Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Australia Developing Massive Electric Vehicle Grid

Posted by timothy on from the must-avert-mad-max-at-all-costs dept.

blairerickson writes "A US firm Thursday unveiled plans to build a massive one-billion-dollar charging network to power electric cars in Australia as it seeks cleaner and cheaper options to petrol. Better Place, which has built plug-in stations for electric vehicles in Israel and Denmark, has joined forces with Australian power company AGL and finance group Macquarie Capital to create an Australian network. Under the plan, the three cities will each have a network of between 200,000 and 250,000 charge stations by 2012 where drivers can plug in and power up their electric cars. The points would probably be at homes and businesses, car parks and shopping centres. In addition, 150 switch stations will be built in each city and on major freeways, where electric batteries can be automatically replaced in drive-in stations similar to a car wash." I hope they're talking to the car companies about the necessary standardization it would take to make this work, too.

26 of 260 comments (clear)

  1. Where are they getting the power? by thogard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is this the same grid who's owners are claiming there will be rolling blackouts again this summer because they don't have enough capacity?

    1. Re:Where are they getting the power? by sgt_doofey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not to mention the fact that nearly all electricity in Australia is generated by coal burning power stations. Not gonna be a clean mode of transport if you factor in where the electricity is generated from.

    2. Re:Where are they getting the power? by erikina · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which is a crying shame considering how much uranium and easy disposal options we have. Fear trumps reason again. Cue: 30 year outdated arguments..

    3. Re:Where are they getting the power? by erikina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Good point (about being able to painlessly shift). As for the Greens, I've stopped believing they are pro-environment but are anti-development.

    4. Re:Where are they getting the power? by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Which is a crying shame considering how much uranium and easy disposal options we have. Fear trumps reason again. Cue: 30 year outdated arguments.."

      The point is mute because as others have pointed out TFA claims that AGL will use renewables, however I have to object to your implied conclusion that Australia should build reactors.

      Australia has both huge uranium reserves AND huge renewable potential (enough to power most of SE Asia), why not sell the uranium and disposal services to other nations that don't have such an embarrasing wealth and under-utilisation of renewables? Personally I think the shame I cry over the most is how we consitently sell taxpayer funded IP for pennies, as in the case of The Sun King. IMHO we should be selling uranium and keeping ideas, not the other way around.

      The meat from the link:
      "The new technology Dr Shi helped develop has now been put into commercial production at this factory near Leipzig, in Germany. But it is protected by patent - he might have helped develop it but the Sun King can't use it. Indeed the failure by Pacific Solar to commercialise the technology so disheartened Dr Shi at the time that he considered giving away research altogether and starting a restaurant or a supermarket in Sydney...[snip: but he went back home to China]...Six years later Dr Shi and his wife have transformed $6 million in seed capital into a $6 billion company. Oh, not only did we sell his invention, we even built the factory for the Germans who are now pumping about a gigawatt of EXCESS back into the grid from rooftop PV - quite an achivement considering "sunshine" is not the first thing that comes to one's mind when they think about German weather.

      And while we are at it, why do we ship ore to China to smelt with coal, why not refine the metal where it is dug up using solar thermal and "value add" to our product? Even the small quantity we smelt is done with horrendous inefficiency and still makes a profit, eg: Aluminium in the south using a purpose built coal plant but the ore is dug up under the sweltering sun in the north. To get the ore from north to south there's all this infrastructure of railraods, ports and ships. If we can automate the world's largest diamond mine to operate with a dozen staff why can't we build intergrated mine/refine/power stations that take maybe 100 people to run? Plonk it on the ore deposit and away you go.

      If I had my tinfoil hat on I might think that a lot of the insanity in the economy is nothing more than a "full employment" scheme for western society.

