth trying, I would be somewhat surprised if you would be able to see any particularly modern scopes as people into amateur electronics rarely buy new equipment. Still though, some of the people there might have experience and opinions they can share, but the same holds true with slashdot.
As someone who has worked with a wide variety of scopes (and, to a lesser extent, logic analyzers) I feel largely 'meh' about the UI differences. They all have their quirks and pluses and generally similar features. In recent years I've (personally) leaned more toward Tektronix, but that's mostly because their hardware seems to fit my needs the best and they're pretty cheap (on ebay, see above ;).
By-the-by, if anyone could point me in the direction of a modern scope with 10+ bits of resolution it'd be greatly appreciated. My old Nicolet is starting to look a little dated ;).
Depending on the resources in your lab, and its purposes, you might find that a software-defined interface is more flexible for your needs. You can add any sort of interface or processing capabilities you want.
http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/205615
If it's a research lab, something like the above may be just what you want. If it's a teaching lab, and you want students to have access to real knobs and buttons, then my experience is specifically with Tektronix scopes that I use at work. Again, without knowing your price range, there are a wide range of options out there.
At the low end, the TDS5054B series has an interface likely identical to that of your old scope; they did a reasonable job of replicating the older style of analog interface but added on some processing utilities.
http://www.tek.com/products/oscilloscopes/tds5000b/
I've used a scope the DPO400 series as well. I found it's interface to be rather, well, different at first, with all the options not in the places I'd usually expect them to be with my other Tek scopes. But I eventually grew used to it and found it all perfectly fine - except that the probe connections for some reason don't allow use of our current probes. They work fine on all other scopes, and I see no reason why they molded the plastic on this scope to exclude them.
http://www.tek.com/products/oscilloscopes/dpo4000/
Finally, at the high end, you have something like the DSA8200. This scope runs windows, which you can get to to do some data analysis, but the scope itself is controlled through the Tek application. It looks and behaves like a piece of software; there are buttons on the front for some features, but they are just macro buttons to execute the commands; it's often faster to just use a mouse since the buttons only offer limited functionality.
http://www.tek.com/products/oscilloscopes/dsa8200/
Note how the Tek scopes are all mostly more expensive than the NI scope, with more limited flexiblity in the interface. Again, if I knew what bandwidth you needed or what your budget was or the purpose of your lab, I could give better recommendations.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
But they only have a 200 kHz input bandwidth!
Must haves? What? Besides being able to show a sine, square, and sawtooth waveform, what more are you looking for? Even the legacy oscilloscopes from HP that I've used has had a lot of the modern features that you see on the newer ones today. Sure, the newer ones do certain things more nicely, but there honestly isn't a huge difference, unless you're looking for things like color, USB support for capturing waveforms, super accurate frequency readings, etc... What you need to do is figure out what specifically is going to be needed with whatever projects you're doing.
This is what I use at work. (Specifically the TDS2000B.) I have no complaints with it. I've found this to be intuitive to use. It's simple and robust for what it is. Other people around me have to use the TDS1000B, and really the only difference is the lack of a multicolor display, USB support, and only 2 channels. I haven't had any issues showing our "trained monkeys" (pre-testers who have zero training or education in electronics) on how to use these oscilloscopes.
I don't think amateurs are going to fork our $10k+ for a modern oscilloscope. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people in /. land who are scientists (like me) who work in labs (like me) with oscilloscopes (like me).
From my experience in a calibration lab for two different major electronics companies in the past few years, I can wholeheartedly say that Agilent products are generally the best of said brands. (Needing recalibration less often, better interfaces (IMO), less glitches in software, better build / support, etc.). That said, they are often the more expensive brand. At an academic research lab, this factor may take the most consideration depending on your funding sources and reliability. FWIW, we viewed most of the Tektronix equipment as junk and would opt to use the Agilent equipment when available (but, "junk" is a relative term).
JM
A modern scope can cost $5,000 easy for a relatively low-end model. Amateur radio guys can be very frugal, and will often purchase an old analog model, so their opinion would likely be useless. Most hams would pick up a scope for less than $1000, so used Teks would be common, along with minor scope manufacturers from Asia.