      Politics: The Greens have two problems, first their nuclear dogma directly contradicts their platform of "science based policy". Second their leader is as boring as dogshit. I'm an old fart who was an adult during the Franklin thing and I admire Brown for what he did back then, I also admire him for standing up for the rule of law in the Hicks case even though Howard neutered him by branding him a "Hick's supporter". I really DO want to hear what he has to say but his voice and his predictable dogma are like auditory valium, two sentances and I'm asleep. The last time I remember him doing anything effective was the time he got the Greens locked out of parliment while the Chineese were visting, and when I say effective I mean he was effective in convincing the nation that he's a wack-job. (Not that different to how McCain has "lost his way", once that happens your credibility is dead to the casual observer and the one-eyed dogmatists are drawn to you like flies are drawn to a turd.)

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    5. Re:Where are they getting the power? by seamus5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, Australia does not have issues at all with electricity supply. You are probably getting confused with South Africa and as such I don't think your comment warrants being modded insightful.

    6. Re:Where are they getting the power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The point to remember here is AGL is a retailer only (FRMP) in the Australian Market and have no generating capability whatsoever. All of the enegry they sell they have bought off the national energy market and are onselling for a small markup. it's about as much of a paper-only company as you can get. they may _try_ to buy energy from renewable providers but they can't guarantee it.

    7. Re:Where are they getting the power? by Dogsballz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So offloading global warming thru buring fossils fuels is ok? Thats 99.9% probable. I'll take the 99.9% on nuclear anyday.

    8. Re:Where are they getting the power? by paintswithcolour · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Lots of things aren't 100% safe...should we stop using cars, boats, condoms?

      I guess you're implying that if a nuclear reactor goes then lots of people may die...which is somehow worse than a couple of people dying everyday...

    9. Re:Where are they getting the power? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They don't make a profit in their lifetime?

      That's not inherent to nuclear, but to the one-off nature of all the early nuclear plants. Standardized designs, pre-approved by the appropriate regulatory agencies, can be cheap and reliable. Look at France. Their reactors are so cheap and reliable they're a net exporter of electricity, and they make quite a bit of cash from it. The trouble with all the reactors built in the 60's we have now is that each one was scratch built at a time when no one really knew the best way to build one. They're all basically experimental.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    10. Re:Where are they getting the power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      When your car dies, you don't loose habitability in half a state...

      Look at chernobyl, the exclusion zone is huge and nobody wants to live or have a business (farm?) right outside of it, so it impacts the economy of an area the size of a whole state...

  2. Cars on the Grid is cleaner than Cars on the Pump by ciroknight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, but as has been said a billion times by now, the electrical grid is cheaper and cleaner than a half billion cars driving around burning hydrocarbons. Power plants make it a point to be as efficient as possible, whereas cars make almost the inverse point with IC engines.

    Looking forward, the grid is a lot easier to update to cleaner technologies as they come available. It is extremely tough to get anyone to put a new engine in their car because it might improve their gas mileage.

    --
    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
  3. Works fine in Australia by eebra82 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of the main reasons this might work in Australia is because it is an island. Cars don't get on and off this country, so buying a car and worrying about going to "non-compatible" countries won't be a problem.

    This is why their initiative may have a bigger effect than, say, a European country surrounded by differently positioned countries.

    --
    Full Tilt
    1. Re:Works fine in Australia by Techman83 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thing is, it's a rather large island and you are forgetting tasmania. I also wonder if there will be a charging station at the Nullaboor Roadhouse or maybe Meekathara or "insert random pissant town 1000+ kilometres from anywhere even remotely civilised".

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
  4. Now that I think about it... by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually, now that I think about it, Gillette is the wrong model. The current car model is the PC model: Pay a bunch of money up front for the computer, pay for software and support on an ongoing basis, eventually send the computer to the junkyard. Agassi's model is the cell phone model: Pay next to nothing up front, pay the service provider regular installments, replace or upgrade the hardware as needed for a nominal fee, but the hardware is all tied to the service provider. What you're paying for is not a car, but transportation.

    It's an intriguing concept, but it's hard to see it taking off in the U.S., where the automobile probably ranks ahead of diamond jewelry as a universally-recognized status symbol. Even Prius owners are making a statement about their lifestyle.