I work for a company that makes scopes, so my opinion may be a little biased, but I recommend sorting the manufacturers alphabetically, and then pick the one on the top of the list. ;)
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
I'll start with the open admission that I've worked on Tektronix scope platforms, including software UI development, for the last 7 years or so. That said, our scopes really are the best! Here's why.
Many of the Tek scopes, especially the lower bandwidth ones, really shy away from loads of options menus to get at items. We still have the knob-per-channel ideas, and I know from user testing that's always heavily favored.
Recently (last 2 years) we've also gotten into the pan/zoom knob that makes it far, far easier to look at record lengths. I personally use that feature a lot when I've got high speed stuff over a long time (like SPI transactions compared against analog signals moving around)
Most of the Agilent/Lecroy stuff don't have these two big items (those are my big payoffs).
Also, although I can't speak to Agilent/Lecroy, I know that we release updated firmware on a very regular basis, and have no plans to stop. We continue to improve the UI, performance, applications, etc., long after the product is released. Many of the changes are often directly from user feedback (internal and external).
Another nice part is the Tektronix instruments are very well plugged in driver wise to communicate with them. We've got IVI drivers for labview/teststand, as well as a host of others.
What some of the other posters said is true as well - what really defines what you should get isn't always the UI, but the bandwidth and other features that you need. If you just need slow speed (~10 MHz) then a cheap solution might be just fine.
Our designs do have their flaws, but usability is rarely one I hear of.
From my experience in a calibration lab for two different major electronics companies in the past few years, I can wholeheartedly say that Agilent products are generally the best of said brands.
No argument there, but the price tag is usually at least 50% more for similar spec gear. I've used a variety of Agilent and Tek gear before. I actually prefer the interface on the Tek stuff. It's far easier to get to the common features of the tool and the interface is more responsive.
What it really comes down to is that the OP should go and talk with the engineers who will be using the gear and work out their requirements. Once you know what they need (and they'll be happy to tell you in the right language too) you can find a best cost/match for that. All the gear mentioned was good, so now all that is needed is to find one that the engineers are comfortable using. Most would be familiar with Tek gear because it comes at a decent price; that might be the go.
I drink to make other people interesting!
I highly doubt that you will find ...
(1) *qualified* people who've used oscilloscopes from all three of these manufacturers
(2) *and* who are willing to take the time to write out a lengthy reply to your questions.
You are, however, likely to find people who've used 1 brand (largely because their employers/universities had a contract with a specific supplier). So you may get some firm opinions about one company or another, but probably not much unbiased consensus.
So, the only way to form a complete, impartial comparison is for you to try out the scopes yourself; contact an authorized dealer for each of the major manufacturers, and ask to try out the models in your price range.
Doing your own due diligence is the only way that you'll be able to answer your questions to any high degree of satisfaction. This isn't an example of where you should trust random comments from the interwebz to help you do your job.
I wanted to quickly check the ref output of a lock-in amp the other day, so I grabbed an expensive digital storage scope, waited for it to boot up, spent 5 minutes going through various menus to try to get it to actually display a waveform, swore like fuckery, gave up trying to get sense out of it and went and found a nice old analogue one that instantly displayed the wavy lines I was after.
In my environment, 99% of the time I don't need or want a user interface - I just want to see the data.
I wanted to quickly check the ref output of a lock-in amp the other day, so I grabbed an expensive digital storage scope, waited for it to boot up, spent 5 minutes going through various menus to try to get it to actually display a waveform, swore like fuckery, gave up trying to get sense out of it and went and found a nice old analogue one that instantly displayed the wavy lines I was after.
In my environment, 99% of the time I don't need or want a user interface - I just want to see the data.
In my 35 years experience as a bench tech, a good analog 'scope is plenty for 99% of most jobs one needs a 'scope for. Quick and simple. Saving settings is as simple as leaving the control settings alone after you shut it down. I'd purchased a digital storage 'scope at one point with on-screen display and ended up reselling it and sticking with my trusty Tektronix 453. Great 'scope, and even now, some 35-40 years later, is still available through used test equipment dealers and calibration shops and is still considered a 'standard' among techs.
Cheers!
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.