    But what do I know? I ride the bus.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
    1. Re:Now that I think about it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm just afraid that they end up lending too much from the phone industry (ie. the vendor lockin shit). It would suck to have a flat battery and not be able to charge your car in a station simply because your milage provider is not the same as the one which owns the station.

  5. With what money? by Jacques+Chester · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It says the funds will be raised by Macquarie, which is an investment bank. Who, exactly, in the current economic climate, going to give them that kind of money?

    --

    Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.

  6. Where are the electric cars? by mrbill1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is fantastic - but where are the electric cars?

  7. Re:Cars on the Grid is cleaner than Cars on the Pu by Hucko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You could always try steering out of the road. Why do you *have* to be in front? Are you going to get there significantly faster than the car behind you? My anecdotal tests have convinced me I can let 10 - 20 cars over take me and still not lose any noticeable time getting where I want to go.

    --
    Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
  8. Proprietary networks are bad by Grue · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hope they're talking to the car companies about the necessary standardization it would take to make this work, too.

    For all the press Better Place has been getting lately, I haven't seen an in-depth analysis of their business model, specifically as it relates to standardization of the infrastructure, including plugs and sockets.

    I have a feeling their charging plugs, sockets and protocols are proprietary. Anyone who attempts to produce a compatible charger/socket is going to find themselves on the end of a very aggressive lawsuit. Unless of course they've licensed the technology from Better Place.

    Our current gasoline-based system is deeply flawed, but at least it's open. We're replacing it with a marginally better system, but we're giving up that openness for a closed system owned by a single company.

    And then there's the conflict of interest issue. What incentive does a company have to reduce power consumption on a car when it's getting a cut of every charge?

    Shai Agassi is a smart and charismatic man, but who can really say they're happy with the cell phone business model? Most consumers aren't, but the cellular networks are making quite a profit.

  9. Hence the reason for the buildout. by ciroknight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because of the time required to charge vehicles, we'd need a cord station at pretty much every parking space everywhere for widespread use of pure electrics to be tenable.

    Surprise, that's exactly why they're starting the buildout now. You build it once, and you're done, you don't keep building it again and again, as you do with cars.

    I'm not saying that we have to immediately switch over to everyone on electric either. I'm not even saying that petrol should go the way of the dinosaur (in this case, literally). But for most drivers, electric is more than enough for every day life. And even "slow" charging batteries are just fine, because most of us spend most of our days inside, whilst our cars sit outside doing nothing but collecting heat.

    --
    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
  10. Re:Cars on the Grid is cleaner than Cars on the Pu by Psychotria · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Come off it. Yesterday I was in the left hand lane that was practically stopped. I could see the reason it was stopped... about 1.5km up the road the traffic was also stopped (because of an accident). The left land was slow because lots of people were trying to exit the motorway to avoid the congestion.

    When a small opportunity arose, I changed into another lane. I did not accelerate to 110km/hr because I could see that 1.5 km further on I'd be stuck anyway. What happened? I got wankers on their horns 'cause I did not go 110km/hr for the next 1.5km... This is the problem on the road: people somehow cannot see more than one car ahead. This is how I judge people. A LOT of people cannot think mid- to long-term. A lot of these same people make critical business decisions. No WONDER the economies of the world are in bad shape.

    Just for the record, I ended up further along the road than those fools behind me,giving me grief, dodging in-and-out of traffic, and not thinking beyond the next 2 seconds. If more people thought ahead things would BE BETTER. But, alas, the first car in front (for these fools) is always the one at fault. And they extend this stupid mentanility to all aspects of their life. The hare and the tortoise. We need more turtles

  11. Re:Cars on the Grid is cleaner than Cars on the Pu by daver00 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But how do you define efficient? Pure thermodynamic efficiency? Sure power plants win out - but what does that mean and exactly how useful is it? Power plants do not keep in line with demand - they cannot, as demand waxes and wanes the power grid supply more or less flat lines. How is that efficient?

    I drive an old car, but I bet that I use less fuel than the vast majority of people and I am unashamed of driving my old car because the numbers don't lie. Now not to be combative but I say screw you and the horse you rode in on to anyone who tells me my car is worse for the environment than theirs. For the record I drive a 1970s 'pickup truck' (we call it a ute) with a 5 litre V8 engine, carburettor, 4 speed gearbox and low geared differential. It gets 15 l/100km on the highway (work it out yourselves - thats our unit) and I have no idea what in the city, I do not care. Why don't I care? Because I spend about $10 - $20 a week on petrol. And down here that amounts to about 7-15 litres a week, or something like 2-4 gallons. A week. So how much more efficient is driving my car the way I do (as in: I don't) than commuting to work in a plug in hybrid? Much more, whats even better is I love my car.

    Back to my point: What electrical systems lack is an efficient means of *storing* energy, this is subtle but extremely important. It is basically THE issue when it comes to transportation. In my personal example I use bugger all fuel because I don't turn my car on: I walk, ride the train and bus, ride my bike, etc. I make less impact on the environment than feelgood hybrid driving fart sniffing hippies who plug theirs into the wall socket. Why? Because my hulking pile of metal with an oversized engine and two seats is recycled for one - its age alone means I have drawn out its embodied energy over 30 years, and my owning of it means one less new car needs to be built (another argument for another day). But most importantly it can be TURNED OFF.

    The power grid can't just be turned off.

    So how are we defining efficient operation? Electric vehicles are time inefficient - it takes a long time to charge them, so in a busy society how does that help us? What do trucking companies do? What do busy mums and dads do? Don't tell me they should just own two cars or two fleets of trucks: Then you double the required resources and construction energy required just to get back to the point we are at today, and the grid *still* can't be turned off like my V8 can. How efficient is that exactly?

    No, none of this electric car business makes sense on a large (whole of society) scale. The reason we use oil is because in net terms it IS the most efficient means of storing energy, above all else it is the most *economically efficient* means of achieving mass scale transportation. You can't deny it and electricity won't change this fact. I predict that oil will not be replaced as an energy storage mechanism for transportation, not in the near or distant future. Barring some ridiculous breakthrough in battery technology and a power grid that allows us to charge our cars with megawatts (some 6 meagwatts is transferred to your car from a pump. 6 million joules... every second.) of electricity, it is not going to happen. Of course if we start talking about making oil driven vehicles more efficient, now we're talking - that is smart.

  12. Re:Cars on the Grid is cleaner than Cars on the Pu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Also something to think about; if recharge prices were updated throughout the day to reflect what the demand on the grid was (perhaps slightly weighted to discourage peak usage period recharging), then it would be a good mechanism for flattening out electricity usage.

    If you don't think anyone is willing to stay up late to recharge at the cheapest time, you've not seen how many taxis drive around Sydney at 4am.

  13. Re:Sigh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    > Where's the renewable energy going to come from?

    In South Australia, the hot rocks at Innamincka and wind energy just about all along the coast.

    http://www.aussiehotrocks.com/?page_id=10

    http://www.tsinfrastructurefund.com/page/Infrastructure_Assets/Starfish_Hill_wind_farm

    http://www.rise.org.au/info/Applic/Windfarm/index.html

  14. Re:Cars on the Grid is cleaner than Cars on the Pu by Zironic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While a lot of what you say makes sense, driving an old car very little etc. However the second part of your post is bollocks.

    1) The grid can be turned off and scaled to meet demand
    2) Efficiency is measured in how much energy is lost, current petrol engines lose about 70% of the stored energy.
    3) As per point 2, Oil has nothing whatsoever to do with efficient storage, the reason we use oil is because it's there, someone else(nature) stored it for us so we don't care that it's inefficient as fuck
    4) We will run out of oil, nature creates it extremely slowly and we use it up rather quickly, people just argue about exactly when the oil will run out.
    5) Better energy storage (batteries) is what everyone is working on, however efficient energy storage doesn't have to be an electric battery, if we for example could efficiently produce oil and efficiently use oil then that would be a good renewable process.